Saab + Kappa = Sonett (GM Kills It!)

[YSSMAN]

General Motors has approved production of a new Saab Sonett roadster, according to the latest issue of Road and Track. The Audi TT rival will go on sale in two years as a two-seat convertible, and later as a 2+2 coupe, the magazine said. Sonett will feature a wrap-around windscreen and similar styling to the Saab Aero-X Concept. R&T's report closely matches other recent rumors about the Sonett, which some say will use GM's Kappa platform.

...Hmmm, I like the look but I'm unsure that there is a market for the model. Granted, if they can make and sell just a few a year, that would be great. But I would hope that it wouldn't share too much of it's running gear with the Solstice and Sky/GT, as it will need to keep it's Saab-ish nature.

 

[Poverty]

looks mean

 

[STLbarcelona5]

looks mean

Because it's a Sweed whose owner is GM? Er...

Well I think it looks, nice. But it is rather fat, so probably weighs around 3000lbs, but I'm assuming the base engine will be the 210hp 2.0l. So it won't be entirely slow.

I think it has the potential to be a good car. But then again, so did the Sky. And that is by far the most uncomfortable useless roadster ever, and makes it seem like the only people who tried out the ergonomics & weren't appauled were gymnasts.

 

[High-Test]

From what I've read about it, it'll have the option of the 2.8 turbo 6, and also the option of All wheel drive. I like it alot!

 

[Raghavan]

I love it. Looks even better than the Sky, and its RWD and lightweight!

 

[Omnis]

Sonnet or Sonett? Is it Petrarchan or Shakespearian?

Well, anyway, it should be pretty neat. I think a coupe version with a pointed, sawed-off nose like the 70's Sonett would be awesome for this car.

 

[HACKr]

*Drools*
That's really-really nice!

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm wondering if this will be the first Kappa to use a hardtop, or maybe a folding hardtop similar to the new Miata with the vario-roof as well. Saab would seem like the logical choise for such an option to begin with, given that they could easily charge more for a car like that.

2.8L Turbo V6 in a Kappa? I'd say it depends greatly on how they plan to modify the chassis to Saab standards. The Saab/Opel 2.0L Turbo seems like a pretty sensible option, but going with the 2.8L turbo might be asking for too much.

...Time will tell of course, but I'd prefer to be a bit more on the skeptical side at the moment. Keep in mind that the car is comming from GM, but they could completely surprise us as well.

 

[Onikaze]

They can stuff V-8's in there without too much effort.

I don't think a turbo V-6 is out of the question.

 

[Danny]

Nice.

Liking that.

 

[niky]

The Sonnet! The Sonnet!
with a flippable bonnet!
It's the best Kappa car you can buy!

Now pass go on a Solstice, and give Miatas short notice,
Go out and give Sonnet a try!

The Sonnet! The Sonnet!
It goes like a Comet!
The Sonnet's a wonderful buy!

-----

Hire me now, GM... my talent fees are still cheap.

 

[Eric.]

Feeling okay, Niky?

 

[Omnis]

The Sonnet! The Sonnet!
with a flippable bonnet!
It's the best Kappa car you can buy!

Now pass go on a Solstice, and give Miatas short notice,
Go out and give Sonnet a try!

The Sonnet! The Sonnet!
It goes like a Comet!
The Sonnet's a wonderful buy!

-----

Hire me now, GM... my talent fees are still cheap.

That would've been more clever if it was actually a sonnet.

 

[red70mach1]

From what I've read about it, it'll have the option of the 2.8 turbo 6, and also the option of All wheel drive. I like it alot!

The turbo 6 is OK, but AWD is a no on the convertable. Have the coupe get the AWD option.

 

[Tornado]

But I would hope that it wouldn't share too much of it's running gear with the Solstice and Sky/GT, as it will need to keep it's Saab-ish nature.

No. It wouldn't. Saabs don't sell. Face it: The only cars with real Saab in it is the 9-5, which is pushing 8 years old, and the 9-3, which is probably the best car GM makes, but it also is very expensive for what it is. GM has supplanted this 4-sales a year, two car model range with a glorified Oldsmobile Bravada and a glorified Impreza wagon. And they sold the best. In addition, once Trollhaten closes in two years, there will be no more Saabs. There will just be nicer versions of other GM cars.
Personally, I think this is just stupid, as I can't see Saab a a company selling a rear-wheel drive performance car. Hell, I can't remember Saab ever selling a RWD car at all (not saying they never did). And, unlike Saturn, who needed a flagship to attract people to it's larger quantity of garbage cars, Saab just needs to market their cars more aggresively and price them better.
In addition, both Kappa cars have already proven to be lousy competitors to the Miata (regardless of how good they are), because they are just too heavy and even less practical. Adding power does not add driving excitement. And if this Saab adds both...

 

[YSSMAN]

You've got a good point, but I wouldn't underestimate the folks at GM right now. They are indeed looking to make Saab more profitable, and unfortunately that means making it more like Opel/Vauxhall/Saturn in the process. Eventually somone (HOPEFULLY!) at GM will get the bright idea of having Saab build Saabs like they used to, but as of right now, it just doesn't fit into the business model.

 

[niky]

The problem is, they have been building those Saabs, but people just aren't buying it anymore. The customers have moved on... Saab (gasp) ought to, too. Volvo did, and it's paying dividends. Volvo has somehow managed to find a modern take on Volvo, and they've taken off from there. Saab just... hasn't. Really strange, as the formula is mostly the same. Quirky, low-boost turbocharged front-drivers from a country that, by all rights, shouldn't be making cars in the first place...

Maybe they should sell Saab to Ford? GM's idea of saving marquees is taking cars from a better marquee and sticking the poor boy's logos on it.

Errh... horrible poetry up there... who's responsible for that idiocy? Wish I knew how to write a sonnet... give me the meter and I'll give it a half-drunken crack.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well GM's problem is that they are trying to appeal to the die-hard Saabophiles and not everyone else like Volvo. Granted, there are certain parts of the Saab formula that have stuck for good reason, but then there have been subtractions that have occoured for now apparent reason.

Maybe if GM gets wise, brings Saab back to it's roots, maybe they could sell a few models. But as it stands right now, Saab isn't making enough money to do it, and I doubt GM is willing to take a risk on a company just to do so.

I'm not upset that Saab is sharing platforms with other GM models, as it is a good way to keep costs down, but it is when the GM-feelings start comming into the driving expririence, that becomes a problem. Thankfully the new 9-3 Sportcombi does a good job of capturing the old Saab nature, and it has been said that the updated Saab 9-5 does a good job as well, but I still long for the days of cars like the 900 and 9000, back when Saab was still Saab, and they were outrageously good looking and fun to drive.

 

[Tornado]

Thankfully the new 9-3 Sportcombi does a good job of capturing the old Saab nature, and it has been said that the updated Saab 9-5 does a good job as well, but I still long for the days of cars like the 900 and 9000, back when Saab was still Saab, and they were outrageously good looking and fun to drive.

The 9-5 is from the days when Saab was still Saab. That's why it doesn't sell. It's too old. And the 9-3 was always a great car (possibly GMs best), both to drive and in overall quality, but it costs about 7K too much for it's size.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I do think it's funny how much Top Gear seems to love the 9-3 and 9-5, and yet most American magazines don't care much for the cars because they "aren't Saab enough."

I doubt we will ever agree on anything

 

[JCE]

Saab needs to do something wild and crazy to get some new customer base...that's younger than 50 years old. And Tornado I take issue with "Adding power does not add driving excitement. " It most certainly does, it's the classic weight vs power issue when competing Miata with the Solstice/Sky. And I don't think they are "lousy" competitors either. I've driven bolt--don't ask me how I even fit in a Miata in the first place--and my choice is the Solstice/Sky for 50% of the fact that I can not only FIT inside one but drive on with relative comfort and it has more power and is faster. Slow light cars can only be fun to a point. BTW let's compare the numbers of these two cars. This is relavent because this Saab is going to be on the Kappa platform. It looks like they are even stevens to me. And it would come down to the driver to decide a race between these two...and the Solstice is $1500 cheaper. I can't believe I'm defending a GM product vs a Ford product...

2006 Pontiac Solstice
Retail Price: $19,915
Standard Engine 2.4L 177 hp I4
Horsepower 177 @ 6600 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 166 @ 4800 RPM
Curb Weight: 2860lbs
Skidpad: 0.90g
Pontiac Solstice - I4 2.4L (177 hp) 5M + ABS 0-60mph 6.91sec 1/4mi 15.57sec @ 90.20mph 60-0 braking 134ft

2006 Mazda MX-5 Miata
Retail Price: $21,435
Standard Engine 2.0L 170 hp I4
Horsepower 170 @ 6700 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 140 @ 5000 RPM
Curb Weight: 2474lbs
Skidpad: 0.91g
2006 Mazda MX-5 3rd Generation Limited Edition - I4 2.0L (170 hp) 6M + ABS 0-60mph 6.81sec 1/4mi 15.33sec @ 91.50mph 60-0 braking 119ft

 

[Danny]

The Sonnet! The Sonnet!
with a flippable bonnet!
It's the best Kappa car you can buy!

Now pass go on a Solstice, and give Miatas short notice,
Go out and give Sonnet a try!

The Sonnet! The Sonnet!
It goes like a Comet!
The Sonnet's a wonderful buy!

-----

Hire me now, GM... my talent fees are still cheap.

Awesome! Plus Rep for you Niky.

 

[niky]

OMG... that song is going to haunt me forever...

Good for Saab that they are getting the Kappa convertible, but there's little future for the brand in it. It'll just help move Kappas.

C'mon, GM give me presidency over Saab for five years. I'll put them in the black in no time. To me, Saab has always meant quirky, idiosyncratic, and fun. To achieve this, we'll take the good old 9-3 platform and turn it around bass-ackwards, putting the engine where it's meant to be, hanging out over the rear wheels.

Combine this with light turbo gasoline or diesel units, a two-box profile (with a parcel shelf over the engine bay and a full sized trunk in front) and POW, you've got the working man's Porsche.

They'll be a hoot to drive, cheap to make, and they'll sell like hotcakes. And they'll be uniquely Saab.

Ok, now I think my talent fee is going up.

 

[Tornado]

It most certainly does, it's the classic weight vs power issue when competing Miata with the Solstice/Sky. And I don't think they are "lousy" competitors either.

So I see a car that is faster in every way for a grand and a half more. Not to mention things like trunk space, build quality and such. Now, let me get this straight: The Kappa cars are great, the Sky being the better of the two (but whatever), but the fact that they weigh 400 lbs more do not make them a good competitor to the Miata. Also, it's great that they offer faster versions, but said faster versions add even more weight to the already portly car. The Miata is known for it's quick reflexes and tossabhle nature, and in every review that I've seen there as a criticism of the Solstice that it weighed to much to be truly tossable, which is the Miata's #1 quality. I really don't care how fast they go, because they don't make up for the fact that they weigh to much to be able to out-do the Miata at what it best at. The only car that has done that since the Miata launched was the 3rd gen MR2.

 

[JCE]

So I see a car that is faster in every way for a grand and a half more. Not to mention things like trunk space, build quality and such. Now, let me get this straight: The Kappa cars are great, the Sky being the better of the two (but whatever), but the fact that they weigh 400 lbs more do not make them a good competitor to the Miata. Also, it's great that they offer faster versions, but said faster versions add even more weight to the already portly car. The Miata is known for it's quick reflexes and tossabhle nature, and in every review that I've seen there as a criticism of the Solstice that it weighed to much to be truly tossable, which is the Miata's #1 quality. I really don't care how fast they go, because they don't make up for the fact that they weigh to much to be able to out-do the Miata at what it best at. The only car that has done that since the Miata launched was the 3rd gen MR2.

You're joking right? How is it faster in everyway...I just pointed out the specs? If you're going to quibble over 0.1 seconds to 60mph and 0.2 seconds in the 1/4mi then seriously you are way too biased. Even the 0.01g difference in lateral G isn't that much. Those kinds of tiny differences come down to weather and or the driver. And as for the hefty comment, the top of the line Solstice is less than 100lbs heavier than the base model. That's nothing.

Storage space? I don't think the Miata wins here, it's more like a tie.

2006 Miata:
Front Head Room: 37.4 in. Front Hip Room: 50.6 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 53.2 in. Front Leg Room: 43.1 in.
Luggage Capacity: 5.3 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 5 cu. ft.

2006 Solstice:
Front Head Room: 38.5 in. Front Hip Room: 50.6 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 52.4 in. Front Leg Room: 42.7 in.
Luggage Capacity: 5.4 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 5 cu. ft.

Exterior dimensions. So the Solstice is wider and longer, while the Miata has about 1 inch height difference. The Miata has about 0.1~0.3 in. ground clearance advantage. So again I feel this is a tie...wider and longer makes up for extra height and weight in the Solstice. And the extra 362lbs the Solstice has really isn't that much more, especially when it has the extra power to compensate.

2006 Miata:
Length: 157.3 in. Width: 67.7 in.
Height: 49 in. Wheel Base: 91.7 in.
Curb Weight: 2498 lbs.

2006 Solstice:
Length: 157.2 in. Width: 71.3 in.
Height: 50.1 in. Wheel Base: 95.1 in.
Curb Weight: 2860 lbs.

Build quality?

We will have to wait at least 3 years to gauge an ACCURATE opinion on the Kappa's build quality. So this point is not debatable until we get the longterm figures in for the Kappa.

Now, playing Devil's Advocate here the Miata wins in the trim levels (has 6 I think) and gas mileage. The reason for the better gas mileage IS because of the lighter weight and frankly I like Mazda's engines more than anything from GM with exception to the LSx V8's. The Miata's biggest draw is it is it has been the roadster of choice for the less than $25k market for the last 17 years--it's proven and like an old lovable dog. And the Solstice is like the young pup that has to earn the respect of the older dog. The 3rd gen MR2 while ugly is a great roadster itself...but I'm not bringing that into the debate because more people own Miatas and it's not part of the meat of this debate.

So in conclusion I honestly believe these are two very close competitors. It's clear by the numbers that they are, I just don't see how anyone can get a clear victory for either of them.

 

[YSSMAN]

JCE3000GT, you are well aware of my love for GM, but even I consider the MX-5 to be better than the Solstice and Sky. Despite the fact that the Mazda is just a titch more expensive, it is better balance, offers argueably better build quality, and the 2.0L MZR is just a titch more refined than the 2.4L ECOTEC unit in the Kappa cars.

Granted, it would all depend on how much money I'm looking to spend and just what exactly I'm planning to do with the car. If I was going racing, I'd be buying the stripper-Solstice, but if I want everyday practicality, the MX-5 is the way to go.

Either way, I'm getting a good deal...

 

[STLbarcelona5]

Why don't we have a comparison on livability. I sat in a Sky at the NY Auto Show in April, I absolutely HATED it. Or maybe I hated it because it had the potential to be such a good car, but wasn't. The ergonomics require a contortonist to perform easy tasks such as . . . moving your knees, or getting a drink.

And why there hasn't been a public outcry about the Skys little box under the ignition doesn't make any sense. It's that bad.

Then I sat in a Miata, yes it's small. But for me, I'm 6', I was perfectly comfortable in it. I could actually move around and not feel trapped, which is how I felt in the Sky.

Regarding the Saab, and Saabs in general. I've always liked them and probably always will. But if GM thinks they're going to succeed, they need to stop showing cars race jets on a runway. And just show people having fun driving along wherever like a Mazda or VW ad.

Show that Saabs different and quirky, but that quirkiness is fun.

 

[Onikaze]

Why the Solstice beats out one of my favorite cars of all time, the Miata.

It's a piece of cake to swap a Chevy Small Block into a Solstice, it's a bit harder to do it into a modern Miata.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Good point!

I'm crossing my fingers for them to build a coupe version with the LS7 so I can call it the Cheetah like the old Daytona rival that was build by Chevy in the '60s.

 

[JCE]

Then I sat in a Miata, yes it's small. But for me, I'm 6', I was perfectly comfortable in it. I could actually move around and not feel trapped, which is how I felt in the Sky.

Sorry, I don't believe you, unless you are like 120lbs or something. I'm 6ft and I'm not 120lbs and I don't fit in a Miata. I'm sorry but there's no way someone who's 6ft and over 185lbs can COMFORTABLY fit in a Miata (or a Solstice/Sky for that matter). The Solstice/Sky has over 1 inch more head room which may not seem like much bit it is for taller folks. The top of my head literally fully made contact with the roof of the Miata, with the seat as far back as it can possibly go. At least my head wasn't touching the roof of the Solstice. Yes the Miata has 0.4" more legroom...but seriously 0.4" is nothing in terms of legroom.

And worried about "getting a drink"? Don't bother drinking or eating in the car, you don't need to do that anyway. Distractions and multitasking is the #1 reason why people crash in the USA. And because the interior cabin space numbers are so similar overall there's no way you can feel THAT much more claustrophobic in one as opposed to the other...as I've pointed out they are nearly identical in almost everyway. So I'll stop the debate since my point is OBVIOUSLY not getting any thought.