Soft rev limiters?

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R.S

R.S

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Does any car in GT have a soft rev limiter, like the cars in the real world?

Or do they all go vvvvmm..............vvvvvvmmmm..............vvvvvvmmmm and waste so much power/boost/efficiency accelerating and decelerating when hit limiter (ie top speed on a downhill straight)?
 
Lord Protector
No smooth shifting. He means that real like rev limiter, that when you hit the limit, your revs stop at that point.
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Yes, Modern car have electronic timing that just stops the revs getting any higher.
This GT rev limiter is like the driver takes his foot off the pedal for 2 seconds while the speed drops 20km/h then puts it back on and we need to accelerate again wasting time and fuel.

You can achieve faster time (higher average speed) by maintaining consistent maximum revs (as per Beat the Beat)
 
It's done on rpm value; you reach x rpm and the throttle is cut until the rpm drops to x - a rpm. a is a constant, so that it's the same no matter the speed, gear etc. So when you're up near your top speed it takes forever to claw that a rpm back again, but in wheelspin from a standing start, it "bounces" in a more realistic manner.

A time-based cut would be more realistic, but there's the danger of overspeeding still, so you keep the cut on if rpm is still higher than x. I wrote something that does exactly that for my own purposes, and it works OK for an "old-school" (30+ years now!) fuel cut effect; I can do carb'd ignition cut the same way by adding "bangs" :p

More modern systems use fine-grained fuel and ignition control (i.e. no hard cuts), plus drive-by-wire throttle, to approach the rev limit, rather than bounce off it. Diesels use governers that reduce the fuel pressure and so the power output, giving a wonderfully "soft" limit (you can do the same with modern electronics on petrol engines, too.) It's a bit like hydraulic lifter bleed in that respect.
 
While I like to change gear just before the limiter when pushing on hard, on the rare occasion that I hold on to a gear for too long and do hit the limiter at full throttle, I get a hard cut, almost feels like I've hit the brakes as the acceleration stops and then kicks back in again.

It can be rather disconcerting in 4th at 120mph having the engine cut out and then back in again. I thought I'd blown my engine the first time it happened.

This is on a car built in 2000 with modern fuel injection but cable throttle.

I've never got to the limiter in 5th (circa 140mph) so I can't comment on if it has a 'soft cut' in top gear.


Modern golf GTi's that I have driven seemed to have a soft cut, due to the drive by wire throttle.

If you are regularly hitting the limiter in the early gears due to wheel spin, extra throttle control is needed, if it's in top gear, extend your gearing until you are tickling the limiter at the end of the longest straight under slipstream.
 
Yeah.. I have always wanted a 'comfort, sport, track' setting to be used for auto's...

But then again I only drive in manual cuz race car.
Anyways, my Ford Taurus does the same thing, except it is a whole lot scarier!!

Governor kicks in at 112 and shifts down from 4th to 3rd, cuts all fuel, drops down to 90 mph, and shifts back into 4th.. Luckily, the max speed I've hit was 111 on a tyre tach (or whatever they're called.. They measure speed by a point of rotation on the wheels and does math and BOOM speed) so I have yet to experience such craziness..
 
There's actually three different types of limiters. The "soft" limiter stutters ignition to limit the RPM of the engine. The "hard" limiter cuts fuel. The "governor" or "speed limiter" prevents the car from going past a certain ground speed. GT6 has the equivalent of a "soft" limiter if you run a gear too far or hammer the throttle at idle, and a "speed limiter" which slows the car down at the end of the highest gear.

In reality, using my WS6 Formula Firebird for example, it has no "speed limiter" or "soft" limiter from the factory. It only has a "hard" limiter, which you can get away with on a naturally aspirated engine. Boosted vehicle have a "soft" limiter, because if you hit a "hard" limiter in one of those you would grenade an engine from running lean. Nearly every vehicle built after the late 90's has a "speed limiter" in it, which can typically be bypassed with a tuner or by exceeding the speed limiter in a lower gear then shifting to the highest gear.
 
I've always thought it odd that both GT and Forza has a rev limiter on all the cars, Not very realistic when you are talking some of the older cars. I understand it being there on the newer cars which actually have those on them but that old Nova? old Mustangs? no such thing. I would like to see them have to more realistic aspect of having to be careful at high RPM not to over rev and blow the engine.
 
No matter what PD do, people will always find a way to pick holes in it. I accept it's annoying, but really, how long are you guys sitting on the limiter for?
 
In fairness, it should be a pretty simple fix taken in isolation. But I expect it's all tied into the drivetrain model currently in use, which will be a web of states and logic. The whole thing needs an overhaul (towards a proper simulation), so if / when that comes, perhaps the specific improvements requested in this thread will be a natural consequence of the change of model.
 
MatskiMonk
No matter what PD do, people will always find a way to pick holes in it. I accept it's annoying, but really, how long are you guys sitting on the limiter for?
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Well, for one thing, they are on version 6 of this series and there's still a ton of little things that they have failed to fix, and when you add it all up it equals GT6: The Epic Fail Simulator

In all seriousness, if you're going to call yourself a "simulator" then you need to get all this stuff right. Would you want a flight simulator with automatic wheels down and up or would you want a switch that if you forget to flip you wad up the plane?
 
NOSaholic
Well, for one thing, they are on version 6 of this series and there's still a ton of little things that they have failed to fix, and when you add it all up it equals GT6: The Epic Fail Simulator

In all seriousness, if you're going to call yourself a "simulator" then you need to get all this stuff right. Would you want a flight simulator with automatic wheels down and up or would you want a switch that if you forget to flip you wad up the plane?
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You're right, there is a whole bundle of things that aren't right, I just don't see this as being that important. And given this is the first time I've heard anyone talking about realistically modeling the mechanical performance of the rev limiter, in 15 years of playing the game, I'm guessing that it's not a major issue either. Sure it's annoying when you can't maintain the absolute maximum speed of your car without loosing a couple of mph every few seconds, but just ease off before the games limiter.

I've been driving for about 17 years, and I couldn't tell you what type of limiter, or how it behaves on the limiter, for ANY of the 9 cars cars I've owned, or twenty-or-so cars I've driven regularly. Maybe you would know, but the fact is most people wouldn't, so you want PD to check and model this detail for 1000 cars, for a situation that as a racer you should be trying to avoid, but PD gives you the chance to tune out, assuming you can't do it with delicate throttle control or correct shifting - when they still haven't fixed in game tuning bugs, and there is till as chasm of difference between GT and the real world in more important areas? Sorry, it only bugs me because people seem to get so hung up on the little things for the sake of appearing very clever.... when, at the end of the day, we're talking about a console game. (I know the OP was only asking a question)
 
MatskiMonk
appearing very clever
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Why thank you ;)

Really this fix should take half an hour for an experienced coder, even if not changing any logic at all, just change the 'bounce-rpm' to the 'maximum-rpm'.
Unless you want to define correct behaviour for every car, anyhow I think a soft rev limiter would be more accurate than what we have now, especially when you consider we can put an ECU on just about any car in GT.

MatskiMonk
, but just ease off before the games limiter.....we're talking about a console game
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Yes and console gamers play with a controller with 5mm of travel, real cars have accelerator with 6 inches of travel. IMO it's a bit like the magic ABS thing, you can't expect a controller to provide the finesse required to hold at the limits.

Maybe in GT9 they will implement a proper drivetrain, gearbox, engine controller and actual clutch.
 
R.S
Why thank you ;)

Really this fix should take half an hour for an experienced coder, even if not changing any logic at all, just change the 'bounce-rpm' to the 'maximum-rpm'.
Unless you want to define correct behaviour for every car, anyhow I think a soft rev limiter would be more accurate than what we have now, especially when you consider we can put an ECU on just about any car in GT.
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Yeah, you'd have to code the various behaviors (according to @NOSaholic there are a few methods, which I'm sure have there own characteristics), then you'd have to go through and find out what behaviors each car should have, and set them. It's not rocket science, but it's more than a half hour job. And those experienced coders at PD should be fixing the other actual bugs in the game before worrying about this, IMO.

R.S
Yes and console gamers play with a controller with 5mm of travel, real cars have accelerator with 6 inches of travel. IMO it's a bit like the magic ABS thing, you can't expect a controller to provide the finesse required to hold at the limits.

Maybe in GT9 they will implement a proper drivetrain, gearbox, engine controller and actual clutch.
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To be honest I intentionally suggested 'easing off' because I wanted to see who uses pedals. FWIW, I use a Thrustmaster T500RS, but I don't have the gearstick add-on, which means I can't use the clutch and I do have to use flappy paddles to change gear. Given the percentage of cars in the game that would offer that configuration as stock, it is again a massive inaccuracy, probably fine in a GT-R GT500, but less so in a BMW 507 for instance (which yes, can probably be fitted with a sports ECU :lol:)
 

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