Should PD separate Gran Turismo 'experiences'

[Caliper]

I came to the realization shortly that all that is wrong with GT5 is that is trying to be too much. I understand it's supposed to be the "real driving experience" and it's as close as a console can get.

GT5P was simple, bunch of cars showcasing what they will look and feel racing, no more.

I was wondering, what if PD should make different GT games specially for experiences, as in a GT game purely for racing.... no b-spec, no 1000's of cars, no course making, a game bred purely for "real racing experience".
Make a separate GT game for B-spec, the rumored C-spec and then all this car collecting, trading, car wash, etc. would make more sense in a game like that.

GT series name is big enough already for them to perhaps make several kinds of game experiences for people to buy it.

Sorry to make this comparison, is not to say what is better, but to get the point across, would you imagine what Need For Speed could be if one game had "Hot pursuit+Porsche unleashed+underground+carbon+shift" all cramped up? it would be a BIG mess with limited events and memory resources.

Discuss

 

[PDJ2K]

One could always just pick whatever he/she wants to use out of the complete game. I see no benefit in splitting them up.

 

[mr.wigglesaur]

meh, i kinda agree. like i really wish they would have added much more to the licensed experiences (nascar, rally, amg, blah blah blah). like a gtnascar and a gtwrc wouldnt sound terrible imo, but dividing the game up isnt a very good idea. just add more events is all, no need to split up the game.

 

[boshuter]

That goes against PD's "quantity over quality" approach.

People need to realize that GT5 is not a racing sim, it's a casual game designed primarily for the typical console gamer. There are no racing sims for consoles simply because no console has the hardware required to run a really good sim. I love racing sims on my pc, but sometimes I like to just relax with an easy, simple racing "game" that I can play online against my friends who are not sim racers. GT5's online aspect is the only thing that keeps it from the trash can, and even that is very poorly done. You just have to keep telling yourself that it's just an arcade game that isn't supposed to be anywhere close to realistic, and you can live with it for have a little fun with your friends.

For the games target audience, who just want to reach the next level and complete everything in the game, no matter how mind-numbingly boring it is, the game is everything they want.

 

[jjaisli]

There are no racing sims for consoles simply because no console has the hardware required to run a really good sim.

That is ABSOLUTE nonsense of the highest order. A PS3 or Xbox360 is more than capable of running a sophisticated simulation. The hardware contained in both game consoles was heady stuff back in 2005/2006. There's no doubt that PC hardware today has moved on during the last few years and even a mediocre PC can match either console. But what PC sim on the market today can't run adequately on a 5 year old Core 2 duo?

The reason there are no hard core sims on console racers is because developers for console games are simply trying to appeal to a broader market in order to maximize their profits. Only a select group of people are going to play a really dedicated hard-core simulation:
- wheel only
- sophisticated physics
- online only

You could probably make the argument that the PSN is flaky enough that it can't sustain the kind of traffic necessary for 30 player lobbies without issues. But as for the hardware itself, no problem.

 

[mykem]

That goes against PD's "quantity over quality" approach.

People need to realize that GT5 is not a racing sim, it's a casual game designed primarily for the typical console gamer. There are no racing sims for consoles simply because no console has the hardware required to run a really good sim. I love racing sims on my pc, but sometimes I like to just relax with an easy, simple racing "game" that I can play online against my friends who are not sim racers. GT5's online aspect is the only thing that keeps it from the trash can, and even that is very poorly done. You just have to keep telling yourself that it's just an arcade game that isn't supposed to be anywhere close to realistic, and you can live with it for have a little fun with your friends.

For the games target audience, who just want to reach the next level and complete everything in the game, no matter how mind-numbingly boring it is, the game is everything they want.

Racing was never the bread and butter of the GT series. In the past even the physics and driving weren't up to snuff. But with GT5, even though PC simmers would disagree strongly, but after getting used to the FFB in GT5, I find it hard to go back to rFactor or any gMotor2 based games (GTR2 for example).

There's no doubt that both rFactor (provided it's a good mod) and GTR2 kill GT5 when it comes to racing but to me that market itself is quite saturated even in console land- SHIFT, GRID, F12010 and Race Pro. But if you're like me prefer a good selection of production cars, a decent selection of track which includes a well recreated version of the Nordschleife and an immersive FFB, then the choice narrows down to just one. Forza presents the other choice but you just have to drive its version of the Nurburgring to see the reason for the disqualification.

 

[Mulan]

It all comes down to what i wrote about scrapping standard cars, duplicates and noncense cars and focus on realism, racing and better/faster menu´and this game has a chance.

 

[jjaisli]

FWIW, if there was a version of GT5 that:

1. Did away with off-line mode completely.
2. Had support only for wheels, including FULL G27 support.
3. Allowed 20 people in online lobbies with 20 more spectating.
4. Automatically booted people who drive backwards.
5. Did away with the PD home brew tracks and added real world tracks in their place.
6. Eliminated ALL STD cars and had premium models only.
7. Proper qualifiying and practice modes.
8. No silly credit earning/XP gaining.
9. All cars unlocked.
10. A more sophisticated lobby system, including the ability to force ABS off.
11. With just a few minor tweaks to the already impressive physics and...hmmm...'adequate' FFB...

I would buy it over what we had now. Unfortunately there are probably less than 20,000 people who would ever consider such a game.

 

[Mulan]

FWIW, if there was a version of GT5 that:

1. Did away with off-line mode completely.
2. Had support only for wheels, including FULL G27 support.
3. Allowed 20 people in online lobbies with 20 more spectating.
4. Automatically booted people who drive backwards.
5. Did away with the PD home brew tracks and added real world tracks in their place.
6. Eliminated ALL STD cars and had premium models only.
7. Proper qualifiying and practice modes.
8. No silly credit earning/XP gaining.
9. All cars unlocked.
10. A more sophisticated lobby system, including the ability to force ABS off.
11. With just a few minor tweaks to the already impressive physics and...hmmm...'adequate' FFB...

I would buy it over what we had now. Unfortunately there are probably less than 20,000 people who would ever consider such a game.

That would be great!

 

[maxpontiac]

FWIW, if there was a version of GT5 that:

1. Did away with off-line mode completely.
2. Had support only for wheels, including FULL G27 support.
3. Allowed 20 people in online lobbies with 20 more spectating.
4. Automatically booted people who drive backwards.
5. Did away with the PD home brew tracks and added real world tracks in their place.
6. Eliminated ALL STD cars and had premium models only.
7. Proper qualifiying and practice modes.
8. No silly credit earning/XP gaining.
9. All cars unlocked.
10. A more sophisticated lobby system, including the ability to force ABS off.
11. With just a few minor tweaks to the already impressive physics and...hmmm...'adequate' FFB...

I would buy it over what we had now. Unfortunately there are probably less than 20,000 people who would ever consider such a game.

While the simulator fan in me likes that idea of a Gran Turismo ARMA edition, it sounds like a failed business model.

 

[xSNAKEx]

FWIW, if there was a version of GT5 that:

1. Did away with off-line mode completely.
2. Had support only for wheels, including FULL G27 support.
3. Allowed 20 people in online lobbies with 20 more spectating.
4. Automatically booted people who drive backwards.
5. Did away with the PD home brew tracks and added real world tracks in their place.
6. Eliminated ALL STD cars and had premium models only.
7. Proper qualifiying and practice modes.
8. No silly credit earning/XP gaining.
9. All cars unlocked.
10. A more sophisticated lobby system, including the ability to force ABS off.
11. With just a few minor tweaks to the already impressive physics and...hmmm...'adequate' FFB...

I would buy it over what we had now. Unfortunately there are probably less than 20,000 people who would ever consider such a game.

Thats becasue it would not be gran turismo, and some of those are ridiculous...

Force ABS off is just retarted. Whats the reason? Does it make you feel macho? Because it certainly isn't for any degree of realism...

Seriously if this was a real race then by all means the event shuld be able to force things like ABS off, but not in a game, at the level they are now.

Think about it. You have no geforce sensations, you have no shock/ vibrations. You dont even have feedback from the pedals.

In real life it is the easiest thing to feel the breaking point of tyres grip, but in a game it is a painstaking process that shares nothing with reality.

It really frustrates me people who just want to force all driving aids off to seem cool, without actually thinking it through

 

[Mulan]

Thats becasue it would not be gran turismo, and some of those are ridiculous...

Force ABS off is just retarted. Whats the reason? Does it make you feel macho? Because it certainly isn't for any degree of realism...

Seriously if this was a real race then by all means the event shuld be able to force things like ABS off, but not in a game, at the level they are now.

Think about it. You have no geforce sensations, you have no shock/ vibrations. You dont even have feedback from the pedals.

In real life it is the easiest thing to feel the breaking point of tyres grip, but in a game it is a painstaking process that shares nothing with reality.

It really frustrates me people who just want to force all driving aids off to seem cool, without actually thinking it through

Perhaps it is on standards but that feeling is more doable in premiums if they wanted...

 

[gambleboyen]

FWIW, if there was a version of GT5 that:

1. Did away with off-line mode completely.
2. Had support only for wheels, including FULL G27 support.
3. Allowed 20 people in online lobbies with 20 more spectating.
4. Automatically booted people who drive backwards.
5. Did away with the PD home brew tracks and added real world tracks in their place.
6. Eliminated ALL STD cars and had premium models only.
7. Proper qualifiying and practice modes.
8. No silly credit earning/XP gaining.
9. All cars unlocked.
10. A more sophisticated lobby system, including the ability to force ABS off.
11. With just a few minor tweaks to the already impressive physics and...hmmm...'adequate' FFB...

I would buy it over what we had now. Unfortunately there are probably less than 20,000 people who would ever consider such a game.

I would buy that, although I'd also like them to drop all the crap commuter cars, and preferably keep the number of GT-Rs, MX-5s, S2000s etc under 10 of each, maybe even under 5.

 

[gambleboyen]

Thats becasue it would not be gran turismo, and some of those are ridiculous...

Force ABS off is just retarted. Whats the reason? Does it make you feel macho? Because it certainly isn't for any degree of realism...

Seriously if this was a real race then by all means the event shuld be able to force things like ABS off, but not in a game, at the level they are now.

Think about it. You have no geforce sensations, you have no shock/ vibrations. You dont even have feedback from the pedals.

In real life it is the easiest thing to feel the breaking point of tyres grip, but in a game it is a painstaking process that shares nothing with reality.

It really frustrates me people who just want to force all driving aids off to seem cool, without actually thinking it through

He said ability to force ABS off, not that it was a requirement. You'd have 5-6 lobbys with no ABS, and 500 normal lobbys where racing would be fun.

 

[jjaisli]

Thats becasue it would not be gran turismo, and some of those are ridiculous...

Force ABS off is just retarted. Whats the reason? Does it make you feel macho? Because it certainly isn't for any degree of realism...

Seriously if this was a real race then by all means the event shuld be able to force things like ABS off, but not in a game, at the level they are now.

Think about it. You have no geforce sensations, you have no shock/ vibrations. You dont even have feedback from the pedals.

In real life it is the easiest thing to feel the breaking point of tyres grip, but in a game it is a painstaking process that shares nothing with reality.

It really frustrates me people who just want to force all driving aids off to seem cool, without actually thinking it through

I regularly host lobbies where we have a gentleman's agreement to elminate ABS. And we do it because ABS in the game, acts as a form of stability control under braking. Even with ABS at 1, under most circumstances, you can just mash the pedal to the floor with no consequences. It's hardly a challenge. Where as with ABS at 0, you have to carefully manage your braking points and think about balance and weight transfer. And if you lock up the tires, even if you don't throw the car into a spin, you'll wear your tires out faster. Its' a very different game without ABS.

But hey, we're a bunch of 'macho' racers. And you just wouldn't be in the 20,000 club, so don't worry about it.

 

[The Stalker]

Thats becasue it would not be gran turismo, and some of those are ridiculous...

Force ABS off is just retarted. Whats the reason? Does it make you feel macho? Because it certainly isn't for any degree of realism...

Seriously if this was a real race then by all means the event shuld be able to force things like ABS off, but not in a game, at the level they are now.

Think about it. You have no geforce sensations, you have no shock/ vibrations. You dont even have feedback from the pedals.

In real life it is the easiest thing to feel the breaking point of tyres grip, but in a game it is a painstaking process that shares nothing with reality.

It really frustrates me people who just want to force all driving aids off to seem cool, without actually thinking it through

Personally, I think jjaisli's idea sounds cool. The fact that you don't clearly illustrates his point that the majority of gamers wouldn't like this style of game. Hence why no console developer would make such a game as it simply wouldn't sell to the masses.

 

[Stigsblkcousin]

FWIW, if there was a version of GT5 that:

1. Did away with off-line mode completely.
2. Had support only for wheels, including FULL G27 support.
3. Allowed 20 people in online lobbies with 20 more spectating.
4. Automatically booted people who drive backwards.
5. Did away with the PD home brew tracks and added real world tracks in their place.
6. Eliminated ALL STD cars and had premium models only.
7. Proper qualifiying and practice modes.
8. No silly credit earning/XP gaining.
9. All cars unlocked.
10. A more sophisticated lobby system, including the ability to force ABS off.
11. With just a few minor tweaks to the already impressive physics and...hmmm...'adequate' FFB...

I would buy it over what we had now. Unfortunately there are probably less than 20,000 people who would ever consider such a game.

More like 6000.

 

[gogatrs]

Sorry to make this comparison, is not to say what is better, but to get the point across, would you imagine what Need For Speed could be if one game had "Hot pursuit+Porsche unleashed+underground+carbon+shift" all cramped up? it would be a BIG mess with limited events and memory resources.

Discuss

I seriously wouldn't mind racing a Porsche 917 against a Bugatti Veyron or try and outrun the cops with it.

 

[curtis_boy]

A true simulation imo would be that you had only one car and you gradually built on that one car and avoid crashing because you will have to pay for the damages which will be costly and take really good care and pride in whatever you purchased and take it to track days as in real life. You dont pour $200,000 into your honda oddessy and then go buy a ferrari a second later to add to you 1,000+ car garage! You recieve very few xp and credits like, 100 cr a race for 1st place and you could save your money and buy better parts and earn some big money in some annual championships.

^THATS A SIMULATION^

GT5- shifting from 6th gear to 1st gear while doing well over 100 mph?

^THATS A VIDEO GAME WITH SOME COOL GRAPHICS^

 

[Tenacious D]

Thats becasue it would not be gran turismo, and some of those are ridiculous...

Force ABS off is just retarted. Whats the reason? Does it make you feel macho? Because it certainly isn't for any degree of realism...

Seriously if this was a real race then by all means the event shuld be able to force things like ABS off, but not in a game, at the level they are now.

Think about it. You have no geforce sensations, you have no shock/ vibrations. You dont even have feedback from the pedals.

In real life it is the easiest thing to feel the breaking point of tyres grip, but in a game it is a painstaking process that shares nothing with reality.

It really frustrates me people who just want to force all driving aids off to seem cool, without actually thinking it through

What he said.

While I love real life race courses as much as the next racer, trying to turn Gran Turismo into GTR2 or something with tons of cars and online only play isn't what most of us want. Having the option to set up a bunch of real world based events online with lots of restrictions, sure, that's cool. But ripping the heart out of the Gran Turismo lineage? Forget that. Besides, what's so much cooler about racing a bunch of Miatas around Suzuka than Trial Mountain?

 

[xAmilli0n]

FWIW, if there was a version of GT5 that:

1. Did away with off-line mode completely.
2. Had support only for wheels, including FULL G27 support.
3. Allowed 20 people in online lobbies with 20 more spectating.
4. Automatically booted people who drive backwards.
5. Did away with the PD home brew tracks and added real world tracks in their place.
6. Eliminated ALL STD cars and had premium models only.
7. Proper qualifiying and practice modes.
8. No silly credit earning/XP gaining.
9. All cars unlocked.
10. A more sophisticated lobby system, including the ability to force ABS off.
11. With just a few minor tweaks to the already impressive physics and...hmmm...'adequate' FFB...

I would buy it over what we had now. Unfortunately there are probably less than 20,000 people who would ever consider such a game.

That would actually live to up to the name, the real driving simulator. Would be fun, but a little hardcore to do all the time (at least for me). I guess that was arcade racers are for lol.

 

[Zenith]

What on earth is C-spec? Am I the lap counter?

 

[apex28del]

Why not split it up? Say GT comes as a set, and YOU install exactly what YOU want.
Honestly, that's the only way everyone's going to like it - their way.

 

[xSNAKEx]

He said ability to force ABS off, not that it was a requirement. You'd have 5-6 lobbys with no ABS, and 500 normal lobbys where racing would be fun.

I regularly host lobbies where we have a gentleman's agreement to elminate ABS. And we do it because ABS in the game, acts as a form of stability control under braking. Even with ABS at 1, under most circumstances, you can just mash the pedal to the floor with no consequences. It's hardly a challenge. Where as with ABS at 0, you have to carefully manage your braking points and think about balance and weight transfer. And if you lock up the tires, even if you don't throw the car into a spin, you'll wear your tires out faster. Its' a very different game without ABS.

But hey, we're a bunch of 'macho' racers. And you just wouldn't be in the 20,000 club, so don't worry about it.

Perhaps it is on standards but that feeling is more doable in premiums if they wanted...

No. it is not more or less doable on premiums. It is exactly the same problem.
It has nothing to do with game physics or cars, even if they nail that perfectly 100%, it would still be hugely a far cry from reality to force ABS off.

You guys don't understand the issue at all do you?

Driving a real car, EVEN if yo blindfold yourself, and plug your ears up, you can EASILY without any kind of doubt feel what is the right amount of braking force to use, whether your car is equipped with ABS or not.

You can feel the cars weight transfer momentum, pitch, yaw, roll etc, and this is totally separate from your sense of sight and hearing. Your brain will also use your sense of sight and hearing and combine all these to form an understanding of the situations you are in.

In GT5 your brain is limited to getting its entire situational awareness about whats going on through a 16:9 box in front of you and the speakers in your room. All GT5 can convey is a partial image of the action and a very poor implementation of force feedback.

Forcing ABS of in a scenario like this and thinking you are somehow getting closer to a purist racing game is my problem. Either way its not close to reality.

However by forcing ABS off you are forcing people to have to learn a skill that has NOTHING at all to do with actual real world driving skill, but rather a totally different, specific, very video game related skill. No matter how much you think it is a racing gentlemens agreement to have ABS off, In fact IMO you are more noob if you want to force ABS off.

Lets just accept the fact the situation can not be replicated properly to warrant the ability to force ABS off. Why do you think the way it is at the moment? The developers are are of this problem.

And dont tell me its just an option you want to have and you dont have to use it...
Just like with every other driving aid, even if it is totally unrealistic for a host to FORCE it off on players who are using cars like an EVO or GTR or anything that HAS TCS and ASM in real life, most hosts who consider themselves into racing will force everything off ALWAYS. Why? Its actually less realistic.
Your feeding us BS if you say you just want the option to be there. I've seen tons of lobbies and 99% of them who want to do actual racing force all driving aids off because they CAN. Do you really mean to say if ABS wasn't there as an option they wouldn't tick that off as well!? You can bet your ass they will.

Heck they would pick no steering and no brake pedal if it was an option, just to seem really hardcore, and that's the issue I have with people like you. It is more about some fake sense of being a racing purist and as much as you deny it, ego, machoness and unwritten law of hardcoreness.

Unfortunately on the other end of the spectrum you have servers with skid recovery on and they drive backwards.

I get frustrated it is hard to find a logical host who has fake game aids such as skid recovery and active steer off but all the real world and sensible ones liek tcs and asm on to allow to the drivers discretion as to what driving aids they want.

 

[jjaisli]

Driving a real car, EVEN if yo blindfold yourself, and plug your ears up, you can EASILY without any kind of doubt feel what is the right amount of braking force to use, whether your car is equipped with ABS or not.

You can feel the cars weight transfer momentum, pitch, yaw, roll etc, and this is totally separate from your sense of sight and hearing. Your brain will also use your sense of sight and hearing and combine all these to form an understanding of the situations you are in.

In GT5 your brain is limited to getting its entire situational awareness about whats going on through a 16:9 box in front of you and the speakers in your room. All GT5 can convey is a partial image of the action and a very poor implementation of force feedback.

This is basically true but it's a problem in general with any racing sim. And that's why we'll always be limited in certain ways without a multi-million dollar, enclosed hydraulic mount. This is also why, for example, that low speed, wide radius turns, like the 1st corner of the Nürburgring GP course or the decreasing radius of corner 2 on the Paul Ricard circuit, to name a few, don't translate very well into video games. The lack of centrifugal forces on your body makes negotiating those corners potentially more difficult in the game than they are in real life. Because it's difficult to tell exactly when the car is truly reaching it's grip limit.

But there are ways around this. Supercar Challenge for example had, IMO, the best FFB of any racing game on the PS3. The way it transmitted grip and the sense of understeer was far better than what we have with GT5. You could physically FEEL when the car was loosing grip--not just hear the tires squealing. GT5 is improved on Prologue in this area but in FFB, it still falls a little short.

However by forcing ABS off you are forcing people to have to learn a skill that has NOTHING at all to do with actual real world driving skill, but rather a totally different, specific, very video game related skill. No matter how much you think it is a racing gentlemens agreement to have ABS off,

This is not exactly true. Look, I'm not a professional by any means. At best, I'm an enthusiastic amateur. But I have plenty of closed circuit track days under my belt. I've attended 2 professional driving schools. I've autocrossed. I've taken part in TSD rallys. I'm not the fastest guy out there but I at least know which way to point the car. And I reject this statement. Have you even driven GT5 without ABS? When the tires lock up the steering goes limp (as it does in real life). You can tell immediately. Yes, agreed, we're missing the decelerating g-forces on our bodies and slight differences to let you know that the tires are breaking friction. But this is true, not just in braking but in cornering and in acceleration when you spin your tires as well. By this line of thinking you might as well not play any virtual racing games at all, because in this sense, none of them will match reality so what's the point in playing period.

But given a choice, I prefer to have ABS off for those cars that don't use ABS in real life. (I would't do this in a lobby with low powered road cars--it wouldn't make sense). But I'm not going to have ABS with racing cars. Or 60s racers. As I said, having ABS on changes the nature of the way the cars handle and react under braking. It becomes a form of stability control. Without ABS, the car's weight shifting from side to side in transitional movements, something you CAN feel in the FFB, becomes much more important. Yes, you're missing the feeling in your inner ear but you can feel it in your hands if you use a good FFB wheel. There are large benefits that bring the racing experience closer without ABS. Is it the same as being in a real car? No, of course not. But I can tell you, I've been in that situation on the track, where I braked too late, locked up, got the car all out of sorts and had to wrestle it back under control and try to keep it on the track. And physis wise, I think this is transmitted very well in GT5. And I would rather have cars reacting like they should in the real world than a bunch of trains on rails.

In fact IMO you are more noob if you want to force ABS off.

Always with the insults. It really doesn't add anything to your argument you know.

Lets just accept the fact the situation can not be replicated properly to warrant the ability to force ABS off. Why do you think the way it is at the moment? The developers are are of this problem.

Oh are they? Do you think GT5 is the ONLY racing game I've played? It isn't. Do you think other racing games don't have the ability to shut it off. Each developer goes about it in a slightly different way. And some are better than others. Tell you what, why don't you head over here: http://www.iracing.com/ and tell them they're all a 'bunch of noobs' for racing without ABS. I'm sure they'd all agree with you. Including the professional drivers who actively take part.

Just like with every other driving aid, even if it is totally unrealistic for a host to FORCE it off on players who are using cars like an EVO or GTR or anything that HAS TCS and ASM in real life, most hosts who consider themselves into racing will force everything off ALWAYS. Why? Its actually less realistic.
Your feeding us BS if you say you just want the option to be there. I've seen tons of lobbies and 99% of them who want to do actual racing force all driving aids off because they CAN. Do you really mean to say if ABS wasn't there as an option they wouldn't tick that off as well!? You can bet your ass they will.

Turning off aids levels the playing field. It equalizes things. You're the first person I've ever seen who tried to argue that it's LESS realistic. What a maverick.