Research: It's how you educate yourself...

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tha_con

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Here, info on the Cell Processor. It's quite impressive if you understand what they are saying. Also derails certain claims made by certain uneducated net nerds who say it's really a weak processor...IF you understnad what they are saying.

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1727

Information on Cell that is easier to understand (I recommend this one for people who don't like numbers):
http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasiaarchivedetail/000830


Playstation3 stats:
http://news.com.com/PlayStation+3+s...3-5709571.html?part=rss&tag=5709571&subj=news

Xbox 360 stats:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm

PS3 Memory:
• 256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz
• 256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz

X360 Memory:
512 MB of 700 MHz GDDR3 RAM

So, they both have the same AMOUNT, but that's not what's important. PS3 has memory broken into two sections, and one runs over 3 times faster than X360, KEY FACTOR. You can have all the memory in the world, but without the power to push it around efficiently it's useless. And while 700Mhz isn't bad, I'm sure that 512 is a bit overkill at such a low clock speed, with a bigger bus, MS could have really had a killer here.


Shader Operations Per Second:
PS3: 100 billion
X360:48 billion shader operations per second

sources:
PS3: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/16/news_6124681.html
X360: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm

Dot Products Per Second:
PS3: 51 Billion
X360: 9 Billion

sources:
PS3: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/16/news_6124681.html
X360: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm

Overall System Floating-Point Performance
PS3: 2Tflops
X360: 1Tflop

sources:
PS3: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/16/news_6124681.html
X360: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm



I can go on and on. My point is not to show that PS3 has more power, in fact, there are areas that it does not, however, my point is, it only takes a little time to skew numbers.

Though I do believe PS3 will be the bigger heavy hitter, I think a lot of people aren't really SEEING the numbers here. It's all in the links, just look, read, and understand.
 
It's a shame the ram on the ps3 is split in half, would have made more sense to have a lump of 512 that could be split as needed, 512 of the uber fast stuff :D

Anyways, it's a beast, and yes, people can compare specs all they want saying crap like the ps3 only having one core cpu etc, but the fact remains, it's going to be "a bit" fast. I guess some people like to talk crap about machines they havn't seen because they don't like the other machine for some pathetic reason. "OMG OMG THE PS3 HAZ NEW TECHNOLGY AND PWNZ TEH 360" "NO D00D THE XBOX 360 IS BETTA ONLINE AND HAS 3 CPUZ" blah blah

I just hope sony havn't over complicated things again though..

Programming Cell will be a challenge.
Click to expand...
 
"In what must come as a relief to developers, Epic Games' Tim Sweeney was on hand to vouch for the PS3, saying it was "easy to program for" and that Epic had received its first PS3 hardware two months ago. He proved the tech demo was real-time by showing it again and by manipulating the camera and zooming in. "

Apparently it's not too difficult if Tim Sweeney can get the Unreal demo running in two months and he say's it's "easy to program for".


And the article you quoted, while very good and informative, is based off of guess work as far as programming goes, because tools etc were not available to the general public, let alone information on them. I'm guessing the Development Kits make the job a little easier than he describes.
 
Not to go off-topic, but in last week's E3 event, I heard Unreal Tournament 2007 may find itself on the PS3. I've only played one Unreal Tournament (the very first), and I have huge respect for the series. Would sure be interesting to see this on the PS3.

It is nice to see someone school us on what the PS3 is capable of. And again, all tha_con is stating is that this isn't a PS3 vs. XBOX360 thread, more like a little resource we can use to look up on just what the PS3 has to offer. Mad respect to you for the research, tha_con.
 
I think another problem with comparing the two is that Sony's Cell processor is basically new technology. We don't really have much experience as gamers with how games will run on it. It makes comparing straight numbers almost pointless.
 
Maven
I think another problem with comparing the two is that Sony's Cell processor is basically new technology. We don't really have much experience as gamers with how games will run on it.
Click to expand...
That's what makes me the most nervous. PS2 came out with eccentric architecture and called it... their emotion engine™. Microsoft just laughed, threw together a tidy and straightforward (easy to write for) gaming PC, put 'er in a big black box and called it their Xbox.

For sheer capability and performance, it's been mopping the floor with PS2 ever since.

And now you see a very similar phenomenon occurring. Xbox 360 is using the technology of the times, tried and familiar, whilst PS3 gallivants off into the land of Cells and emotions once again. We mightn't see games which fully milk the beast for another 2 years out (remember the PS2's curve).

I just fear the past repeating itself; I hope my fears are for naught!

-GNJ-
 
code_kev
It's a shame the ram on the ps3 is split in half, would have made more sense to have a lump of 512 that could be split as needed, 512 of the uber fast stuff :D

Anyways, it's a beast, and yes, people can compare specs all they want saying crap like the ps3 only having one core cpu etc, but the fact remains, it's going to be "a bit" fast. I guess some people like to talk crap about machines they havn't seen because they don't like the other machine for some pathetic reason. "OMG OMG THE PS3 HAZ NEW TECHNOLGY AND PWNZ TEH 360" "NO D00D THE XBOX 360 IS BETTA ONLINE AND HAS 3 CPUZ" blah blah

I just hope sony havn't over complicated things again though..
Click to expand...
The Ram on the PS3 is Dedicated, The X360s 512 is actually Shared RAM. The PS3 will excell in this area. Its basically like having Shared Video memory on a computer. The X360 actually only has one CPU and has 3 cores. Im really getting tired of everyone saying it has 3 cpus. This is like me going around and saying my Pentium 4 System has 2 3GHz CPUs.
 
GuyNamedJohn
That's what makes me the most nervous. PS2 came out with eccentric architecture and called it... their emotion engine™. Microsoft just laughed, threw together a tidy and straightforward (easy to write for) gaming PC, put 'er in a big black box and called it their Xbox.

For sheer capability and performance, it's been mopping the floor with PS2 ever since.

And now you see a very similar phenomenon occurring. Xbox 360 is using the technology of the times, tried and familiar, whilst PS3 gallivants off into the land of Cells and emotions once again. We mightn't see games which fully milk the beast for another 2 years out (remember the PS2's curve).

I just fear the past repeating itself; I hope my fears are for naught!

-GNJ-
Click to expand...

Actually you aren't looking at the whole picture.


First the PS2's learning curve was such because sony did not provide adequate tools for developers to create games. After the years Sony offered better tools, thus the curve was lowered and games became easier to develop.

Second, PS3 cannot be entirely difficult to program for, because Two months is not a lot of time. And for Epic Games to have a development kit for only Two months, and churn out a wonderful rendition of Unreal 3.0, in real time, with no frame drops, then it certainly cannot be difficult to develop for.

What it looks like to me, is you take things only at face value, as do most consumers, do some more research and you'll start to uncover more, as is the intent of this thread.
 
I always found it funny how that initially developers were saying how that the PS2 was going to be easy to develop for. Then later on they all said it was a pain :) Always made me wonder which was more difficult in terms of getting the maximum out the hardware, the PS1 or the PS2.

It sounds like the PS3 isn't going to be much different in that respect unfortunately.
 
It's nice to see you back again, GuyNamedJohn. Based on your logic, you stated that the PS2 had completely new technology, while the XBOX used more familiar grounds. Now the PS3 has more new technology while the XBOX360 is kind of using current trends. So let me ask you and others...

Who has the upper hand in the PS3/XBOX360 fight? Or is there one? Is it too early to judge right now? What do you think?
 
Well hell John it's good to "be seen" as they say (for some reason), old buddy.

As to your proposed topic on who's got the upper hand- :lol: -that, indeed, is the $64,000 question.

German Muscle
The Ram on the PS2 is Dedicated, The X360s 512 is actually Shared RAM. The PS2 will excell in this area.
Click to expand...
I'm fairly certain you are misspeaking here and that you mean to say PS3. Correct?
 
GuyNamedJohn
Well hell John it's good to "be seen" as they say (for some reason), old buddy.

As to your proposed topic on who's got the upper hand- :lol: -that, indeed, is the $64,000 question.

I'm fairly certain you are misspeaking here and that you mean to say PS3. Correct?
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing, and I'm positive he's thinking that, lol.
 
Both systems will require a lot of learning for programmers Both are going to use new hardware. The argument was that the old XBox used standard PC hardware. The new one doesn't. Developers working on the Playstation II got used to working with multiple processors, developers working on the XBox didn't. As well, the new Playstation's multi-processor system is more symmetrical and flexible than the old one. In the PS2, the processors worked (slightly) differently from each other, and there was only one path information could take throught the pipeline. The new system is more flexible in the way information can be routed through the various sub-processors (the SPEs) and any of them can be programmed to perform any task.

The XBox will have a six month lead time, and will surely have many developers working on many great titles. One major concern that developers had with the original XBox was, "Will it be around long enough for us to make enough money to offset the development costs?" I don't think anyone is wondering anymore. Microsoft is not my favorite company by a long shot, but I have to admit they did better than I expected them to with the original.

The Playstation 3 will have the edge in performance, so the situation is almost reversed from the last time around. Online play will be lacking, out of the box, but the Playstation has the better media format, and better compatibility with more types of peripherals. Sony still has the Japanese market locked up, and they have a better stable of developers, but Microsoft has a fat cash cushion and a reputation for marketing genius. The Playstation 3 will be compatible with older games, while the XBox 360 will only be compatible with 'select' older games.

In short, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. The Playstation certainly will have the edge, performance wise. Both will almost certainly do well in the marketplace, and competition will continue. Personally, I'll be buying a PS3, but not until there are a number of new titles for it and the price has come down a bit.
 
code_kev
It's a shame the ram on the ps3 is split in half, would have made more sense to have a lump of 512 that could be split as needed, 512 of the uber fast stuff :D
Click to expand...

From Gamespot's PS3 Inside and Out article, it says that "Nvidia also claims that the RSX can take advantage of the combined 512MB since it is capable of writing directly to system memory." However, it didn't say if the Cell Processor can do the opposite way in the same manner, which I doubt that it does.
 
code_kev
It's a shame the ram on the ps3 is split in half, would have made more sense to have a lump of 512 that could be split as needed, 512 of the uber fast stuff :D
Click to expand...

Yenno I didn't notice this until now, lol.

But I consider the 3.2Ghz for system memory "uber fast".

Also dedicated memory is much more stable and provides better performance than shared.

Just look at your PC. Imagine if it had memory dedicated strictly for one program (let's say photoshop, just because it can be intense). Can you imagine how much more efficiently it would perform?

In most cases, memory tends to be wasted when it's shared, by splitting it up you avoid that and allow one component to work much more efficiently.
 
tha_con
Yenno I didn't notice this until now, lol.

But I consider the 3.2Ghz for system memory "uber fast".

Also dedicated memory is much more stable and provides better performance than shared.

Just look at your PC. Imagine if it had memory dedicated strictly for one program (let's say photoshop, just because it can be intense). Can you imagine how much more efficiently it would perform?

In most cases, memory tends to be wasted when it's shared, by splitting it up you avoid that and allow one component to work much more efficiently.
Click to expand...

photoshop with 512MB dedicated ram would be blistering fast, i'd need a fire extinguisher
 
full_wick
Both systems will require a lot of learning for programmers Both are going to use new hardware. The argument was that the old XBox used standard PC hardware. The new one doesn't. Developers working on the Playstation II got used to working with multiple processors, developers working on the XBox didn't.
Click to expand...

Main thing said.

Sony had it's first up-and-running multiprocessor console way back in 2000. "GSCube" was a working station made especially for rendering and R&D assets for programming in multi-core enviroment.

It was made from 16 PS2 motherboards (with all the chips up) likend together. It was a base for developing both The Cell and all the issues regarding multi-core programming and graphics rendering. GSCube was used as the main render station for FF: The Spirtis Within movie. So, speaking about "having - not having" experience, you can be pretty sure that Sony did it's job in development and preparing scripts for future developing in multicore-distributional enviroment years ago.

Love it or not, but Sony is always two steps ahead of everyone.
 

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