Solving the Cockpit view problem

  • Thread starter Adam West
  • 37 comments
  • 4,372 views
A

Adam West

171
or lack thereof.

One of my biggest beefs with GT series, aside from the crappy tire screeching noise, is that there aren't any cockpit views for any cars. Now i understand that it would take probably twice as long for PD to do teh game, or maybe they can't spare the polys or what have you. I believe, however, that there's a quick, polygon-free way to implement cockpit views.

One of the new features of GT4 is that the backgrounds use real photographs blended into the game's graphics. But the photographic background is not your typical 2D bitmap since the picture rotates around the track as you're driving. YOu can see this in Grand Canyon and Italy track.

Following this innovation, i think that they coudl simply take a pic of the cockpit of a specific car, make it a bitmap image and have that as another POV. All they would have to do is animate the gauges, maybe give them some color and have a 3D steering wheel that moves as well.

If not that then give me at least a hood view for cryin' out loud. Let me feel like i'm INSIDE a car!

GT4 has a long way to go.

"1. While in cockpit view, press the LMB and move the mouse forward/back to adjust seat forward/back.
2. While in cockpit view, press the RMB and move the mouse forward/back to adjust seat up/down
3. Assign a key/button to "Free Look" (default "F". Then, when in the car, press this key, and move your viewpoint by moving the mouse around.
4. While on the track, press the "PAGE UP" key, and use the NumPad keys to rotate around the car.
( use 3 and 4 in combination, to line the camera up for some creative screenshots )
5. While on the track, press the I key (default) to switch to/from AI control.
Then press the PAGE DOWN" key, and watch from trackside cams as the car zooms around the track.
6. Select nose-cam as default view, HUD on, Mirrors on, and virtual mirror, for an immersive arcade-style view.
7. While in cockpit mode, press the SPACE bar to cycle the Motec display. Observe tire temps changing in realtime for eg.
8. On the Car - Co-Driver tab, set Starting Driver to 2nd driver, and 2nd Driver Control to AI, and watch your teammate do the private practise.
9. On the Track-info screen, click on the Info symbols to hear information about each turn.
10. Lot's more, have a play around"

--- GTR

bow.gif
 
I don't know...A cockpit view just isn't Gran Turismo. It would take me a while to get used to it.

It would look "arcady".
 
Wow. that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard.

Which is more realistic, dont' answer this btw, an inside view of the car where you see not one bit of the car, or a view that shows what the inside of the car actually looks like?

A SIM game has got to have a cockpit view to be taken seriously.
 
I can't see a 2D cockpit working. I can only imagine it, but it would almost certainly look awfull.

But I do understand what you are saying and I'm hoping for a 'hood view' as well.
 
If you want to feel like you are in a car, make yourself a racing sit for gt4 like most gt fans are doing or get go out and get yourself the full gt4 simulator with the Red Bull Audi TT shell that shakes like it was on a real track. Do you honestly think you're going feel like you are in a car with the interior of your car on 17" screen or 30" tv? I whether have a clear viewing field on screen with a wheel with a speeo o meter and other meters seen in cars. And for the record, those backgrounds arent photos
 
If they're not photos they are not polygons. I'm no techie so i dont' nkow what you call them. You could argue Grand Canyon but the Italy track it is very obvious that the background is based on an actual photograph and it is most definitely not made up of polygons like the surrounding buidings are. But i'm not getting into an argument over this aspect of the game.

Just as you prefer having an unobstructed view of the road, thus sacrificing the cockpit, i, on the other hand, like to build a rapport with the car i'm driving by seeing its interior. Never racing in 3rd person view, there's no way to tell which car i'm using other than by its drivetrain or engine sound.

Give me the cockpit view, so that if i don't like it, i can choose not to use it.

Lastly, having a cockpit view doesn't mean that all other views should be hacked. My suggestion is a recommendation for an addition, which would not affect anyone else's playing style since the other views would remain, since it takes less work to not do something (removing a view), than doing.
 
Adam West
Wow. that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard.

Which is more realistic, dont' answer this btw, an inside view of the car where you see not one bit of the car, or a view that shows what the inside of the car actually looks like?

A SIM game has got to have a cockpit view to be taken seriously.
Click to expand...

sorry, but THAT has to be the stupidest thing ever heard.

Are you telling me that you'd rather have a half-assed "2D" Bitmap with a 3D steering wheel?? Sorry batman but that sounds pretty ghey to me. It's like saying "lets have every car ever built but since there's no time, lets just have a square block with a picture of the car on it!"

If KY's gonna put a dash in, it'd better be of serious quality or it's gonna degrade the whole series.
 
well, long long ago i really like to play games that you can see the dashboard...something like Need For Speed and Battle Gear, but i dont know it's me or not. when i want to drive as hard as possible, i need to view in full screen mode instead of dashboard view, since the dashboard just block my view.
so i guess it's fun to have dashboard view, but when get to serious i think i need full screen
 
Adam West
Following this innovation, i think that they coudl simply take a pic of the cockpit of a specific car, make it a bitmap image and have that as another POV. All they would have to do is animate the gauges, maybe give them some color and have a 3D steering wheel that moves as well.
Click to expand...

You make me laugh ! you want a ColinMcRae-like crap cockpit or what ?
Your statement definitly proves you know nothing about game programming , so do you atleast know the PS2 hardware barely manages to handle the GT4 graphics without any noticable slowdowns or any other flaws ? So don't ask a lot from PD , we're still on PS2.
 
Before I begin, I would like to congratulate the Troy Trojans (formerly Troy State) for upsetting the #17 ranked Missouri Tigers (or called "Mizzou") of the Big XII conference. Great job, guys! The final score was 24-14. I still got the Kansas State Wildcats winning Big XII North. Congraulations on the upset, guys!

You know, there are things we love in life. I'm not taken by a beautiful and angellic lady. The point where I'm getting at is that when you love something, you learn to take the good and the bad of something you love. You see where I'm getting at, dude? I understand your concern about the cockpit view. If you want to do that, you don't want to go the route "Pro Race Driver" went by kind of having touring cars with a generic style cockpit view. Whether you race a 200 hp+ Eagle Talon, a 620hp Australian V8, or a 700hp-something race car that wishes it were its road-going counterpart, most of the race cars have the same generic cockpit. Not all cars are like that in the game, but most of them are. But if you want something like that, wait until the PS3 comes out. I want to talk the PS3 on GTPlanet some time later in my "career" on GTPlanet. Of course, I'm celebrating my ninth month on GTPlanet.

If you want realistic cockpit views, you'll have to look elsewhere because the PS2 can do only so much. Think about it. Cars. Tracks. Movies. Music. Online Play. Games can't do everything you ask it. The PlayStation 2 is not a living organism. GT4 doesn't have a brain. If so, if you ask the game and its console to do what you wish, it will be impossible. Like I'm playing "GTA: Vice City" right now. While I'm owning the VCPD, the SWAT Team, the FBI, now the U.S. Army on Vercetti's ass. If I wanted my PS2 and this game to do everything I want it to do, it would automatically switch over channels for when repetitive commercials and college football updates. I could ask it to play around with beautiful babies in strollers and cribs. So where I'm getting at is that GT4 will not have them. It's not going to happen. So pray for it to happen in GT5. If not, oh well. Player, you dig?
 
Imo, to make cockpit view takes too much time as there are so many cars in GT4. It is one of the feature that I want in a sim but not in this case... not with PD/KY and not in a console... and yeah as ppl on top have said, GT4 should be pushing the PS2 to it's near maximum performance. I rather want the game to run smoothly then experience super laggage during races.. I'm happy w/ what PD has done now.
On side note, if they are really gonna make a cockpit view, I'd expect they at least make it similar to the one in Battle Gear series... cuz BG's in-car view is decent-looking and I would think it's pretty easy to do comparing to LFS & GTR.
 
Just give me a hood/bonnet cam and i'll be happy, that would help me with the cars positioning a bit more than the standard bumper cam, or headlight cam or whatever the eff it is. And most games with cockpit view becomes slightly offputting with one massive steering wheel on the screen and the real wheel in your hands. Well at least it does to me anyway.
 
A full 3D virtual cockpit view would be nice, and a VR-headset to view it with would be even better, but we'll have to wait for PS3 for that.

As for a 2D cockpit, looking at the level of detail and eye candy in the GT series, I doubt the game creators would be happy with the look of it. It wouldn't do justice to the rest of the game.

A view of the bonnet would be great also. That's the view I prefer, but again it isn't totaly realistic, since the bonnet of many cars can't be seen from the normal driving possition, it gets blocked from view by the dashboard.
 
Nizar1980
You make me laugh ! you want a ColinMcRae-like crap cockpit or what ?
Your statement definitly proves you know nothing about game programming , so do you atleast know the PS2 hardware barely manages to handle the GT4 graphics without any noticable slowdowns or any other flaws ? So don't ask a lot from PD , we're still on PS2.
Click to expand...

screen4_large.jpg


Grand prix Challenge. 22 cars during a race. Cockpit views for each one. 60fps at all times with no slowdown ever. Cars composed of ~10-20K polys. Game pushes around 18million polys.

stype1in.jpg


Crappy game, great cockpit.

And yeah, i'm no programmer by trade.
 
NFS 1 had cockpit views that were 2D...many hours of driving the RX-7 in it and it's not that bad at all. Cirtainly better than just seeing 2 generic gauges simi-transparant and not knowing where the front of the car is, as the case in GT.
Hell, remember that one game for PS2...the physics sucked, but it had inside views of all of the cars in the game(like 50), and it was pretty cool, even if the gauges showed 140 when you were actually going 105...

Still, to make 2D interiors work, you need to have the gauges working...this requires the aligning of the needles, the need's calibration as well as speed, and some other issues. Is it possible? Yes. Is it effeciant for a game with 500 cars, probably not.

Ohh, just remembered, the game was Driving Emotion Type-S...it was actually kinda fun when I rented it...maybe it's time to find it used for $5, after all it did have Mazdas in it. 👍
 
Try the second outside view as featured in GT4 Prologue. That works also very good. Eyecandy and good control of the car.
 
If cockpits come in the gt series, I hope VR is in. I dont want to see the inside of my car on screen to tell ya the truth.
 
MistaY
Just give me a hood/bonnet cam and i'll be happy, that would help me with the cars positioning a bit more than the standard bumper cam, or headlight cam or whatever the eff it is. And most games with cockpit view becomes slightly offputting with one massive steering wheel on the screen and the real wheel in your hands. Well at least it does to me anyway.
Click to expand...

Agree with that! Give me the hood/bonnet view, and i'll make my laptimes even faster!
:dopey:
 
Adam West
Grand prix Challenge. 22 cars during a race. Cockpit views for each one. 60fps at all times with no slowdown ever. Cars composed of ~10-20K polys. Game pushes around 18million polys.
Click to expand...
If I remember correctly , GT 3 pushed more than 20 M polys a second.( according to a video games mag )
Lets count this:
5K polys per car *6 cars on track = 30 k polys *60 fps = 1800000 polys.
Around 40 k polys for modeling dynamic light reflections on each car = 40000*6 cars* 60 fps = 14400000.
And 5 M polys for a mid-sized track model.
= 18000000+1440000+5000000=21200000 polys a second.

This amount of polys may go up or down depending on what special effects the game is using ( still according to the mag ).

And off topic , I remember I've seen in a certain forum some polyphony 30000
polys cars ( a Mitsubishi Pajero ,and a Mercedes CLK ).The guy who posted them pretends he got them from someone who works for Polyphony , and says they're preview cars from GT5 in progress. I was going to make a thread for that but I didn't remember the site's URL
 
I find that when I'm driving, my field of vision centers almost completely around the road ahead -- I subconciously tune out the interior. If you use correct seating position and don't lean all the way back like a gangsta, you will stop 'seeing' your interior after a while.

There are more important things for the PD team to work on. Save dashboards and interiors for GT5 and PS3.
 
Nizar1980
If I remember correctly , GT 3 pushed more than 20 M polys a second.( according to a video games mag )
Lets count this:
5K polys per car *6 cars on track = 30 k polys *60 fps = 1800000 polys.
Around 40 k polys for modeling dynamic light reflections on each car = 40000*6 cars* 60 fps = 14400000.
And 5 M polys for a mid-sized track model.
= 18000000+1440000+5000000=21200000 polys a second.
Click to expand...

Uh, Kaz has said that GT3 cars are composed of about 2-4K polys. the playstation2 is supposed to do 60million polys with no effects. With effects turned on it's supposed to be 1/3rd of that, and that's theoretical. One of the games that pushes most polys is the Jack series, with the first one doing ~10million. Gt3 doesn't come close to that. The cars in Gt3 had 2D rims and no interior - lest we forget the garage cars aren't the cars you take on track.

By the math you've done, GPC has at least 10K polys per car. 10K x22cars@60fps. If you keep on with that math GPC would wind up pushing some 50million polys.

Finally, Kaz had said that the he'd like to one day include the full 'ring but that the track was too big and complex for ps2. After PGr2 had it, Enthusia and whatever other game that will feature it, we now have the 'ring on Gt series.

I'll settle for a hood view though and what NFS2 had: the actual gauges of the acr you're driving.
 
OK, this is just another of the things we want in GT4. What has been the answer?
Wait till the PS3. We all have or little things we ask of GT4 but keep in mind it's not like Kaz and PD can just cram that into a DVD and expect the game to run oh-so-smoothly as it always has. Take a look at Driving Emotion Type-S. I know it was an early game, but if you looked at the interiors (detailed) while the exterior and backgrounds, track objects etc. were bland as all hell. You can't have your cake and eat it too. So, until PS3, take what ya get, or pick ONE because you can't have a smooth game and great interiors for every car on the PS2. Hell, having the gauges of the real car alone instead of the generic gauges would be greatly appreciated.
 
mashoutposse
I find that when I'm driving, my field of vision centers almost completely around the road ahead -- I subconciously tune out the interior. If you use correct seating position and don't lean all the way back like a gangsta, you will stop 'seeing' your interior after a while.

There are more important things for the PD team to work on. Save dashboards and interiors for GT5 and PS3.
Click to expand...


I totaly agree, 1st person view works the best for me because you only see the road. 3th person view just does'nt work for me because the car is in the way.
Only the road in front of me is the best.
 
Shoot man, everyone keeps talking about this PS3... any real plans or dates?? You know the only real problem here is the totaly amount of data involved. A DVD only holds like 3-5 GB (i think). And thats packing it in, if you want much more than 500+ cars and tons of tracks, they will have to come out with either a two disk set or... a new type of media. Let me explain. A regular CD-ROM (PS1) reads only a wide band (i think white), DVD reads in a red beam (a much smaller wave, thus you can fit more on a cd), the next big thing was the "Blue Laser" witch could hold upto 40 GB on one side of the disk. If you had that kind of media, and a supporting team that could map out the interiors, it could happen, and alot more. you could even hang your favorite color of dice from the rear view mirror and watch them swing!

BUT:

even if they did all that, and had the interior, i still wouldnt use it, as someone said eariler, it takes up too much of the screen. but i did like the idea of the different gagues (but they would still have to be transparent for me to enjoy them). That i would be happy with.

here is a sight on the blue laser...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/03/04/blue.dvd.reut/
 
I'd love to discuss the PS3, but I'd rather not and do this in some other thread. Anyhow, I can understand why you'd want hands and steering wheel. But as much as I talk about going around in "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City," even that game featured interiors as well as watching Tommy Vercetti drive a car off. He'll even look back when reversing. While it was nice in Vice City, it would be tough in the GT series. As I told my GTP buddy Eagle about, I said that sometimes, some games can study other games to try to explore new grounds as to how to do their games. Like I told him about how Vice City had dynamic effects in time and weather, and how you can actually see clouds form up. To do it in GT4, they'd have to make for realistic and even beautiful cloud formations. I've kind of toyed around with raytracing. With raytracing, clouds, as well as other effects, would come on the fly.

But anyways, I can understand why you'd want to have visible hands and cockpits. What I can't understand is... what makes GT4 arcadish if it had hands and steering wheel? Answer me that, please. I know Sega Super GT/SCUD Race had them, but also "J & L Stock Car Racing" had them, along with nice cockpits, but the "arcade" thing gets me. Anyhow, cockpits and stuff aren't impossible for GT4. It's just more like... yeah, but not now.

Off-topic, my hearts and prayers are to everyone enduring Hurricane Ivan. I hear people from Mississippi, Louisiana, and such are coming into Texas. I hope everyone is alright, and may God be with you all.
 
JohnBM01
But anyways, I can understand why you'd want to have visible hands and cockpits. What I can't understand is... what makes GT4 arcadish if it had hands and steering wheel?
Click to expand...
I don't need a steering wheel and hands displayed on the screen, 'cos I have my own right in front of me.

JohnBM01
Off-topic, my hearts and prayers are to everyone enduring Hurricane Ivan.
Click to expand...
Your "hearts"? I always knew you were an alien. :eek:
 

Latest Posts

Back