Raghza's Ultimate Racing Seat v4.3

[raghza]

Hi everybody!
I want to share my humble racing seat build and hopefully get some great ideas for improvement.

So I've been a racing wheel user (and a Logitech enthusiast as it turns out lol) for about 15 years (started with the Formula Force GP, then Logitech Momo) and I've had my Logitech G25 since GT5 was released.

Right after the first laps with the G25 I knew that having the steering wheel mounted to a table will just not cut it, so the next day the Ultimate Racing Seat v1 was born:

I built it in a few hours from the material I got from disassembling an old cupboard.
I already had a seat from a BMW E30, so I positioned everything exactly like they would be in a real car and the seat is adjustable ofcourse.
During time and A LOT OF hours, my v1 got many improvements to improve it's strength and also the first mod, which was the Chillicoke's gear shifter mod. The mod was really simple (I just replaced the spring with a longer & stronger one) and made a big difference. So I ended up with what I called the v1.5.

When GT Sport was released, I had to get a Drive Hub to make the wheel work on the PS4. Could not be happier with this - not only was it super-easy to connect, it actually made the wheel function better than it had before (possibly because the PS4 now sees the G25 as G29)

About a month ago I had enough of the ghetto looks of the v1.5 so I bought the material to build the v2:

This time I built everything to be as solid as possible and also did the second mod, which was mounting the G25 pedals vertically. I kept the distance between the pedals roughly the same as it is originally, but the brake pedal is raised a little. This mod is awesome, since the pedals feel a lot sturdier and the feel is so much better. The driving position stayed the same as v1, because it's ideal for me and really gives a feeling of driving a real car.

Before I started building the v2, I had already ordered a bunch of modification parts, which included:
3DRAP steering wheel adapter
3DRAP clutch pedal mod
3DRAP throttle pedal mod
3DRAP brake pedal mod for console
3DRAP mod cambio step 1 H-Shifter v2 + carbon fibre replacement part
Zalem.es 320mm aluminum shifter paddles
Momo-style 330mm steering wheel from Aliexpress

When everything had arrived, it was time for the v2.5:

I really like the 3D-printed steering wheel adapter. It looks great and feels strong. However it's meant for 4mm bolts, but the standard steering wheels use 5mm bolts, so when I attached the steering wheel with the supplied 4mm bolts, there was a little play due to smaller bolt head size. I made one hole of the adapter big enough to fit a 5mm bolt that came with the steering wheel and that did the trick. Over time I might replace all other bolts to 5mm as well.

The 320mm shifter paddles are great, cut from solid piece of aluminum and the perfect size for my 330mm wheel.
Here's a picture of the adapter and the paddles attached.

The pedal mods for the clutch and the throttle are fine, they made both of the pedals a bit harder and are definitely an improvement.
However I am totally amazed with the brake mod, which is a little soft thingy that you're supposed to screw inside the spring of the brake pedal. I don't know how, but this makes the brake pedal function just like in a real car i.e. you don't have to press it against the floor and it will feel hard. One of the best mods so far!

The 330mm steering wheel is a LOT bigger than the original G25 wheel, so it will take some getting used to. However I don't think the original G25 force feedback is strong enough for the bigger wheel (which is actually lighter in weight compared to the original), at least on the PS4 and GT Sport where you can't adjust much.

I tried the shifter mod (it is very easy to install/uninstall), but I didn't like it at all: The shifter would not center itself, I could not get into 1st or 3rd and also had problems going into reverse. I might look into it and try to trim the parts so they would work and feel better, but at the moment the Chillicoke's mod is just fine for me (after all I'm using the paddle shifter about 80% of the time).

So that is how my Ultimate Racing Seat (URS) v2.5 sits at the moment.

I've created some sketches of my plan to build a custom handbrake for it, but other than that I'm mainly looking for ideas on improving the strength of the steering wheel (both structuar and force feedback wise), but I really don't have any.

I've found these videos on Youtube:




But none of them give any information about the build. I'd like to have specific details on what parts to buy and how to build it together.
I believe upgrading to bigger motors and belt drive will make a huge different, but although I've been learning and working in IT for many years, I don't really know what's inside my steering wheel and how it works, so I don't think I would be able to do such an upgrade just on my own knowledge.

I also know about the Ricmotech load-cell mod for the brake pedal, but I'm not looking into it at the moment, because I think that the 10x cheaper 3DRAP brake mod is currently good enough for me.

Also, I know that I could just get the Fanatec components, but that is not my goal - my aim is to improve the G25 set a lot further and only when it should die beyond repair, will I think of upgrading to Fanatec.

So if you have any ideas on other modifications or can give me any information about the builds seen on these Youtube videos, I'd greatly appreciate it!



Full list of the components on my URS v2.5 (v2.6 update 13/06/2018; v2.61 update 25/10/2018; v3.0 12/12/2019; v3.1 16/01/2020; v3.2 25/04/2020; v3.3 10/01/2021; v4.0 19.03.2022):

Racing seat built from 22mm wood
TV stand for 55" 4K screen from 22mm wood (v3.3)
Sabelt bucket seat (v3.1)
FIA seat brackets (v3.1)
Sparco seat adjusters (v3.1)
BMW E30 seat - REMOVED
Logitech G25 - REMOVED
Fanatec Clubsport 2.5 wheelbase (v3.0)
Fanatec BMW M3 GT2 v1 steering wheel (v3.0) - REMOVED
Fanatec BMW M3 GT2 v2 steering wheel (v4.3)
Fanatec Button Caps and Sticker Set for steering wheel (v4.3)
Fanatec ClubSport v1.5 handbrake (v3.2)
CollectiveMinds CoPilot (v3.0) - REMOVED
CollectiveMinds Drive Hub (v2.0.1)
Logitech G25 H-shifter - REMOVED
Chillicoke's shifter feel mod - REMOVED
3DRAP steering wheel adapter - REMOVED
Fanatec CSL Loadcell Pedals, invert-mounted (v4.0)
Fanatec CSL Pedals Tuning Kit (v4.0)
CSL Pedals TM (red) spring mod for LC (v4.3)
2 x Dayton Audio BST-1 50W bass shakers front+rear (v4.1)
Nobsound TPA3116 Mini 2x50W Digital Amplifier (v4.1)
SimHub for bass shakers management (v4.1)
PSVR2 (v4.2)
Vertically mounted Logitech pedals - REMOVED
3DRAP clutch pedal mod - REMOVED
3DRAP throttle pedal mod - REMOVED
3DRAP brake pedal mod for console - REMOVED
Zalem.es 320mm aluminum shifter paddles - REMOVED
Momo-style 330mm steering wheel from Aliexpress - REMOVED
RC 540 heatsinks for the motors (v2.6) - REMOVED
Heatsink for the FET chips (v2.6) - REMOVED
75mm hole for the fan (v2.6) - REMOVED
Air vents at the front for air flow (v2.6) - REMOVED
12V 80x80mm PC case fan (v2.6) - REMOVED
12V 1.5A DC adapter for the fan (v2.6) - REMOVED
30V 3A DC adapter for the wheel (v2.6) - REMOVED
Zalem.es steering wheel adapter (v2.61) - REMOVED

 

[super_gt]

but other than that I'm mainly looking for ideas on improving the strength of the steering wheel (both structuar and force feedback wise), but I really don't have any.

I've found these videos on Youtube:




But none of them give any information about the build. I'd like to have specific details on what parts to buy and how to build it together.
I believe upgrading to bigger motors and belt drive will make a huge different, but although I've been learning and working in IT for many years, I don't really know what's inside my steering wheel and how it works, so I don't think I would be able to do such an upgrade just on my own knowledge.

@neema_t tried to do G27 belt drive mod,he might be able to help you.

 

[raghza]

Thanks!
That's a great find - a really good thread with lots of know-how.

 

[sesselpupser]

Thanks!
That's a great find - a really good thread with lots of know-how.

You should know, though, I still haven't gotten anywhere with it because I got a job in electronics and then became completely sick of doing it as a hobby, but I'm slowly coming back around to it. If you've got any questions I can try to help but I'm not sure how much use I can be as I've forgotten everything that was in my thread.

@super_gt, thanks for the tag!

 

[raghza]

I wonder if it would just be possible to increase the speed and torque of the original motors? Or swap the motors to more capable ones, without rebuilding the whole steering wheel system? It seems like a huge step to take on at once, so I would like to start small and then go up from there...

EDIT: Gonna leave a few links here that may become useful at some point:
http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/8498-diy-discussion-increasing-power-to-the-g25-g27-wheels/



http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1854252

http://perfectsimracer.com/optimizing-logitech-g27/

 

[sesselpupser]

I don't really think it is, to be honest. The MOSFETs that boost the signal from the microcontroller up to the motor drive power are quite weak and really badly cooled, off the top of my head they're capable of about 36W but there's no heatsink, they've got a pad on the bottom that's supposed to dissipate heat through the PCB.

There is a bit of headroom as you'd expect, but to increase the torque or rpm of the motor you need to either increase the voltage or decrease the resistance of the motor, either way you're increasing the current through the MOSFETs and motors' coil windings.

Your best bet to improve the performance without replacing any of the parts would be to stick some heatsinks to the FETs, get motor heatsinks, point fans at both then get a variable power supply with a current limiter that's just below the FETs' limits, turn the voltage up and that should, in theory, mean the motor will draw more current and the FETs will operate closer to their limits but a bit more safely than they were designed to. Maybe find some replacement FETs before you start so if you do kill them you have a fallback, they should be a fairly reliable first point of failure as I'd imagine everything else can handle the higher power. I really couldn't say how much difference this would make, I'd be surprised if you really noticed it...

Disclaimer: I've only just woken up and as I said, I haven't thought about this for some time. If you set fire to something, which is very possible, please don't blame me!

 

[raghza]

Thanks for thinking with me
As I read from some of the links above, by adding heatsinks to the FETs and active cooling, it would work with an uprated power supply (~150W) and it would also be fairly easy to build. Only thing though, I haven't seen any evidence that it would actually make a difference. Also since I drive on PS4 and GT Sport, I will not have the precise calibration settings like on a PC.
I will dig the internet and educate myself for a few weeks, but what I've learnt so far is that you could:
1) Add heatsinks to the FETs on the PCB
2) Add active cooling
3) Use a DC 24V 6.5A 150W power supply
What I don't know is, if these mods will actually change anything remarkably.

Another mod that I've seen mentioned in a few threads but have not seen any pictures of, is adding/upgrading the centering spring of the wheel to make the wheel return to the centre position quicker.
That would definitely be a mod I'd be interested in (the original centering speed is too slow), so if you have any information whatsoever about it, please share it with me

EDIT: http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/8498-diy-discussion-increasing-power-to-the-g25-g27-wheels/?page=4
As mentioned here, I could also use a 30V power supply to increase the speed and torque of the motors. But which would be better? 24V with 6.5A or 30V with ~2.5A?
Higher voltage increases speed and higher amperage increases torque, am I right?

 

[Scaff]

Biggest mod you could make from an immersion point of view would be to find a way of mounting the screen much closer to you.

As GTS has a fixed FOV that would allow you to correct that.

 

[raghza]

Biggest mod you could make from an immersion point of view would be to find a way of mounting the screen much closer to you.

As GTS has a fixed FOV that would allow you to correct that.

I believe my phone's camera has a bit of a wide angle effect, which makes the screen look smaller than it is.
It's a 48" screen and I can push the rig really close to it, however I prefer it to be at the distance similar as seen on the pictures, because it's easier on my eyes and I'm able to see everything on the screen (including the RPM and gear indicator, which get somewhat hidden behind the bigger steering wheel if the screen is too close).

However now that you said it, I will try today with the closest I can get and see if I like it better

 

[Scaff]

I believe my phone's camera has a bit of a wide angle effect, which makes the screen look smaller than it is.
It's a 48" screen and I can push the rig really close to it, however I prefer it to be at the distance similar as seen on the pictures, because it's easier on my eyes and I'm able to see everything on the screen (including the RPM and gear indicator, which get somewhat hidden behind the bigger steering wheel if the screen is too close).

However now that you said it, I will try today with the closest I can get and see if I like it better

I sit 45" away from a 50" screen and GTS locked FOV is still too wide for that.

It's a pain we can't adjust it, as getting the right FOV makes a massive difference.

 

[raghza]

I sit 45" away from a 50" screen and GTS locked FOV is still too wide for that.

It's a pain we can't adjust it, as getting the right FOV makes a massive difference.

The distance on the pictures is maybe 50-52" from the screen and I can move it as close as 40" I believe, but I will have to try whether I like sitting that close.

Totally agree about the FOV.

 

[Scaff]

The distance on the pictures is maybe 50-52" from the screen and I can move it as close as 40" I believe, but I will have to try whether I like sitting that close.

Totally agree about the FOV.

Give it a go, takes a bit of getting used to, but I wouldn't do anything different now.

 

[raghza]

Coming back to the modifications, does anybody have any information about upgrading the centering spring?

I've also been reading for several hours even though I should be working lol, and I will proceed with the following mods:
1) First make sure the cooling is spot on: add RC 540 heatsinks to the motors, heatsinks on the FET's, a big fan with speed control on the top, open up the vent holes and add small fan(s) to suck the hot air out.
2) Get a 28-31V 2.5-3.0A (30V 3.0A seems the best) power supply, attach a correct size connector (I think the G25 uses 2.5mm?) to it and connect it to the wheel.
3) Enjoy the improvement in speed thanks to higher voltage
4) Enjoy the improvement in torque thanks to higher amperage.

 

[sesselpupser]

It doesn't quite work that way, although I do really admire your enthusiasm! Increasing the current rating of your power supply alone will do nothing. Current is the product of applying a voltage across a conductor that has (due to the laws of physics) resistance. Applying the same voltage to the same resistance will give you the same current every time.

However, the resistance of a conductor changes with heat, in the case of copper (which is what the motor's windings are made of) the resistance goes up as it gets hotter and the current goes down. My suggestion to improve the cooling primarily means this will be less of a problem, but it's quite well-known by now that G27s (and probably all wheels) get weaker as any single session progresses, better cooling would mitigate that.

Also by improving the cooling you're hopefully getting the FETs and motors to run a bit cooler under their usual load, so you can (in theory!) increase the voltage which will increase the current the motors will draw, which increases the force the motors can exert on you. I'm honestly not sure how the torque/rpm relationship works though so I guess you'd get both effects? I'm not sure.

If you massively exceed the original current rating and your wheel tries to draw that much it will literally explode - the FETs will, anyway. Your typical power supply's voltage will drop as you approach the maximum current so the G27's default supply has been picked to reduce the likelihood that anything will catch fire should something go wrong, a 24V 6A supply would turn it into a firework should one of your motors short out...


Edit: Also the centering spring isn't an actual spring, it's an effect the wheel feedback does to mimic the castor angle of a real car. Not sure you can do anything about it on a PS4, I don't think changes you make in the PC software get stored in the wheel itself (some PC peripherals do that, though).

 

[raghza]

Thanks for the thorough answer!
I read a bunch of threads this morning and an upgraded power supply paired with good cooling should make quite a difference on both the speed and the torque of the wheel.
If it so happens that the "actual results" described in those threads were either fake or placebo, upgrading the cooling of the motors and the PCB will still be a good improvement, as my wheel already gets warm and FFB weakens after some longer sessions.
Also a new power supply will cost around 12-15€, so if it doesn't work, I can just throw it away and suffer no loss

I think I will go ahead and order the parts needed and then we'll see, if it does make a difference or not.

I know that there is no actual spring there, but I have read posts from several people who claim to have added a spring themselves to quicken the time needed for the wheel to centre itself. No pics or other details though, so that's why I was wondering about that...

 

[raghza]

While I'm waiting for the heatsinks and the new power supply to arrive, I discovered a product called ButtKicker Gamer2:
https://thebuttkicker.com/buttkicker-gamer2-playseat-edition/

This seems like a very nice addition to my racing seat, but I was wondering, if there are any better/cheaper alternatives? There are the traditional bass shakers, but how are they compared to the ButtKicker?

I also need to see, if I can make enough space under the seat to fit it - if not, I'm going to have to find a new seat.


I also read that paired with the Drive Hub, I should be able to use a TH8A/TH8RS shifter when I'd connect it to the Drive Hub's accessory port?
Is that correct and would it be worth the upgrade?

EDIT: Come to think of it, would an external handbrake work in a similar fashion?
EDIT2: Wow. I think it will work.


Since there is just one accessory port on the Drive Hub, I think I could use either a different shifter or a handbrake? Surely I couldn't just use a USB hub to use both at the same time?

EDIT3: OH WOW. I CAN.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...l-converter-works-with-gt-sport.358306/page-3

I'm already looking for a new shifter and a handbrake. This is going to be epic.

 

[Coryd]

So just to be clear, with a PS4 and a Drive Hub, I could use a TH8A shifter and an external handbrake with a Logitech G29? If so, this is going to blow my mind.

 

[raghza]

Yes, that is what I understood from reading some of the threads and watching some videos.
You can just use a USB hub to extend the Accessory port on the Drive Hub and connect whatever you like there.

I'm just thinking how to make it look nice, since I will be needing the buttons on the G25 gearbox to still work, but I wouldn't like to have 2 gearboxes on my racing seat.
Perhaps take the button board and build a button box for it...

 

[raghza]

So the heatsinks arrived and they look cool and hopefully do a fine job keeping the little electric motors cool.

I also ordered the 30V 3A power supply but I imagine it will take some time to arrive.
I think I will already start doing the cooling, since I can feel the motors getting quite warm already and after long sessions the FFB definitely gets weaker.
I'm not sure which heatsinks to use on the FETs and how to fix them in place. The thermal paste will somewhat act as an adhesive, but possibly the easiest would be to fix them with zip ties around the board.

 

[raghza]

So I connected the new 30V 3A power supply just to see if the wheel works with it and right away some noticeable results:

Left is the new power supply, right is the original one.

Now what's left to do is the cooling and it'll be ready for an ingame test.

 

[raghza]

Finished yesterday and the results are wonderful!
I will share photos later today, but overall the build took ~3h all together and now the speed and the torque of the wheel are much stronger and a 12V fan keeps everything very cool while being silent.
I don't have any tools to measure it, but I'd say that the torque is now about 1.5 times stronger with the 330mm wheel than it was with the small original wheel. Also the speed is just amazing, it's very possible to catch slides now by just letting go of the wheel.
URS v2.6 completed!

 

[raghza]

Sorry, it's been a busy few days, but here are some pictures.

The wheel opened up, thermal paste and the heatsinks installed. The motor heatsinks just snapped in place, for the FETs I used one from a motherboard and secured it with a strong ziptie.

Hole for the fan cut (73mm diameter, which is just perfect for a 80mm fan) and opening up the air vents at the front. The two on the sides are already there, you just need to cut away some soft plastic to open them up. I also cut a big hole in the center with a hot knife.

The mess. Gf was not amused.

And everything put back together.

I have to say that this might be the best mod I've done. The FFB is so much stronger it's a joy. I lost quite a lot of it when I swapped the wheel for a bigger one and now it's all back and even quite a lot stronger than before.
What I enjoy even more, is the speed. Previously the wheel couldn't keep up with the front wheels of the car, but now it stays perfectly in sync. I have never been able to do long slalom drifts in GT Sport, but now I can and it's actually not that hard - you just need to let the wheel do all the work and catch it in time.

The cooling is amazing too. The fan works at 12V but it's so silent that when the fans on my PS4 Pro kick in, they are much more audible than the fan on the wheel. It also keeps it very cool - I had a 3h session and the temperature did not change. Previously the motors would get warm after 10 minutes and very warm to the point where the FFB would start to fade after ~30-40 minutes. Now, after 3 hours, no change.

And one more video to finish. I noticed that the initiation is not performed at full speed. The speed is actually even faster in-game.

 

[raghza]

Removed the 3D printed steering wheel adapter from 3Drap and bought a CNC'd one from Zalem.es.

The 3D printed one was unable to withstand the force and the bolts started to get loose after a while of driving, causing terrible wobble. Also the 3D printed material itself is not nearly as rigid as metal, so even with all the bolts tightened to the max, there was some side-to-side play in the wheel.
The new adapter from Zalem.es is CNC'd and very nice and rigid. No play whatsoever and it also goes well with the Zalem.es shift paddles.

I also removed the center ring from the steering wheel, because it being plastic, it was also reducing rigidity. Doesn't look as good without it, but this build is functionality over looks anyway...

 

[raghza]

The wheel has held up nicely - it doesn't get hot at all and I don't get any FF fade.
But I have a feeling that I've reached the reasonable limit of how you can improve your G25, so I believe it is time to start thinking of changing the wheel base. My main complaint is the lazy and detail-lacking FF compared to some more expensive wheels.

I read some reviews from GTP users and I'm thinking of getting either a T300RS or a T500RS and keep my pedals and possibly the shifter as well? I found the adapter to connect Logitech pedals to Thrustmaster wheel base, but can I use the same adapter for the shifter too?
Is the FF of the T500RS much better than the T300RS?
Thrustmaster wheels tend to break - is it usually something that can be fixed with a little DIY or do they just die and that's the end of it?
The T500RS comes with a set of pedals - are those any good?

Are there any other options around the same price that I should look into? I'm mainly looking for powerful, responsive and detailed Force Feedback for GT Sport and future Gran Turismo games

 

[super_gt]

To buy T500RS which is almost 10 years old for future Gran Turismo games sounds strange.

 

[rj5992]

Thanks for updating this @raghza , I hadn't seen this post before and now I'm seriously considering the power adapter, heatsink and FET mod you did.

 

[raghza]

To buy T500RS which is almost 10 years old for future Gran Turismo games sounds strange.

It might be, I don't know - that's why I posted my questions. I've always had only Logitech wheels so I don't know much about other brands. Please recommend what would be other options. My main criteria is excellent FF and versatility (by being able to use components from other brands e.g. my Logitech pedals with DriveHub ).
I'm not exactly concerned by the age of the wheel, since the G25 this build is based on, is ancient.

 

[rj5992]

It might be, I don't know - that's why I posted my questions. I've always had only Logitech wheels so I don't know much about other brands. Please recommend what would be other options. My main criteria is excellent FF and versatility (by being able to use components from other brands e.g. my Logitech pedals with DriveHub ).
I'm not exactly concerned by the age of the wheel, since the G25 this build is based on, is ancient.

To be honest, I would suggest that you stick with the G25 unless you decide to go for a big jump and opt for a Fanatec CSL. You talked about future proofing the system - to truly do that you'd have to wait for the next generation of consoles in a couple of years time. Licenses are so delicate that you can never be certain of future support - just look at how the T300 is officially supported on PS4 but the T500 got left behind. It's the same story with Fanatec.

If you were looking for a stop gap 'improvement' then you could look at a second-hand Fanatec CSR or Thrustmaster T500. Otherwise, I suggest you mentally set aside the money you would otherwise spend and wait to see how the chips fall when the new consoles land.

 

[super_gt]

I fully agree with @rj5992. Wait for PS5 officially licensed wheels and meanwhile save more money for a better wheel.

 

[rj5992]

@raghza , This might be a stupid question but do you have the 80mm fan drawing hot air out of the casing or forcing cool air in? Any idea which would be better?