ride height

  • Thread starter waynedaman
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waynedaman

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Waynetheman84
what is everyone's opinion on the effect of ride height on drifting, i notice some peoples vids have pretty high looking car's that roll alot. just a simple question as most real life drift machines are pavement scrapers, to the point where they remove bumpers to get it that bit lower.
 
Putting the car as low as possible will result in the line between stability and uncontrolled over steer becoming smaller. Keeping the height steady will make that line wider, meaning you'll have more room for error. Is that understandable? I'm kinda confusing myself :P
 
lol, that makes some sense. i am having a hard time grasping :ouch: why a higher ride height would provide a margin of error to play in, if that is what you meant. i appreciate the input though.
 
higher center of gravity is one advantage to having the car higher (easier to "throw the car around"), that and your suspension won't bottom out (aka being waaay too bouncy, preventing body roll, etc...), allowing you to set your suspension softer if thats what you like. I usually keep my ride height around 10mm above the lowest setting, give or take depending on how stiff i have it set up. i havent raised it too much more than that because as you said, low is "l33t". :)
 
How about this as an example, F1 cars are lowered like hell, and are stable at high speeds because of all the g's acting on them. One simple mistake and the F1 would go flying. In contrast to a rally car, the rally car would be heightened more than usual, allowing the driver to make mistakes, but achieving less speed. I'm really off beat today :lol: Tank?
 
This is pretty good info, but it seems i'll simply have to experiment with it to figure out what it will actually do for me. I'll try to raise my 86 a bit to see how it works, the car can't go that low to begin with so not a big loss there.

and yes low is l33t!
 
edit: this came a few posts farther down than i wanted - it took some time for me to type.

waynedaman
lol, that makes some sense. i am having a hard time grasping :ouch: why a higher ride height would provide a margin of error to play in, if that is what you meant. i appreciate the input though.
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well, if i'm understanding mdnite's theory correctly, then here's my explanation:
get ready for some light-duty and over generalized physics & mechanics

ok, higher ride height = higher center of gravity
makes sense eh? yes

so, for a given lateral force applied to the car, more energy is loaded into the suspension of a vehicle with a high COG (Energy = force x distance ...distance being height the COG is from the road surface here. Energy given in Joules).
More torque is also experienced about some imaginary line on the pavement drawn parallel to the line joining the center of the front and rear axles. This rotational moment is whats responsible for the body roll. (same formula, Torque = force x distance ...units given in N*m)

the more energy you are able to pump into your suspension, the more that will be translated into positive grip. (this is general and depends a lot on the firmness of the suspension). Unfortunately, the time to load and unload the suspension of a tall ride height generally takes longer than a car with less travel. This makes sense intuitively.
A tall ride height can help out the feint technique. By creating a large difference in the amount of grip availalbe to each side of the car, you can destabilize it.
allow me to rephrase: a high ride height is unstable due to the inconsistent grip level from one side of te car to the other under lateral load.

like i said though, the longer period of time it takes to load the suspension will decrease responsiveness. A low ride height allows for a more responsive car, and more evenly distributed lateral loads. (another generality)
i think this is where mdnite's margin of error comes in. A car with a high ride height will tend to be a bit less twitchy, so your inputs can be less refined (to some extent). On the other hand, understanding when to load the suspension, and how long it will stay loaded may take more adjustment.


hope that helps,
and I hope its all correct :sly: - gettin late and been studyin for finals all day.
mdnite, lemme know if i'm way off base from what you meant

btw - w/ regard to everyone saying they like to drop it as low as possible: you better have some incredibly stiff springs and dampers to avoid bottoming out. I'd say keep things at least 5mm above the minimum height. And for every 10mm dropped, increase spring rates by 1.0kgf/mm or so (I really hate the units on spring rates). This isnt some set in stone formula, i just find it helps keep the car balanced from my own observations.

edit: i think this post also answers your latest plea mdnite.
and rally cars need some clearance for the terrain they cover. Notice how on tarmac stages they sit them lower.
 
hrm...i did it again
i explain things my way, mechanics-wise, and the thread just dies off... :(
i kinda liked this one....
 
TankSpanker
hrm...i did it again
i explain things my way, mechanics-wise, and the thread just dies off... :(
i kinda liked this one....
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man dont worry. it died off cause you were right and the others were, well, they just were.
you answered the question, so theres not too much more to talk about.
 
um i believe that your answers can be found here:
http://web1.nazca.co.jp/hp/nandappekapporu/index.html (the sites in japanese but you'll get the jist of it
this person/people have a good bunch of tutorials and settings to help you drift. like i didn't know that the lower the setting on the brakes, for the rear, the better it is to break traction... you'll have to take a look at the movies he/ the group puts up its pretty awesome.
 
I've always run my cars with the same settings as when they race(or slightly tweeked as needed) the only difference being tires. I have never raised the ride height from the uber low uber stiff setting i normally have it at. I remeber reading about rl drifting how a stiffer suspension does almost the same thing as having a limited slip differential.

(on a note my search of drifting guides yielded tank spankers and swifts gt4 guide as the 8th result)

Alright my searches came to little effect, only some pages about fishing geology and poetry.

Ride hight will allow you toss the car around easier, but only if you suspension is set loose enough to allow it to. A lower suspension with a slacker spring rate can provide the same effect, hopefully without bottoming out.
 
Actually Tank, you described it a hell of alot better than me. Let's just hope everyone else gets it :D
 
YES it is definitely clearer, but still it remains up to the individual doing the driving to choose his/her own preferences, i firmly attend the school of "low is l33t" but may raise it a bit, after experimenting some today. The thread isn't quite dead yet, i simply ran off to watch "U-turn" some movie that was on tv. Thanks to everyone for all the input though, i think this post should be quite usefull to others wondering the same thing some time down the road. Clearly some members of this forum are edumacated even with simplified mechanics/physics. :dopey:
 
Ryen49
I put my car as low as my spring rate will allow it so I don't bottom out.
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right, i've been trying for awhile to figure out exactly how far below the minimum ride height setting a car is able to travel before it will necessarily bottom out. It is a factor that will depend upon the spring rates and damper/shock settings, as well as the car selection. (you saw me fighting with this first hand this morning ryen)
so far, to no avail.

it's easy enough to figure out from the vehicle's weight and some estimated weight distribution (i go with 60/40 on most FR cars to play it safe), how much load any one corner of the car will need to support. Naturally, this will be affected by stabilizer settings, but I prefer to ignore them and do my settings for a 'worst case scneario'. Then afterwards I can go back and soften things up if necessary. (stabilizers are typically the last suspension setting I touch anyways)

For a given spring rate it is pretty easy to determine approximately how much the suspension will need to compress at full load (i say approximately b/c the damper will absorb some force, and no units are given with their settings).

However, without knowing how much travel is available below the minimum ride height setting for the car it is difficult to do much more than guess at a reasonable spring rate and hope for the best. If I feel it bottom out, or see tires coming through the fenders I assume something is wrong and stiffen things up.

I suppose what i could do is purposely set the bound to 1, lower the car to the minimum, and begin on soft springs. Then I could build up the spring rates until the car stops bottoming out....this should give me a roundabout way of determining the available travel. This may be something to try in the future. 💡

so to complete my answer to waynedaman:

For now, I try to set my ride height and spring rates by making use of the information available, and then add a bit more stiffness just as a safety factor to compensate for the unknown and unforeseen. Theres a few too many question marks left in play to make a truly educated decision - primarily the unknown travel distance, but also the vehicle's exact mass distribution. So feel still plays a big part right now, just as large a part as the numbers do. 10mm above the minimum height usually feels comfortable to me.
If I were able to calculate some minimum required spring rate for a given ride height -or- a required ride height for a given spring rate, things would move along much more quickly for me.

If anyone can offer me any help with this problem of suspension travel as I have described it, it would be appreciated. I dont believe it is outside of the scope of this thread, but just to avoid any potential clutter here you can PM me as well.

edit:
I might go throw this in the settings forum if I get stuck on this and see what the nerds in there have to say ;) , but I'll have a better look at it on Sunday when i have more time available.
I hope I can figure something out.
 
TankSpanker
10mm above the minimum height usually feels comfortable to me.
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i mentioned this earlier as you probably saw, and on some of my setups i have had no problem going down to 7 - 8 mm above. I know you were just speaking "generally" i just didnt want people to get the idea that thats the lowest you should ever go.

also I noticed another thread that might be of interest to you Tank, that is if you didnt see it yet.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61743
the way it was discussed pertains to race setups but i imagine some of the same princples could be applied to drifting.
 
194GVan
i mentioned this earlier as you probably saw, and on some of my setups i have had no problem going down to 7 - 8 mm above. I know you were just speaking "generally" i just didnt want people to get the idea that thats the lowest you should ever go.

also I noticed another thread that might be of interest to you Tank, that is if you didnt see it yet.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61743
the way it was discussed pertains to race setups but i imagine some of the same princples could be applied to drifting.
Click to expand...

absolutely, 10mm is where i tend to feel comfortable - just my own preference
you guys do whatever turns your crank, it doesnt bother me.

and ya, i caught that thread....
sure its useful, I personally dont think much of it has any meaning to tuning for drift as you sorta say. but ya, i gave it a run over
 
When can you tell the car has bottomed out? as far as i can tell with the tire coming up through the fenders there isn't really a rock bottom to the length of suspension travel. i will have to test a bit.
 
Isn't bottoming out when your suspension has reached its limit of travel? in which case you hit the bump stop and your suspension stiffness essentially becomes unlimited causing the instability? i think you can reach your max angle without the suspension bottoming.
 
That's what I've always thought it was.. Or I was seriously educated wrong, which I think I was. Gotta ask someone about this.. I'm so embarrassed ^_^"
 
waynedaman
Isn't bottoming out when your suspension has reached its limit of travel? in which case you hit the bump stop and your suspension stiffness essentially becomes unlimited causing the instability? i think you can reach your max angle without the suspension bottoming.
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right

here's a thread related to your last post: Bottoming out: How to tell?
 

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