Something scary they're teaching my first grader.

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Duke

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The other day, my seven-year-old daughter was helping me make dinner, for which I thanked her. Then she said something that chilled me to the bone:

"My teacher says we should always help others before we do something for ourselves."

I tried to calmly explain that I'm sure her teacher meant well, but that I disagreed completely. I explained that there was nothing wrong with helping yourself first so long as you weren't hurting anyone by doing that.

Why is it that we, and especially our kids, are bombarded with this sentiment? Why are we taught from a young age to put everybody else ahead of ourselves? Why are everybody else's desires valid but our own desires are not? I'm not for a dog-eat-dog society but I am for a society where people look after themselves and make sure not to interfere with others. But I stop short of thinking that anybody but my family and chosen friends are actually my responsibility.

This sort of goes parallel with parts of the anti-corporate thread, and is reinforced by a ton of anti-capitalist posting on the NationStates world site. Excessive greed that is satisfied immorally is obviously not acceptable.

But why is it wrong to take care of yourself first?
 
I think you answered your own question, in a way. It's not wrong to take care of yourself first, just as long as you don't hurt anyone in the process.
I'll reply more later.

OA
 
Well. I think it has something to to with the " Golden Rule" .
Let me ask you this, If you were mugged and laying on the street and needed help and never helped anyone else then how could you expect anyone to help you?
That's a little extreme but if you have never reached out to help someone who needed it then why would you ever expect someone to reach out and help you?
 
Originally posted by DGB454
Well. I think it has something to to with the " Golden Rule" .
Let me ask you this, If you were mugged and laying on the street and needed help and never helped anyone else then how could you expect anyone to help you?
That's a little extreme but if you have never reached out to help someone who needed it then why would you ever expect someone to reach out and help you?
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But notice that he didn't say that he'd never help someone.

Helping someone in an emergency is totally different from what neon_duke is talking about... sure, if there's an emergency, and you're not putting your own life in grave danger, then go ahead and help somebody who needs it.

But, putting others before yourself in everyday situations is the cause for concern here. For my own sanity, I'll go ahead and quote myself from the "Human Race" thread:

Originally posted by youth_cycler
Without going into specifics, the main core of what most people target as "selfish" is the word "want"... for some reason, "want" has turned into a sinful word. Humans just can't want things... we have to give things. Why? Why can't we have wants? People say it's wrong to want money. Why? If I didn't want money, I'd throw it right back in someone's face the second they gave it to me! What's wrong with wanting things? Aren't the greatest inventions my mankind... the wheel, electricity, computers, didn't all of them come from the premise that someone wanted it, wanted to make it alive, wanted to make it a reality?

These days, some people "have" to give to charity to feel good. Why? You earned that money, so it's yours. Yes, if someone genuinly (sp?) wants to give to charity, then that's just fine. But why must all the rich people give to charity? Is that their obligation now, now that they're rich?

Man cannot function correctly in a selfless environment. If I were truly selfless, then what I want is based on what other people want me to want, and what their neighbors want them to want, and what their neighbors want them to want, and so on, into one big never-ending circle of people basing their wants on other people's wants. And, you know what? We'd never get a thing done in this world if that's how it was... if everyone were selfless.

Engineers build because they want to build, to erect with their own thoughts something that no animal could do but the human, not because their neighbor wants them to. Designers design because they want to improve on a design and see the beautiful things that the human hand can create, not because it's the thing that his neighbor wants. Inventors invent things because they want to see what their mind can accomplish, what wonderful new things they can make, not because the rest of the world demands it. All of these people are selfish, because they, personally, want to do something, want to make something, want to foster their mind into creating glorious things.

And, what is wrong with all of this? Humans depend on our wants, because that's what has created a tolerable living envirnoment for us, since, as neon_duke has already attested, we don't really have any decent "natural" defenses. Our wants have driven the world forward, and it is also our wants that'll help keep us from "destroying" the world (cleaner engines didn't just come out of nowhere, you know).
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Originally posted by neon_duke
"My teacher says we should always help others before we do something for ourselves."
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Yeah, a thinly veiled argument for the Golden Rule, which is fine for a classroom setting, but not quite relevant for life outside the daily world.

Like Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs (sp?): If you can't take care of your own basic needs (not wants!) first, then you can't proceed to higher things on the pyramid like communication, acceptance, blah blah blah.

The Me-First!-ers and the You're-Selfish!-folk are both equally annoying. If feel like doing a good deed, I do so not because someone's watching, it's because I care at that moment. But I'm not going to starve myself so 10 other people can get spare change for some cheap liquor.
 
Yes Neon Duke, I find your daughter's teacher's comment to be a bit out of line. However, I think she had good intentions.

I have found that the majority of society today are arogand demanding pricks. I am a system administrator / technical support guy for a local ad agency. The people there can be real jerks when their stuff isn't going just the way they want.

My parents own a retail shop in town, also, and they have some real interesting stories about customers who demand things to be a certain way. They come in expecting a certain kind of service and attention.

I attribute this to parents who tell their children that they are the most important thing in the world and showing them that a little whining will get you what you want. And the occational temper tantrum just keeps everyone at your beckon call.

If this is the case ... the teacher may possibly be attempting to combat that. I can't fault her for the goal, but we can definitely fault her for the method. Children need to understand that they are special and that people care about them. They also need to understand that they're not special to everyone (: We need to be self-sufficient. And we need to help others in our daily lives.

You guys may be taking it to the extreme, so lets back off for a moment and take it to a minimal approach. There's nothing wrong with helping someone reach something on a high shelf. Or giving someone a quarter for a parking meter. But when it comes to "me or you", they need to make sure they take care of themselves first.
 
Ok let me ask you this. If you have a neighbor who is 80 yrs. old and is out shoveling her driveway and you have yours to do would you help her first or let her do her own while you do yours?
 
Originally posted by DGB454
Ok let me ask you this. If you have a neighbor who is 80 yrs. old and is out shoveling her driveway and you have yours to do would you help her first or let her do her own while you do yours?
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We're not going to get anywhere with a bunch of specific examples.

The point is, people should be helping others because they sincerely want to, not because society has told them that they have to. Just because someone has gotten into a rut, whether or not it's their fault, and so is homeless, doesn't mean that I'm obligated to give them money. Sure, if I want to, if I genuinely want to, then I'd go ahead.

But why are we being raised to give everyone help without looking after ourselves? If we were to looked after our own butts more often, don't you think that we'd need less help?

I'm personally a relatively selfish person (in the sense of the quote that I posted above, not in the sense that society has taught us today), so I'm a pretty self-sufficient person, and rarely ask for help on anything unless I truly need it. On the other hand, I know plenty of people who have helped others all their lives, but couldn't take care of themselves if their whole life depended on it.
 
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

We as adults are used to the cruel world we live in. We've been beaten up by it, and we've beaten it on occasion. But in the eyes of a first grade student the world is not cruel and evil. Therefore we must help those around us to enjoy this beautiful place we live.

I agree that teaching students we should all get along and help each other (study groups, group homework assignments..blah, blah) is an important part of society. But to shield them from what the world is really like, is blatanly wrong.

No to go off on specific examples, but I have a very clear one. I attended college a bit later than the other students. I was in the midst of a real world job. So when I went into my first drafting course in college, I was a fewyears up on my skills and abilities. So I posted up one of my drawings to give others an example of what a clean, accurate drawing was. I came back two hours later to find a note tacked up, that said "this is not a competition, we are supposed to respect each other". A sub script had been added by another student that read "Ready or not, the real world is a comeptition."

This issue of protecting our children from the real world, until they are ready for it is absurd. What is a students first clue that the world is a competition? When they compare their grades to others.

Why should you not talk to your newborn in "baby talk"? because it hampers their conception of words.

Now we get onto the topic of respect. This is what the teacher was attempting to do. Other people need respect and help. The earlier you teach your children respect, the better person they will be. Why should you shovel her driveway first? I'm betting your neighbor has a few more shovefuls in her life than you have. She deserves respect, which is why you should help her.

We as a nation have to think about the other person. We as a person have to think about ourselves. That is a very tough line to teach to a very young mind. How would you teach that theory, Duke?

AO
 
Everyone has different "morals". The teacher needs to descriminate beteen idealism and education.

The teaching of morality needs to stay in the home and out of the schools. It's was wrong for the teacher to say that. It'as his/her job to supply your child with factual information only,... not preaching. Though I'm sure it was intended to be good,...
 
Primary starts usually at age 6.
We also have Kindergarten and Pre-K educational models. On top of that there has been use of an Early Childhood Education center in some areas.

AO
 
Public.

We have Kindy and Preschool in Australia.

Kindergarden = 4
Preschool = 5
Primary school = 5-12
High school = 13-17 (if you decide to continue through to Yr 12)
 
Public.

We have Kindy and Preschool in Australia.

Kindergarden = 4
Preschool = 5
Primary school = 5-12
High school = 13-17 (if you decide to continue through to Yr 12)
 
Public.

We have Kindy and Preschool in Australia.

Kindergarden = 4
Preschool = 5
Primary school = 5-12
High school = 13-17 (if you decide to continue through to Yr 12)
 
I'm with LoudMusic. Teaching kids to share and be helpful is a good thing. My parents raised me that way and I guess it was reinforced in school, but frankly I can't remember (one good reason to not get too excited over what your daughter's teacher said). But the notion that we should teach kids to be servile wimps, which is what the teacher's statement, taken to the extreme, would be, is wrong. We've all known doormats and don't want our kids to be one.

There are situations where the teacher's statement would be true. I'm thinking of sitting at the dinner table and there is plenty of food for everybody. You slap a glob of potatoes on your sibling's plate before you take your own... no fear of going without, just being polite and kind. I'll bet that is what the teacher was getting at.

Also, not every comment a teacher makes will amount to anything a week later of a year later. I had some ****ty, abusive teachers, and some misguided ones whom never should have been listened to; today whatever they said to me is either irrelevant or forgotten.

I think about this kind of thing all the time and wonder how I will react in the not too distant future. When it's my kid I may not be so objective.
 
Originally posted by pupik : Yeah, a thinly veiled argument for the Golden Rule, which is fine for a classroom setting, but not quite relevant for life outside the daily world.
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Actually, the Golden Rule is perfectly valid all over. I respect people by not interfering with what they do, and I don't ask for help if I can possibly avoid it. That's precisely how I'd like to be treated myself. And as youth_cycler has pointed out, I'm not talking about emergencies, I'm talking about day-to-day life.
Originally posted by Loud Music : I have found that the majority of society today are arogand demanding pricks. The people there can be real jerks when their stuff isn't going just the way they want.

...customers who demand things to be a certain way. They come in expecting a certain kind of service and attention.

I attribute this to parents who tell their children that they are the most important thing in the world and showing them that a little whining will get you what you want.
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What you are referring to are people who demand you help them. It's the opposite side of the same coin, and you're right, it's just as bad. Teaching that you must sacrifice yourself to others and teaching that others must sacrifice themselves to you simply come at the question form opposite sides, and are equally unacceptable.

Instead it should be taught that we each are morally required to help ourselves, and that it can be advantageous to exchange help with others.
Originally posted by Loud Music : And we need to help others in our daily lives.
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Why? This is the crux of my argument. Why are we taught that we must do this? To me it is more moral to teach that we must help ourselves, and respect other people's right to help themselves. If all are taught that, and the majority accept it, then we are each free to meet our own needs and desires, free from interference. There is a fundamental difference between making sure I'm not hurting anyone, and being morally required to help them. I think the first one is morally correct and appropriate, and I think the second one is not. It is my duty not to prevent someone from improving their situation, but it is not my moral duty to improve it for them.

That's how I would teach it, Der Alta. I don't think the two are separated as you say. As individuals and groups we must do what is best for ourselves without being unfair to others. 'Unfair' does not mean that we must provide everyone with the same resources. 'Fair' does not mean that inequality will not exist. It just means that each individual or group has an equal chance to use whatever resources they posess.

And FWIW, my daughter is in public school, first grade, which she was 6 when she began. She was 5 when she began half-day Kindergarten in the same school
Originally posted by milefile
Teaching kids to share and be helpful is a good thing.
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Actually, I prefer the Montessori model, where kids are not taught to automatically share. Each kid uses the learning materials in which they are currently interested, until they are done with their experiment. Then the next kid gets a chance. Instead of teaching kids that they must share and may not have anything to themselves, it teaches them respect and courtesy - because next time they are the one waiting, so it is in their best interest to develop the courtesy to make sure everybody gets a turn in a timely manner. In a classroom setting it actually works great about 99% of the time.
There are situations where the teacher's statement would be true. I'm thinking of sitting at the dinner table and there is plenty of food for everybody. You slap a glob of potatoes on your sibling's plate before you take your own... no fear of going without, just being polite and kind.
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That is common courtesy, and not the kind of situation to which I'm referring. The same thing goes with the example of the old lady shovelling her driveway. Helping her is one part courtesy, and one part putting a favor on account - I help with her driveway this week; maybe next week she sits my kids for an evening.
Also, not every comment a teacher makes will amount to anything a week later of a year later.
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True. I survived some perfectly awful teachers. But I'm just wondering why the "you must help others" idea is held so unquestionsingly as a moral ideal, and is so prevalent in education and the media.
 
Maybe your daughters teacher met you and saw that you were a bit of a stuckup prick. Maybe she thought she'd try and give your daughter a point in the right direction before she turned into you. This is totally hypothetical though.
 
Perhaps she did. I'll have to make sure she stays away from anybody else like you...
 
Originally posted by Sludge Slide
Maybe your daughters teacher met you and saw that you were a bit of a stuckup prick. Maybe she thought she'd try and give your daughter a point in the right direction before she turned into you. This is totally hypothetical though.
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That is really low, man... messing with someone's family like that. Very low, indeed.
 
Originally posted by Sludge Slide
Maybe your daughters teacher met you and saw that you were a bit of a stuckup prick. Maybe she thought she'd try and give your daughter a point in the right direction before she turned into you. This is totally hypothetical though.
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Where did that come from?!

Easy there, Sludge.
 
Why is it that we, and especially our kids, are bombarded with this sentiment? Why are we taught from a young age to put everybody else ahead of ourselves? Why are everybody else's desires valid but our own desires are not?
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Thats because its biblical in meaning and is what Jesus did. Whats wrong with that?
But why is it wrong to take care of yourself first?
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Nothing as long it doesnt cloud your respect for others and own self interests. Loving oneself is biblically incorrect (King James Version Bible).
The teaching of morality needs to stay in the home and out of the schools.
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Word and nicely said but not implemented.
 
Maybe your daughters teacher met you and saw that you were a bit of a stuckup prick. Maybe she thought she'd try and give your daughter a point in the right direction before she turned into you. This is totally hypothetical though.
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I didnt see anything that was name calling.
Good opinion albeit a bit judgmental.
I doubt a teacher would make this evaluation as they have problems of their own and dont have time to teach proper morals upon meeting a parent they dont approve of. :rolleyes:
Misnblu
 

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