Return to GTS - driving standards rant

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IAMDOODLEBUG

171
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Having missed the competitive nature of GTS (I've been partaking in a league in Project Cars 2, but only once per week), I returned this weekend. I was S DR before the updates and I guess due to my two month hiatus, the rankings have changed and my competitors have moved on, leaving me at A+. I used to run with the quick guys, albeit a notch below them, with usually at least a battle or two mid pack. Clean, fast, fun racing. I load up sport mode, set some times on Nurby GP, nothing too quick (2.05s) but sufficient (need to readapt to GTS physics quirks having gotten used to PC2!). Out of 6 races I have been rammed in 5, with some intentional and others just due to people not being capable of driving around or next to people. Driving standards are shocking! Maybe it's due to the hiatus and being matched with lower rank drivers, but there is no way these A DR S SR drivers should be at these ranks. Perhaps Nurby is a hot spot for incidents but on 3 occasions I have been rammed first lap T1, from the front to the back. My SR and DR have taken hits which then compounds the problem as you get matched with lower ranks again and all courtesy disappears. Have people gotten worse? Has the ranking system been messed up? Has the penalty system been messed up further?
 
Sander 001
Collision penalties have been drastically reduced. Before, the collision penalties may have been overly harsh but these new relaxed penalties are much, much worse. IMO
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I'd much rather have the penalty system as it is now than the way it was before. Dirty drivers will be dirty drivers, so that can't be changed. But now I won't get a 10 sec penalty because I graced the rear of the guy in front. Racing is much tighter and better now.
 
Boedefeld
I'd much rather have the penalty system as it is now than the way it was before. Dirty drivers will be dirty drivers, so that can't be changed. But now I won't get a 10 sec penalty because I graced the rear of the guy in front. Racing is much tighter and better now.
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It sure is better for dirty drivers now, they're flourishing :lol:

Keep a safe distance if you don't want a 10 sec penalty for tapping the rear of the guy in front. You're not supposed to hit the guy in front, simple. You can't overtake through cars anyway so there's no point hanging on someones bumper.

Racing has become more of a shoving match since the latest changes. It's fun to watch yet I rather keep a safe distance and pass the mess contact free instead of joining in. PD just needed to fix brake check detection, yet they chose to turn it all off and hope hidden SR deductions sort it out. It's still a mess at SR.S. But it will probably stay that way until PD implements actual racing rules and educate players on how to race instead of "don't make yourself look bad" :confused:
 
Sven Jurgens
It sure is better for dirty drivers now, they're flourishing :lol:

Keep a safe distance if you don't want a 10 sec penalty for tapping the rear of the guy in front. You're not supposed to hit the guy in front, simple. You can't overtake through cars anyway so there's no point hanging on someones bumper.

Racing has become more of a shoving match since the latest changes. It's fun to watch yet I rather keep a safe distance and pass the mess contact free instead of joining in. PD just needed to fix brake check detection, yet they chose to turn it all off and hope hidden SR deductions sort it out. It's still a mess at SR.S. But it will probably stay that way until PD implements actual racing rules and educate players on how to race instead of "don't make yourself look bad" :confused:
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If a guy suddenly brakes in the corner, I deserve to get a penalty for being too close? Dude, I know where you are coming from, but it’s just wrong. If I keep a safe distance I’ll never be able to overtake and I won’t be racing then. Have you ever watched DTM or SUPER GT? Light bumps happen in every lap. Good on PD for finally fixing that issue.
 
The new penalties were great at first. People were driving like they were under the previous tough penalties and still trying hard to avoid other cars. As soon as (select) people realised they could get away with contact to gain an advantage, all the fun went out of it for me.

I'm sticking with running my own lobby. I have some control of driving standards in those.
 
Boedefeld
I'd much rather have the penalty system as it is now than the way it was before. Dirty drivers will be dirty drivers, so that can't be changed. But now I won't get a 10 sec penalty because I graced the rear of the guy in front. Racing is much tighter and better now.
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I strongly disagree with the logic that intentional punting is preferred over accidental contact.
 
Interesting responses guys, at the very least it gives me comfort to know that it isn't just me annoyed! For ref before the weekend my DR was 67k and SR 99. Thank the lord I've only lost 2k DR but my SR is currently 70 following various incidents perpetrated by the numskull crew.

Interestingly, I had a look through the lobby last night to try and find a good server and many had names such as "Rubbin is racing", "Wreck fest", "Race wars". Am I reading too much into the social psychology of the player base or is there a growing trend towards accepting foul play as a laugh?
 
Boedefeld
If a guy suddenly brakes in the corner, I deserve to get a penalty for being too close? Dude, I know where you are coming from, but it’s just wrong. If I keep a safe distance I’ll never be able to overtake and I won’t be racing then. Have you ever watched DTM or SUPER GT? Light bumps happen in every lap. Good on PD for finally fixing that issue.
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PD just needed to fix brake check detection. You can overtake without bumping. Real racing doesn't suffer from lag and pinball physics. What might be a light bump on your end could very well be a heavy shunt on the other end.

Anyway the result is I see more and more dirty drivers climb up to the podium by bumping and pushing others out of the way. The red S at the end is not deterrence as they'll only get an easier room as reward to come right back.

It's not all bad though. Race later at night for cleaner races and avoid weekends. It takes longer for the rooms to settle down since the latest penalty changes yet they still do. 11pm to 2am EST is still pretty clean at SR 99.

The most annoying penalties are still there though. Someone spinning out in front of you that you can't avoid despite braking as much as possible still gives you a penalty. Or getting punted into the car in front of you. You can play pinball with cars, as long as the car you hit stays on the road... The car that makes contact last and stays on the road gets the penalty. The system is favoring dirty drivers atm. Heck you can bump the car in front than touch the wall within 3 seconds to give the car you bumped the penalty. It's so easily abused :banghead:


IAMDOODLEBUG
Interesting responses guys, at the very least it gives me comfort to know that it isn't just me annoyed! For ref before the weekend my DR was 67k and SR 99. Thank the lord I've only lost 2k DR but my SR is currently 70 following various incidents perpetrated by the numskull crew.

Interestingly, I had a look through the lobby last night to try and find a good server and many had names such as "Rubbin is racing", "Wreck fest", "Race wars". Am I reading too much into the social psychology of the player base or is there a growing trend towards accepting foul play as a laugh?
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Could be out of boredom from the now weekly races combined with school vacations. Rubbing is racing doesn't work over the internet where ping varies between 15 and 150ms.
 
IAMDOODLEBUG
Interesting responses guys, at the very least it gives me comfort to know that it isn't just me annoyed! For ref before the weekend my DR was 67k and SR 99. Thank the lord I've only lost 2k DR but my SR is currently 70 following various incidents perpetrated by the numskull crew.

Interestingly, I had a look through the lobby last night to try and find a good server and many had names such as "Rubbin is racing", "Wreck fest", "Race wars". Am I reading too much into the social psychology of the player base or is there a growing trend towards accepting foul play as a laugh?
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*DANGER - RANT Below - I have to write this somewhere just for therapy*

I actually came onto the forum to make a point and you’ve already done it. I’m only a high C Driver rating but from day one my SR has been 97-99 (once dropped to 88). Two nights back in 1 totally crazy 1st lap at Interlagos I got shunted and pushed all over. My SR dropped to 70. I tried to correct it the next day but even when I went off track to avoid incidents I got penalized for the off and SR dropped. Today I took to intentionally giving up positions at the slightest pressure from behind and never threatening to overtake just for fear of a bump & to get SR back. That was dangerous because I became a mobile roadblock and was used as a pinball. Eventually I sat at the back of the race throwing all hope of some fun in order to get SR up. Some twit goes off and then drives through me on his way back. From SR of 99 since the day I started GT Sport I found myself on 57 in 1 day.

Most frustrating thing was that I did a clean race and got SR up to 62. Next race I start 14 (B, C & D rated), finish 10 (no overtaking but everyone else either crashed or had penalties). So I raise 4 places, get a bonus for 2nd clean race in a row and I lose 200 DR points and my SR stayed exactly the same. How the hell are you supposed to get back up the rankings if Clean Race Bonuses don’t give SR points?


*END RANT - CHEAPER THAN TELLING A THERAPIST*
 
6BK
*DANGER - RANT Below - I have to write this somewhere just for therapy*

I actually came onto the forum to make a point and you’ve already done it. I’m only a high C Driver rating but from day one my SR has been 97-99 (once dropped to 88). Two nights back in 1 totally crazy 1st lap at Interlagos I got shunted and pushed all over. My SR dropped to 70. I tried to correct it the next day but even when I went off track to avoid incidents I got penalized for the off and SR dropped. Today I took to intentionally giving up positions at the slightest pressure from behind and never threatening to overtake just for fear of a bump & to get SR back. That was dangerous because I became a mobile roadblock and was used as a pinball. Eventually I sat at the back of the race throwing all hope of some fun in order to get SR up. Some twit goes off and then drives through me on his way back. From SR of 99 since the day I started GT Sport I found myself on 57 in 1 day.

Most frustrating thing was that I did a clean race and got SR up to 62. Next race I start 14 (B, C & D rated), finish 10 (no overtaking but everyone else either crashed or had penalties). So I raise 4 places, get a bonus for 2nd clean race in a row and I lose 200 DR points and my SR stayed exactly the same. How the hell are you supposed to get back up the rankings if Clean Race Bonuses don’t give SR points?


*END RANT - CHEAPER THAN TELLING A THERAPIST*
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You have to avoid all contact and always keep a safe distance to other cars. Every slight bump, door touch or other contact that has no effect at all still costs SR. Clean race bonus just means you didn't get a penalty and stayed on the track. SR has nothing to do with it. Safety != Clean.

It's hard when you're down to SR.B. It took me 5 races at St.Croix to get back to SR.A after a bad race there earlier. At SR.A it became a little easier to avoid people.

It's good that it's harder now to get back to SR.S, except it still isn't for those that get granted poles and easy wins when their SR drops. When your pace and qualifying time is at DR.A level you can be as dirty as you want and only get awarded easy wins for dropping SR. If your pace is at the low end of DR.B you are screwed.

This whole game is the prisoner's dilemma experiment playing out. It takes 2 to make a clean pass and both advance in safety rating. Yet the temptation is there to take the DR by bump passing / dirty blocking the other and both driver's safety ratings go down.

If only more people would realize that if you are indeed faster, the opportunity for a clean pass will come. And if you are slower than the car behind it is more beneficial to draft them after they overtake and see where they go faster. Plus DR is not XP, DR is not XP, DR is not XP. It's not even that relevant for match making as SR plays a far bigger role in that. I was up to 37K last week, was down to 19K this week and I play with the same people every night. DR means so little. Yet people keep risking SR for that little bit of extra DR. Some of the fights for 13th place are simply ridiculous!
 
PD is not interested in clean/fair racing for the masses.
They want to coddle their "superstars" and top FIA "gamers" for media/revenue purposes...
The rest of us are nothing more than "participation statistics" to justify the media driven revenue.
 
I can't blame PD. People lacking race craft and/or respect are the problem. Those traits regularly improve positions while the people who try to race fairly fall back. PD's made a solid platform for racing elsewhere though.

Sod the ranked races. They're more trouble than they're worth.
 
Sven Jurgens
You have to avoid all contact and always keep a safe distance to other cars. Every slight bump, door touch or other contact that has no effect at all still costs SR. Clean race bonus just means you didn't get a penalty and stayed on the track. SR has nothing to do with it. Safety != Clean.

It's hard when you're down to SR.B. It took me 5 races at St.Croix to get back to SR.A after a bad race there earlier. At SR.A it became a little easier to avoid people.

It's good that it's harder now to get back to SR.S, except it still isn't for those that get granted poles and easy wins when their SR drops. When your pace and qualifying time is at DR.A level you can be as dirty as you want and only get awarded easy wins for dropping SR. If your pace is at the low end of DR.B you are screwed.

This whole game is the prisoner's dilemma experiment playing out. It takes 2 to make a clean pass and both advance in safety rating. Yet the temptation is there to take the DR by bump passing / dirty blocking the other and both driver's safety ratings go down.

If only more people would realize that if you are indeed faster, the opportunity for a clean pass will come. And if you are slower than the car behind it is more beneficial to draft them after they overtake and see where they go faster. Plus DR is not XP, DR is not XP, DR is not XP. It's not even that relevant for match making as SR plays a far bigger role in that. I was up to 37K last week, was down to 19K this week and I play with the same people every night. DR means so little. Yet people keep risking SR for that little bit of extra DR. Some of the fights for 13th place are simply ridiculous!
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I agree with everything you say and yes, SR is not exactly the same as clean race bonus however I would have expected some correlation. If every segment is complete with a green SR icon that’s 5 laps with 3 segs per you’ve just done 15 clean segments. Get a clean race bonus on top and then do the same next race but you only get 5 SR points. Keep in mind my SR dropped from 99 to 70 because of only 1 bad first lap. I just feel the drop was huge and rapid while the recovery is small and slow.

I agree also that SR is more important than DR. That’s exactly why I’ve chosen to give up positions and subsequently DR in order to get SR back. It makes sense that if you end up as a DR D / SR A ranking it will be easier to get DR points back in safer races with slower drivers than the converse; less safe but faster opponents.

Bizarrely I think it’s much better to have an SR S for clean races and let your DR land where you will have fun and competitive races. Human nature is to push, especially for gamer minded people, but there’s no point in always finishing a mile behind the pack in an A race when you could have fun mixing it up in a B (IMHO).

Once more agree, PD matches more by SR than DR. When you are an SR S / DR C rated driver you’ll be matched with other SR S drivers who are DR A, B, C & D. but never with another DR C driver if their SR was B.
 
Most people still can't race for ****, 99% of players think that just because they can get their front bumper in with a late braking maneuver while the car ahead is turning in that it entitles them to a space, not so.

Meanwhile they come to a site like this every day to complain about bad drivers. There are no words...
 
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MikeV27
Most people still can't race for ****, 99% of players think that just because they can get their front bumper in with a late braking maneuver while the car ahead is turning in that it entitles them to a space, not so.

Meanwhile they come to a site like this every day to complain about bad drivers. There are no words...
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That’s because when they take someone off the track it’s just a mistake but when someone else does the same it’s deliberate ramming or intentionally bad driving.

I’ll admit to my own weak point; I sometimes slow a little more than others on a bend that is particularly prone for “offs”, choosing to lose the 1,000’s of a second in the turn rather than risk going off. In a lot of cases I gain as much in better exits. Because others behind me are willing to take the risk, no fault on them for having the nerve, I end up being rear ended. Question is, is it their obligation to slow being that I’m in front and in a sense am dictating the speed, or are they entitled to expect everyone on the track to take the corner full on?

Of course, there are degrees to this so it’s impossible to answer without looking at footage from individual cases; at what point am I going unreasonably slow and at what speed are they blatantly ignoring the pace being set in front?
 
6BK
That’s because when they take someone off the track it’s just a mistake but when someone else does the same it’s deliberate ramming or intentionally bad driving.

I’ll admit to my own weak point; I sometimes slow a little more than others on a bend that is particularly prone for “offs”, choosing to lose the 1,000’s of a second in the turn rather than risk going off. In a lot of cases I gain as much in better exits. Because others behind me are willing to take the risk, no fault on them for having the nerve, I end up being rear ended. Question is, is it their obligation to slow being that I’m in front and in a sense am dictating the speed, or are they entitled to expect everyone on the track to take the corner full on?

Of course, there are degrees to this so it’s impossible to answer without looking at footage from individual cases; at what point am I going unreasonably slow and at what speed are they blatantly ignoring the pace being set in front?
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It's the driver following that has the obligation to not hit the car in front.

Once an overlap is established before turn in it's on both drivers to leave racing room. That's a very simplified explanation.
 
MikeV27
Most people still can't race for ****, 99% of players think that just because they can get their front bumper in with a late braking maneuver while the car ahead is turning in that it entitles them to a space, not so.

Meanwhile they come to a site like this every day to complain about bad drivers. There are no words...
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This is one of the biggest issues, people muscling through from half a second back. I've seen it happen to others and indeed even myself when one person in a pack pushes past without the right to do so and it causes a chain reaction where the vultures behind capitalise on the poor guy. Suddenly you've lost 4 places along with a heap of SR thanks to all of the door scraping. Every now and again we all brake too late, but that is unintended and part and parcel of racing. This is very different! By the grace of God I made it through T1 at Nurby this morning without being smashed up, (with a puckered sheriff's badge in tow!) and had a clean race to return to 99 SR. At least we've now got a combo which isn't prone to mishaps, oh Bathurst...... :D
 
Mr616
It's the driver following that has the obligation to not hit the car in front.

Once an overlap is established before turn in it's on both drivers to leave racing room. That's a very simplified explanation.
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I agree, but it is extraordinarily rare on GT (or any race sim) that the driver behind will respect that rule.
 
Nürburgring Gp T1 bumps are pretty close to the real thing. I was watchin Gt Masters and Porsche Coup at Nurb. Boy did they make GTS look quite real. I know it sucks, but that's just the way it is.
 
Mr616
It's the driver following that has the obligation to not hit the car in front.

Once an overlap is established before turn in it's on both drivers to leave racing room. That's a very simplified explanation.
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6BK
I agree, but it is extraordinarily rare on GT (or any race sim) that the driver behind will respect that rule.
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I find it equally as rare that the driver in front on the outside will leave enough room as well.

It’s either that people have really bad spatial awareness, or they all think they’re F1 drivers “claiming their corner” by trying to chop people’s nose off. Unfortunately for them, in these games, it’s usually the driver on the outside that comes off worse, regardless of who’s at fault.

That’s why I always try to leave space on the inside if I think someone is there - and not only are they there, there’s a good chance the numbskull is understeering as well.

I wish more people watched Aussie Supercars, they know how to do it properly. Even if the person behind has less than 1/4 of overlap, the leading driver still leaves a bit of space on the inside. The attacking driver hasn’t got far enough alongside, but at the same time, they are on the limit of braking and can’t just disappear. It’s self preservation for the leading driver to not turn in.
 
6BK
Question is, is it their obligation to slow being that I’m in front and in a sense am dictating the speed, or are they entitled to expect everyone on the track to take the corner full on?
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If they kept the proper distance it wouldn't be a collision just because you decided to go for a slow corner entry. If a corner is followed by a straight, I'm actually expecting slower corner entries since dialing the exit speed on the long straight can make or break a lap.

People see Sebastian Vettel riding someone's bumper into a corner and they think they can do it too. They're too ignorant and horrible at driving to realize that Vettel has been staring at Ricciardo's rear end for 30 laps and knows exactly how far he can push Ricciardo. Hell, you can actually learn someone's tendencies in 2 laps if you pay enough attention but these drivers don't really concern themselves with how other people drive. They just try and thread the needle with their hot laps.
 
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