Some tracks are the wrong size?

[Sander 001]

I've felt this for a while but I forgot about it. Now seeing the Japanese Grand Prix I was reminded again because the cars seem to have much more space in terms of track width. The hairpin and Spoon curves are most stark.

F1 cars have a similar width to GT cars but I also looked up some GTE races at Suzuka and the track very much looks wider than in GT Sport.

Watching some past races at Nurburgring and Interlagos I get the same feel. I should fire up Project Cars 2 and see what it has to say

 

[p78]

Nurburgring is so much narrower at some places in the game compared to real life

 

[G.T.Ace]

Nurburgring is so much narrower at some places in the game compared to real life

No it's not, the fov makes it seem that way.

The tracks are nearly spot-on and also mostly laserscanned.

 

[VBR]

No it's not, the fov makes it seem that way.

The tracks are nearly spot-on and also mostly laserscanned.

This!

 

[adb]

FOV/POV playing its tricks

 

[G.T.Ace]

FOV/POV playing its tricks

It's incredible how HUGE the tracks seem in VR.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

It's incredible how HUGE the tracks seem in VR.

It's the opposite effect for me. Bluemoon bay looks like a bath tub to me in VR while it seems to stretch on forever on TV due to the fov. Weird. I have the same thing with Wipeout VR, tracks feel a lot smaller. The corners and elevation changes are much more realistic in VR though. On TV it's all so stretched out thanks to the fov.

 

[Tired Tyres]

It's incredible how HUGE the tracks seem in VR.

I know. It is a remarkable difference at times. Brands Hatch Indy looks huge.

 

[TheNorfolkDad]

The Japanese Grand Prix not a good example, but the tracks looks bigger with F1 cars on because those guys know how to drive wheel to wheel. Lots of people on GT Sport struggle ha!

 

[eran0004]

It's the opposite effect for me. Bluemoon bay looks like a bath tub to me in VR while it seems to stretch on forever on TV due to the fov. Weird. I have the same thing with Wipeout VR, tracks feel a lot smaller. The corners and elevation changes are much more realistic in VR though. On TV it's all so stretched out thanks to the fov.

It’s actually the same effect.

With a wide FOV:
Road appears longer
Road appears narrower
Curvature appears lesser
Speed appears higher
Slopes appear flatter

With a narrow FOV: (VR)
Road appears shorter
Road appears wider
Curvature appears greater
Speed appears lower
Slopes appear greater

 

[Sven Jurgens]

It’s actually the same effect.

With a wide FOV:
Road appears longer
Road appears narrower
Curvature appears lesser
Speed appears higher
Slopes appear flatter

With a narrow FOV: (VR)
Road appears shorter
Road appears wider
Curvature appears greater
Speed appears lower
Slopes appear greater

Yep, that's all true, yet I also have the feeling everything is smaller than real life, like at three quarter scale as if I'm in Disneyland. Or for example when you return to a place from your childhood and everything seems a lot smaller than you remember because your perspective has changed. I get that same feeling in GT Sport in VR. The road actually doesn't appear wider in VR to me, about the same or more narrow, while shorter, sharper corners, lower speeds and steeper slopes are all true.

I drive in bumper cam on tv which is of course also a totally different perspective than cockpit view. Basically I have a toddler's eye viewpoint on the world on TV, and an adult's perspective in VR. That would explain the feeling that everything seems a lot smaller. Perhaps the opposite happens when you are used to chase cam / giant's eye viewpoint on tv and then switch to VR cockpit view.

 

[eran0004]

Yep, that's all true, yet I also have the feeling everything is smaller than real life, like at three quarter scale as if I'm in Disneyland. Or for example when you return to a place from your childhood and everything seems a lot smaller than you remember because your perspective has changed. I get that same feeling in GT Sport in VR. The road actually doesn't appear wider in VR to me, about the same or more narrow, while shorter, sharper corners, lower speeds and steeper slopes are all true.

I drive in bumper cam on tv which is of course also a totally different perspective than cockpit view. Basically I have a toddler's eye viewpoint on the world on TV, and an adult's perspective in VR. That would explain the feeling that everything seems a lot smaller. Perhaps the opposite happens when you are used to chase cam / giant's eye viewpoint on tv and then switch to VR cockpit view.

The “bumper camera” is actually not placed on the bumper. It’s basically the same perspective as the cockpit view, only it’s in the center rather than on the driver’s side, and the car is of course invisible.

Compare with this:

 

[DJShadesUK]

The “bumper camera” is actually not placed on the bumper. It’s basically the same perspective as the cockpit view, only it’s in the center rather than on the driver’s side, and the car is of course invisible.

The "bumper" cam may have the same FOV and vertical height as the cockpit view but its most certainly not just shifted to the center of the car; its way out in front of the front wheels. At times it feels like you're riding at the very front of a bus (in front of the front wheels) and you get that odd sensation of the vehicle pivoting behind you and a slightly delayed swinging motion on turning.

I think in GT6 the cam was roughly between the front wheels (maybe slightly behind them) so the bottom corners of the screen corresponded to exactly where the wheels were. I used to use that view the majority of the time, but in GTS, due to the above mentioned senstations, I find the "bumper" cam largely unusable. Now I exclusively use cockpit view, now I've gotten used to it, and would never go back to using anything else, any other view feels like cheating. I just wish there was an option to toggle the wheel and drivers arms on/off; not only would that be hugely better for wheel users but I find the slight delay in the animation to, at times, be a little bit distracting even using a controller.

 

[eran0004]

The "bumper" cam may have the same FOV and vertical height as the cockpit view but its most certainly not just shifted to the center of the car; its way out in front of the front wheels. At times it feels like you're riding at the very front of a bus (in front of the front wheels) and you get that odd sensation of the vehicle pivoting behind you and a slightly delayed swinging motion on turning.

I think in GT6 the cam was roughly between the front wheels (maybe slightly behind them) so the bottom corners of the screen corresponded to exactly where the wheels were. I used to use that view the majority of the time, but in GTS, due to the above mentioned senstations, I find the "bumper" cam largely unusable. Now I exclusively use cockpit view, now I've gotten used to it, and would never go back to using anything else, any other view feels like cheating. I just wish there was an option to toggle the wheel and drivers arms on/off; not only would that be hugely better for wheel users but I find the slight delay in the animation to, at times, be a little bit distracting even using a controller.

It’s not in the front of the car. If it were, the other car would cover the entire screen when you get close, and it doesn’t.

And a car pivots around the center of the rear axle, so when you’re driving you’re sitting in front of the pivot point.

 

[DJShadesUK]

It’s not in the front of the car. If it were, the other car would cover the entire screen when you get close, and it doesn’t.

And a car pivots around the center of the rear axle, so when you’re driving you’re sitting in front of the pivot point.

I never said it was at the very front of the car, I said it was in front of the front wheels. You seem to be suggesting that the camera doesn't move forwards or backwards, just to the centre of the car, well...

Some cars feel like the pivot point is far further than it should be, like you're driving an extremely fast rear wheel steer forklift truck, you can feel the car turning behind where the camera would suggest you're "sitting". Some cars are worse than others due to the length of the body and the wheelbase.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I never said it was at the very front of the car, I said it was in front of the front wheels. You seem to be suggesting that the camera doesn't move forwards or backwards, just to the centre of the car, well...

View attachment 771864

Some cars feel like the pivot point is far further than it should be, like you're driving an extremely fast rear wheel steer forklift truck, you can feel the car turning behind where the camera would suggest you're "sitting". Some cars are worse than others due to the length of the body and the wheelbase.

The forward shift in view compensates for sitting further back from the screen as you would while using a wheel and cockpit view. When I use cockpit view on tv I feel like I'm sitting in the back seat. In VR you look down to see the dashboard just as in real life. On TV it's always there which gives me the sensation of sitting further back.

Still I wonder if the perspective isn't actually lower in bumper cam as I can't see through the back window of the car in front of me when following close, staring at the trunk instead. I guess it isn't, it's the spoiler that's in the way.

(Watch out for that guy btw, serving his penalty in the corners and unghosting right in front trying to block) Watch out for #4 and #6 as well, that was a dirty Sunday evening race.

 

[eran0004]

I never said it was at the very front of the car, I said it was in front of the front wheels. You seem to be suggesting that the camera doesn't move forwards or backwards, just to the centre of the car, well...

View attachment 771864

That looks mostly like a field of view change. And if you measure the size change of distant objects and close objects you can see that they're more or less proportional (although it's hard to get precise values because the resolution is so poor), which indicates a field of view change rather than that the camera moved forwards.

Some cars feel like the pivot point is far further than it should be, like you're driving an extremely fast rear wheel steer forklift truck, you can feel the car turning behind where the camera would suggest you're "sitting". Some cars are worse than others due to the length of the body and the wheelbase.

That doesn't even make sense. First you say that the camera is positioned further towards the front and now you say that it feels like it's behind the pivoting point, i.e. behind the rear axle. That's two contradicting statements.

 

[DJShadesUK]

When I use cockpit view on tv I feel like I'm sitting in the back seat

You wouldn't be far off the correct seating position for a touring car then!

If anything GT's cockpit view, and the wheel, is actually too close to the dash.

 

[DJShadesUK]

That looks mostly like a field of view change. And if you measure the size change of distant objects and close objects you can see that they're more or less proportional (although it's hard to get precise values because the resolution is so poor), which indicates a field of view change rather than that the camera moved forwards.

I'm not sure if you're just clutching at straws but if you genuinely think there is a FOV change going on then may I suggest you perhaps visit an optician?

Look at the two reference points in the following GIF, made from the same two images. Apart from a slight perspective change (as the exterior camera also shifts from the driving position to centre of the longitudinal axis), the gantry legs and the sign stay pretty much the same size and not too far off the same positions.

However, note that to line up the shots the exterior shot had to be scaled down, effectively pushing it further into the scene (or back in 3D space), like the camera for the exterior shot was, umm, I don't know... further forwards than the cockpit camera.

EDIT: Forum backend doesn't seem to like very large GIFs, a smaller one, now above, works.

That doesn't even make sense. First you say that the camera is positioned further towards the front and now you say that it feels like it's behind the pivoting point, i.e. behind the rear axle. That's two contradicting statements.

I never said it feels like the camera is behind the pivot point. Keep trying.

 

[eran0004]

I'm not sure if you're just clutching at straws but if you genuinely think there is a FOV change going on then may I suggest you perhaps visit an optician?

How are my glasses relevant to my maths skills?

Look at the two reference points in the following GIF, made from the same two images. Apart from a slight perspective change (as the exterior camera also shifts from the driving position to centre of the longitudinal axis), the gantry legs and the sign stay pretty much the same size and not too far off the same positions.

However, note that to line up the shots the exterior shot had to be scaled down, effectively pushing it further into the scene (or back in 3D space), like the camera for the exterior shot was, umm, I don't know... further forwards than the cockpit camera.

Cool, so what you proved there is the same thing that my numbers showed: It's a field of view change. Scaling an image is equivalent to zooming, i.e. a field of view change. It's not equivalent to a camera position change. The fact that you could make the images align by scaling one of them proves that it's a field of view change and that the camera did not move along the x axis (forwards).

When a camera moves, the change in apparent object size is not proportional, since objects closer to the camera change size more than objects further away. Thus, you can't make two images align if the camera has changed position.

I never said it feels like the camera is behind the pivot point. Keep trying.

Yes you did:

"Some cars feel like the pivot point is far further than it should be, like you're driving an extremely fast rear wheel steer forklift truck."

A rear-wheel steer car pivots around the front axle, i.e. you're sitting behind the pivot point.

Edit: Just to illustrate the difference between moving a camera and changing its field of view. Here is a chart where I plotted the difference between moving the camera 1 meter and changing the field of view by -10 degrees. The scaling factor for the apparent size of an object is plotted for various distances. At 1000 meters away, an object's apparent size is barely changing when you move the camera one meter, while at 5 meters the apparent size is almost 25% greater.

At the same time you can see that all objects have their apparent sizes scaled uniformly when you change the field of view, in this case (going from 60 to 50 degrees) they all have a factor of 1.2.

Note that the dotted lines are just there to connect the various data points, the true values would follow a continuous curve.

When you scale an image up or down, you apply a uniform transformation, changing the apparent size of all objects by the same factor, so scaling is equivalent to changing the field of view - not to moving the camera.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I tend to agree with @eran0004 on the fov change. The camera doesn't seem to be further in front as in that picture I posted all 3 contact circles are lit, which means our bumpers are touching. If the camera was further forward, the spoiler should have been more in my face.

Also in the original comparison, If the camera moved a meter forwards, why does it seem the road further ahead is more compressed. The back wall and building seem to move a whole lot closer than just a meter. It should hardly make a difference if the fov stayed the same and only the camera moved.

 

[rex1825]

The only bad thing in GT, since they introduced real tracks in game, is lack of bumps. Even in GT Sport real tracks lack this a lot. I am sure it has a lot to do with suspension and tire simulation. But it feels non presented...

Allthough, for example on Fujis' PIT exit there is difference in track high, which is not presented in that way in game, and for example Nordschleife up hill section doesn't seem so uphill at all. All due to the PoV I think, but... There are more examples... Tracks alone are pretty spot on, maybe few years old scans but they are spot on...