SCC Racing League

[Biggles]

OK. Here's my suggestion to try & get more racing happening. Let's try a SCC racing league. (I tried something like this for FC, but it never really got off the ground because of lack of participation.)

The concept is simple:

A league designed to bring SCC racers together for one-on-one racing.

Positions within the racing league will be represented by a "ladder", ranking the participating racers.

The rules would be:

Any driver on the ladder can issue a challenge to a driver up to FOUR places higher on the ladder.

The lower ranked driver sends a challenge to the higher ranked driver, arranging for a race time.

At the time of the race, the challenger specifies 5 car choices. The challengee picks one of those cars, which is then used for all the races.

The car must be driven with no assists (except automatic), & with no tuning.

The event takes places on 5 tracks: the challenger chooses 3 tracks, the challengee chooses 2.

Races can be in the dry or wet.

Each race consists of 5 laps.

If the challenger wins the series, he moves up the ladder & exchanges positions with the loser. If he loses, he remains in the same position as before the race, & the challengee moves up one position (this will help keep the positions fluid).

Obviously, this will only work if there is decent participation & drivers make an effort to make & respond to challenges. However, it will (hopefully) provide a motivation to bring racers together, while providing some kind of competitive framework. It should also lead to a more casual interaction between racers, using a variety of cars & tracks, without necessitating hours of practice with each car/track. The idea is not to choose a car in advance & specialize with it, but to experiment with different cars in a spontaneous way. I suggest that before the actual racing starts each driver takes 15 minutes to get used to the handling of the selected car.

There's no reason why participants could not choose different "rules" to race under, as long as both drivers agree in advance, & there's no reason races could not involve more than two drivers at a time, however, I suggest we use the above rules as a default. The league is intended as a counter-part to Jeff's "big event" Challenge series, so it perhaps makes sense that the racing is orientated towards one-on-one racing rather than larger grids, a minimum of prior "training" & a varied selection of cars & tracks. Hopefully, it will also be "self-organizing", & because it allows for an unlimited number of participants & complete flexibility in timing, it will allow everyone, including the newer SCC drivers to get involved.

Here are the current rankings (please also check the last post of SCCRL Results thread for the most up-to-date results). Newcomers can join at the bottom of the rankings & move their way up.

AlanG184
mhm66
Simcoeace
jjaisli
new_soul
arvore
vompatti
fingersandthumbs
turnupdaheat
kemp333
bullie77
Wnabm3
GTP_Hun
plckr00
Redgate
GTP_Justin
vitormazzi
PhanTomI
lpb-nissan-gt-
MannyMoenjack

 

[arvore]

Eating popcorn and waiting for Jeff's mockery...


But of course count me in:tup:

 

[MannyMoenjack]

Well as long as I don't have to run it, count me in.

I wanted to get on last night, to try to get back into the game after the debacle Sunday, but my PSN was down for maintenance.

 

[hm66]

I'm in

 

[Biggles]

Well as long as I don't have to run it, count me in.

Well, I'm hoping that I will be largely "self-organizing". Participants contact each other & make their own arrangements & then just report the results.

It's really just a list of participating drivers with a commitment to race each other & a structure to introduce an overall competitive element. I'm also hoping it will make things easier for people who were forced to drop out of the big grid events because of "technical" issues - like GTP_Devie.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Still waiting for the North American release/download (they said it was comming to North America as download); unless GT5 released soon; SCC's loss then.

 

[jjaisli]

Eating popcorn and waiting for Jeff's mockery...

Ridiculous. I'm fully supportive of the idea. 👍


With a few minor, some, a couple of tweaks, some fundamental revisions.

 

[Biggles]

The only revision I would contemplate is corporal punishment as a penalty for failing to participate...

 

[Alan_G]

Sounds like a great idea. I was always thinking of something like this to run alongside the other events, just to get more activity going. Previously I was thinking a time trial league, although the participation is too low with SCC.

The only issue I have is that there is no incentive for the higher ranked player; there's no reason to race, other than for fun. What if someone gets to P1; they don't have to race!

Perhaps it would be good to have a system where the winner of the race always gets some kind of gain. In my opinion, these points would help the participation, and it gives a reason for both players to race:

- If the higher ranked player wins, he/she gains 1 position (regardless of the relative position to the lower ranked player).
- If the lower ranked player wins, the position is swapped between the two players.
- If the lower ranked player loses, the player drops 1 position lower.

I think the real beauty of this system is that it favours those who participate; if someone slacks off for a few weeks, they'll slip down the leaderboard simply by higher-ranked players of ties gaining 1 position for wins, pushing the player above down one position.

Also, doing it on 5 different circuits would favour the people who have loads of time to practice and be warmed up easily on all of the circuits. Personally I would prefer to see ONE 12 lap race on a circuit chosen by the challenger. And I think the race should happen at any time relative to the challenge request. This would make sure that both players have time to get to a fair level of comfort with the circuit.

 

[Biggles]

Alan, I’m glad to see you are interested in this. It is partly intended to accommodate people who cannot necessarily participate at the set times of the Challenge championship.

The only issue I have is that there is no incentive for the higher ranked player; there's no reason to race, other than for fun. What if someone gets to P1; they don't have to race!

In the end, there's no incentive for any of this other than to have fun!

If the higher ranked player wins, he/she gains 1 position (regardless of the relative position to the lower ranked player).

I think this is a good idea, as it adds an extra incentive to compete on a regular basis. I don’t see any real reason for the lower ranked player to drop if he loses, however.

Also, doing it on 5 different circuits would favour the people who have loads of time to practice and be warmed up easily on all of the circuits. Personally I would prefer to see ONE 12 lap race on a circuit chosen by the challenger. And I think the race should happen at any time relative to the challenge request. This would make sure that both players have time to get to a fair level of comfort with the circuit.

I definitely do not want to use a longer one-race format – partly because this gets closer to the existing Challenge events. The idea is precisely NOT to specialize, but to take on a variety of cars & tracks, to test general driving skills, without exhaustively perfecting the line on any one car/track combination. I actually think that having 5 tracks makes it harder to simply spend "loads of time to practice".

I would almost prefer to have a completely random selection of cars & tracks at the time of the race – but I don’t see how this could realistically be achieved. Of course, the car/track choices could be left to the last minute to make it even harder to practice in advance:

The challenge is made, the racers agree on a time to meet. At that time, the challenger presents 3 (or even 5) car choices, the challenged racer chooses one of those cars, & then the track choices are made. I'm not sure whether this would work well or not?

The idea is that there should be some unpredictability to the results, with drivers moving up & down & hopefully working through a variety of cars & tracks.

 

[cpp214]

I'd definitely like to participate in the SCC Racing League 👍
I don't know how competitive I can be right now, but this sounds like a lot of fun

 

[SipnDzl]

you can count me in.......
this sounds like a lot of fun

 

[Hun200kmh]

Hi Peter, count me in. I completely agree with this:

I would almost prefer to have a completely random selection of cars & tracks at the time of the race – but I don’t see how this could realistically be achieved. Of course, the car/track choices could be left to the last minute to make it even harder to practice in advance:

The challenge is made, the racers agree on a time to meet. At that time, the challenger presents 3 (or even 5) car choices, the challenged racer chooses one of those cars, & then the track choices are made. I'm not sure whether this would work well or not?

The idea is that there should be some unpredictability to the results, with drivers moving up & down & hopefully working through a variety of cars & tracks.

So, I suggest the following. Challenger presents the challenge without saying anything about cars and tracks. Come the scheduled day/time, he gives the challenged three cars to choose. About tracks and race definitions, I think three races is enough, but 7 or 9 laps each, not 5. Challenger picks 2 tracks and sets weather for one of them, Challenged picks one track, and sets the weather for it AND for one of the challenger's tracks.

That way you have:

Challenged player picking the car, but from the choices given by the Challenger (makes it almost even I suppose)

1st race - track/weather combo picked by Challenger
2nd race - track/weather combo picked by Challenged
3rd race - track picked by challenger, weather picked by Challenged

Almost forgot ... default setups, unless both players agree otherwise.


These are my suggestions. In any case, put me up on the list
__________________

 

[Biggles]

OK. I given this a lot of thought. The idea behind the Racing League is to encourage more interactive online racing. The racing should be as fair as possible, involve as little prior training as possible, & use as wide a variety of the cars & tracks featured in SCC as possible.

1) I'm absolutely sure that more tracks equals less "specialization", so I believe the 5 track/5 lap rule should be the default rule. If the drivers agree they can add more tracks &/or laps, but that 5 tracks/5 laps should be the default.

2) The Challenger gets to pick one more track - 3 tracks to 2, or 4 tracks to 3 - than the higher-ranked player, to give (theoretically) the Challenger a slight advantage.

3) The choice of car is the key issue. I really want to avoid a situation where one driver has a big advantage in the amount of practice he is able to bring to bear. Because there are only two drivers involved, I think it ought to be possible to come to a simple agreement on which car to use. Personally, I think the ideal scenario is for the racers to decide on a time to race, meet online & mutually pick the car at that time, choosing a car which neither racer has previously used, or alternatively, a car which both feel comfortable with. No tuning. 15 minutes pre-race practice with the car to get dialed in - then start racing, choosing the tracks at that time.

If this does not work out, we may have to adopt a more precise rule for choosing the car.

 

[SMK]

Count me in... gr8 work Every1

ShaneMcKane. Zyaz All Zoon...

 

[Redgate]

Count me in please, still learning on this one but i figure i'll learn more from doing this than TT or AI races.

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

Ill join.

 

[Alan_G]

I think there needs to be a more concrete rule for selecting the car. The idea of choosing a car both drivers have not used won't apply to a lot of people, including myself, who have used all cars in the game.

It would be good to allow the challenger to decide the car(s) for 3 races, and the opponent for 2 races, and allow to pick the same car for the 3/2 races, or use different cars. Or perhaps make it mandatory to use a different car in each race, where the challenger decides 3 cars on 3 circuits.

 

[bullie77]

I'm in!

I also do tend to prefer everyone's opinion as keeping it as impredictable as possible (track/car combo to be decided by the two drivers on the spot)!

I also liked to have longer races. This weekend's Le Mans outcome gave me hopes about my slow pace! (LOL)

 

[Biggles]

The idea of choosing a car both drivers have not used won't apply to a lot of people, including myself, who have used all cars in the game.

It's not important whether you have used the car in the past. What we are trying to avoid is excessive "pre-race practicing". That's for the Challenge series for those so-inclined.

I think we'll stick with the original rules: 3 cars suggested by the Challenger - one car selected by the Challengee. Cars & tracks can be selected at time of challenge or at time of race, as agreed by the participants. Ultimately, the goal is to have good, fair, close racing, rather than to obtain an advantage over your opponent. 5 track, 5 lap minimum, but can be more of either, if agreed upon.

I suggest we start next week, after the first 355 Challenge event. Rather than wasting time with a qualifying TT event, let's just start with a ladder roughly based on the 348 Challenge series. Newcomers will be positioned randomly at the bottom of the ladder. As long as everyone makes an effort to participate, everyone should end up in the right place after a couple of challenges.

Please encourage any other SCC owners you know to participate - particularly newcomers to SCC - they will make the biggest contribution to making the racing fresh & unpredictable.

 

[bullie77]

It's not important whether you have used the car in the past. What we are trying to avoid is excessive "pre-race practicing". That's for the Challenge series for those so-inclined.

I think we'll stick with the original rules: 3 cars suggested by the Challenger - one car selected by the Challengee. Cars & tracks can be selected at time of challenge or at time of race, as agreed by the participants. Ultimately, the goal is to have good, fair, close racing, rather than to obtain an advantage over your opponent. 5 track, 5 lap minimum, but can be more of either, if agreed upon.

I suggest we start next week, after the first 355 Challenge event. Rather than wasting time with a qualifying TT event, let's just start with a ladder roughly based on the 348 Challenge series. Newcomers will be positioned randomly at the bottom of the ladder. As long as everyone makes an effort to participate, everyone should end up in the right place after a couple of challenges.

Please encourage any other SCC owners you know to participate - particularly newcomers to SCC - they will make the biggest contribution to making the racing fresh & unpredictable.

I think it would be a good idea to put the ranking (and further) updates in the first post of this thread.

 

[Biggles]

Yes, everything will be edited & updated on the first post.

 

[Alan_G]

I don’t see any real reason for the lower ranked player to drop if he loses, however.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I suppose the risk of losing a place may discourage challenges being made. So as long as 1 position is gained when the challenged user wins, that would be great.

The challenge is made, the racers agree on a time to meet. At that time, the challenger presents 3 (or even 5) car choices, the challenged racer chooses one of those cars, & then the track choices are made. I'm not sure whether this would work well or not?

There's an argument to be made for both ways; 3 or 5 cars. Having 3 cars to choose 1 from means the challenged player will be less likely to be able to choose a specialised car. But it does mean that the challenger has to spend less time trying to specialise on the 3 cars (I know the spirit of the league is not about this, but this will happen). So it gives the challenger a slight advantage.

So yes, I think 3-choose 1 is the best way, as it makes it a bit more favourable for the challenger, which would promote more participation.

Great idea though. Very much looking forward to it!

 

[blown540ci]

sign me up if you would .
not too fussed about the rules , just clean racing

 

[jjaisli]

So what's the rule on setup adjustments and/or assists?

 

[Alan_G]

So what's the rule on setup adjustments and/or assists?

It may be good to have a system where each user declares a threshold of assists for him/herself, and the challenger can only use assists at an equal or lower (less assists) level. So for example:

Player1 - ABS
Player2 - TC/ABS
Player3 - TC

If player2 challenges player1, player2 could only use ABS or no assists. If player3 challenges player2, player3 could choose TC and/or ABS, or nothing. I know this is almost like players deciding between themselves, but the main thing is that it saves challenges being made which will be rejected, as the challenger could check which assists will be accepted by a player.

It's a very important point because, like myself, some people will not race with any assists, as it's a different game in some sense using assists, and it's such a nuisance trying to switch between using them and not. And further to that, although it may seem trivial, some people like to keep my leaderboard times free of assists!

 

[bullie77]

It may be good to have a system where each user declares a threshold of assists for him/herself, and the challenger can only use assists at an equal or lower (less assists) level. So for example:

Player1 - ABS
Player2 - TC/ABS
Player3 - TC

If player2 challenges player1, player2 could only use ABS or no assists. If player3 challenges player2, player3 could choose TC and/or ABS, or nothing. I know this is almost like players deciding between themselves, but the main thing is that it saves challenges being made which will be rejected, as the challenger could check which assists will be accepted by a player.

It's a very important point because, like myself, some people will not race with any assists, as it's a different game in some sense using assists, and it's such a nuisance trying to switch between using them and not. And further to that, although it may seem trivial, some people like to keep my leaderboard times free of assists!

I actually think that assists shouldn't be allowed, period!

The spirit of the league is to promote people to try to climb up the rank by challenging other players who are (definetively or temporarily) in a better position they are, but to keep things even both away, the "frame" on which everybody's racing should be the same to all - so no assists at all.

Setups I consider it differently for 3 main reasons in a specific order:

a) it can also be considered as a skill of you to be able to find a suitable setup for a variety of tracks for a specific car;

b) almost everybody have them (even if only the ride height/camber "fatal" adjustments);

c) there's no proved way to guarantee a setup-free race with a 100% certainty.

 

[jjaisli]

Personally, I think the best, most random way to do this challenge, the challenger chooses 3 tracks, the other contender picks the 1 they will race. The Challengee chooses 3 cars and the challenger picks the one they will race with. And this information should be done by PSN 5 minutes before the race.

One race.
5-7 laps.
One track.
One car.
Details only known a few minutes before the start. Random game liveries, no setups, no assists.

But hey, that's just me...

 

[arvore]

Personally, I think the best, most random way to do this challenge, the challenger chooses 3 tracks, the other contender picks the 1 they will race. The Challengee chooses 3 cars and the challenger picks the one they will race with. And this information should be done by PSN 5 minutes before the race.
One race.
5-7 laps.
One track.
One car.
Details only known a few minutes before the start. Random game liveries, no setups, no assists.

But hey, that's just me...

If the intention is to level the oportunities and avoid the "pratice" advantage I think this might be the better solution...but I'm in whatever our eldery Biggleeclestonemosley,decides:tup:

 

[Hun200kmh]

Personally, I think the best, most random way to do this challenge, the challenger chooses 3 tracks, the other contender picks the 1 they will race. The Challengee chooses 3 cars and the challenger picks the one they will race with. And this information should be done by PSN 5 minutes before the race.

One race.
5-7 laps.
One track.
One car.
Details only known a few minutes before the start. Random game liveries, no setups, no assists.

But hey, that's just me...

And, as usual, you got it all wrong

The Challenger must be in advantage. He is challenging someone higher placed and if you want the ladder to be "alive" you must create the conditions to make the initiative of Challenging appealing. So, giving the Challengee the right to pick the 3 cars and giving the Challenger only what's left (picking one of these 3 cars) is wrong.

I just re-read what I wrote in this thread (post #13) and I've got nothing to add to my suggestions there. But hey, that's just me ...


EDIT:

... Biggleeclestonemosley ...

don't you forget JeffJean Marie BallestrOdtAisli