Sound Off! How to Silence the Critics

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JohnBM01

JohnBM01

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JMarine25
This is the first-ever Sound Off! in the GT5 forums. What are they all about? Simple. There's an issue that doesn't pertain to the game in general, or a situation in general, but there is something that obviously needs your opinion. This time, it's about what the next Gran Turismo will have to provide to silence critics.

GTP, I've heard all sorts of things. Perhaps people were expecting too much out of Gran Turismo 4. I seen GameSpot's video review on Gran Turismo 4, and one quote I can remember was about GS saying that GT4 lacks any real evolution, especially among the artificial intelligence. Many people think that GT4 is still easy even with all that's changed. I think one such comment is that people can still bring an overpowered car and easily win races. Heh. I bet your Motul Pitwork Z could easily blow away the pack in the GT World Championship. I bet your Fiat 500R can easily win the 24 Hours at the Nurburgring. And hey, online play was promised, but you were relegated to LAN play. Well guess what? I didn't ask for too much in Gran Turismo 4, and I still love this game. I'm not likely to play through GT3 again until I get REALLY bored with GT4. There are some people who believe that the weak points Gran Turismo games have had over the years will never be fixed again. Crummy AI. Easy to win races with seriously overpowered cars. No damage. No online. Nothing Forza has already. Unrealistic rally races. More on driving than racing. I've heard and read it all, and I'm sick of it. What can I do about it? I'm a 22-year old community college student here in Houston, Texas, USA. I'm not the head of a game company or even part of the design team for a game company. I can't address certain complaints overheard about Gran Turismo games.

So GTPlanet, how must the next Gran Turismo be to actually impress the hardcore critics? Take into account all the flak Gran Turismo games have been given by hardcore critics say about the game. I think Gran Turismo games have yet to disappoint me. I don't ask for much, just make things fun, interesting, immersive, and deep. You do that, I'll love your game for weeks and months to come. But since GT has been around for just under 10 years, many of us are probably thinking "how must the next GT be good enough so even hardcore critics won't feel completely disappointed or feel redundant?" GTPlanet, sound off!
 
Basically, it'd be like a wishlist.. hehe.

Better AI
Damage
More cars per race
Online
Restrictions.. meh, maybe, maybe not.

And it would still have to be everything that GT has always been.. realism, control, physics, jaw-dropping graphics, etc.

Hm.. now that I think about it, they don't ask for much, do they?
 
Jedi2016
Basically, it'd be like a wishlist.. hehe.

Better AI
Damage
More cars per race
Online
Restrictions.. meh, maybe, maybe not.

And it would still have to be everything that GT has always been.. realism, control, physics, jaw-dropping graphics, etc.

Hm.. now that I think about it, they don't ask for much, do they?
Click to expand...
Hopefully, it seems there's only 3 main things PD need to get as we know more cars are in.
 
You can't silence the critics. There will always be some.

99% of the GT4's reviews has one things in common - people who were writing it didn't even bother to play the game. Period. GT4 is a techincal and gameplay masterpiece and one of the most challenging games ever made. It has bring so much into the genre that no game ever has, in any genre.

"Hardcore" users will always find something that game lacks. Wether it is full-damage model that will blow up your car in flames after collision with a fence, or different dials for all cars.

"Normal" users will always blob about in-game 3D rims or something.

However, the hard fact is that GT series in the most evolving game-series ever, weather some liked it or not. "Revolution" can't be expected, since the first GT game was a revolution. Every new GT game is an Evolution of the Revolution and if someone uses this sentence/slogan without paying me a serios money for the copyright, I'll sue it's arse for every pathetic penny :).
 
Well, I haven't heard or read a lot of critical analysis on Forza Motorsport, so some people must think FM is just about perfect, or think "it's about time there's a worthy challenger to Gran Turismo." Forza even rubbed it in by coming up with a Forza commercial saying "EGM raves that Forza is better than Gran Turismo 4." Like I said several times before, Gran Turismo has come a long way. I think even Kazunori Yamauchi didn't think GT1 would be a hit, look what happened. Gran Turismo is perhaps, the best racing game series of the modern era. Then it was Pole Position, then Ridge Racer, then the fluid Daytona USA, I even have respect for the WipeOut Series. But I don't know. Not a lot of people think things have REALLY changed.

I know I shouldn't trust G4 Television, but watching "Judgment Day" once, Gran Turismo 4 was compared to Enthusia Professional Racing. The two hosts, Tommy Tallarico and Victor Lucas said that both games (GT4 included) have some disappointments, but still GT4 would be the better game. As a gaming fan and veteran of racing game experience, you have to look around. See what everyone is talking about. Read what people love and hate about a game. The premise behind this thread proposes the question "how can we silence as many critics as possible by giving them what they want?" GT4 was a big game. So many races, so many cars, so many aspects and features. I've NEVER said it was easy because I try to give games a chance, especially those which others may not like.

I don't consider myself too soft on these subjects, but I like giving things a chance. About the last racing game I've given a chance and didn't really like was "Juiced." I still believe that GT4 has something for everyone. Gran Turismo games aren't perfect, as life isn't perfect. So when the next game comes out, I'm not going to hate on a lack of evolution. But my Croatian friend, you may be right. Maybe some people don't actually PLAY the game or just want to get it over with.

Carry on, if you wish.
 
as long as it doesnt try to be more realistic than reality ill be happy....my two key examples are MSFS and Forza.....the graphics in GT4 are perfect, not overdoing it with superglare and super dust or super sidewaystirewairthatdissapearsatthenextcorner (as in Forza)......
 
AI that is actually challenging, i dont care if the maximum cars on track become 2! If i have a good tough race long battle with that one car where ive got to think about my moves, drive smart, wait for the right moment, think a few turns ahead, do what real racing is about, I'm damn happy. Unlke now where i just have to dive deeper under brakes and the pass is easy made, and its not hard to go deeper than the amazingly early braking AI

Conclusion- not just faster AI, AI that will make it hard to pass, will take a defensive line, etc.
 
Something else to take into account is that though totally unrelated, I think no one really jumps on Forza for being realistic. I don't know. Maybe it just seems that games like the Burnout series are praised a lot since they add new to the racing/driving game genre. Perhaps many would think that the Gran Turismo type of racing game is kind of getting old with all sorts of copycats and all who want the spotlight for themselves. Remember me in the past? I bashed Forza Motorsport almost every day. While I still prefer GT4 over Forza regardless of differences, I say nowadays that Forza Motorsport is still a great racing game XBOX gamers can be proud of if [somehow] gamers are bored with PGR and want a sim game to match up with GT4. Not to be a critic myself, but it seems like to some people, racing and driving games in the mold of Gran Turismo is getting old with no real means of innovation. Capcom's first racing game that I know of, Auto Modellista, brought about great cell-shaded graphics and a tuning-happy interface, but I think many people dismissed the game on many levels. Enthusia Professional Racing was Konami's first racing game in a while, and I think the graphics are great. Funny thing is that this game includes all sorts of vehicles. Who'd race a Chevrolet Astro? There were even a nice selection of cars GT4 didn't have. For example, the Austin Healey Sprite (old bug eyes!), the two AudiSport Japan Team Goh Audis, and a selection of SUVs.

Regardless, I still believe Gran Turismo is still the bar by which most racing games are measured. I don't know if it is a case of "all this, but no real evolution." This is like saying get rid of all the cars, the pretty graphics, the many tracks, and all you have is the same game over and over again. This is by many hardcore critics. Also said repeatedly is all the talk on no damage, no certain types of cars, or whatever. Oh yeah, no online. I think many people really trashed on GT4 for that. I even said that PD tried their best, couldn't get it to work, had to trash the deal, sorry. On top of that, as popular as LAN parties are among devoted gamers, not once have I heard of a GT4 LAN party. I don't know. Do some people just don't give games a chance? Is GT4 really "GT3-2?" If people are going to look for any excuse to rat on GT4, the next GT is going to have to continue impressing veterans and novices, while making some of the crankiest of critics eat their words and be impressed.
 
McLaren F1GTR
Simple. Actually fix the stupid AI, and put restrictions on races.
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That would pretty much shut me up.

Add to that a choice of difficulty level, and I would probably be silenced for good.
 
If GT5 doesnt offer the level of customisation and online racing as Forza does then it will serious piss me off........GT4 felt boring after a while and that is the first time I have been bored with a GT title......
 
How to silence the critics?

You can't.
 
Mind u, has anyone seen the gt5 video's at e3, jesus it looks amazing!, the sound from the cars is so much better, theres a 8 sec in car part and the sounds awsome
 
You have to take the good with the bad. Every mag and site(except actual car mags; motertrend, Car&driver etc.)Dogged the heck out of GT, but turn right around and compare every other racing game to it. why? because it's the best we have. why is Forza acting like Miller lite and advertizing GT every chance it gets? because it's the best we have. ever since Ridge Racer 4(very good game btw) GT has been the one to beat, reguardless of genre. why? because it's the best we have. and only another gt can be better than a gt.

when you are on top there will always be crittics to belittle your work and lazy competition who try to copy it.
 
Spoken like a true Houstonian, TEK[R]. :) Nice to have someone else out of Southeast Texas on here.

I don't know if this is a case of GT4 being a "love to hate" game deal or not to be honest. When Gran Turismo is out there in the mainstream, I want to try to catch up with that deal. I thought Gran Turismo 4 was just about perfect except for a few features that could have made it better than great. This is why I said that if bigtime European exotics were in the game, it still wouldn't make a difference as long as the gameplay dynamics weren't up to par. It would be like saying that "Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed" is one of the best racing games of all times, because it has a manufacturer that you'll find nowhere else. This is why I said that I wouldn't buy Forza Motorsport even to just do online racing and race Ferraris and Porsches. I've been a longtime Gran Turismo fan, and I'm really convinced. The last time I was convinced about a game series was when I played "True Crime: Streets of LA" before getting "Grand Theft Auto 3" and "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" from my brother. This was back last year or two years ago, so it's been a while since one game series of one genre has convinced me wholeheartedly.

I ask again, people. Did people expect too much out of Gran Turismo 4? I'm hardly expect anything for a game, especially Gran Turismo games. I think each GT game is an evolution in at least something. I hardly heard any rants about Forza Motorsport except for its soundtrack. I don't get it sometimes. Is Gran Turismo's current formula getting old? Is Forza actually the new measuring stick of racing games? Is Forza's implementation and of online gaming really sets itself apart from Gran Turismo 4 for miles? Is Forza taking advantage of elements GT4 didn't have? Did they capitalize enough to make this game much more better than GT4? By the way some people talk about Forza compared to GT4, some people make it sound like PD should be ashamed of not having online play or damage or a bunch of other stuff. I do agree that GT4 is the best out there, and I'm proud as long as some other game isn't (regardless of on another system) the best game right now. This is the assumption that I don't own a PS2, a Gamecube, an XBOX, and a rigged-out PC.

By the way TEK[R], you make great points. So what would you say about GT4 vs. Burnout 3?
 
I own gt4 and burnout3. I enjoyed the feeling of speed and over the top wrecks in burnout. The thing is, even though burnout has several different modes of play, I still choose gt4 over burnout everyday. The unrealistic physics of burnout and other arcade style racing games annoys me. I love being able to pick practically any real world car and drive on real race tracks. I love being able to experiance the different characteristic between one car and another. I have a good time evin if I don't win a race. For example I've been racing with a fully tuned aston martin db9 in the gran turismo world championship. I have no chance of winning, but I love the feel(dfp wheel) and sound and look of just driving this car. You can never experiance this in an arcade racer like burnout3.
 
I have been playing gran turismo since the 1st one and i have always loved the changes they make with each addition to the series. I have played many racing games over the years from Pole Position to Forza Motorsport and GT4 is still the best even if not by the greatest margin. I liked the damage in forza and the a.i. was at least somewhat competitive but still not where it needs to be. So all i believe Polyphony needs to do is make the a.i. better. If the graphics were any better i would think i was really in the car. and damage is not necessary to make the game any better but it could make it more difficult. :)
 
When it comes to AI, I haven't seen much in online and offline publications about AI. Do we really make a big deal out of the AI issue, or do most media don't really talk about the AI much? I usually talk about bad AI, with "Pro Race Driver" being the worst. I still can't forget braking into a turn, and a car rammed into me from the back, spun me out into the grass, ruining the rear end of my car. So I don't make much of a big deal about it. But then, that's just me.

One thing I didn't agree with is that GT4 was extremely difficult. Like I said, I lost my very first race in GT4 when I used my partially-tuned VW Golf that I won in the License Tests. My first race was at Autumn Ring Mini Reverse in the Sunday Cup. I kept making money, modding up my car, and I began to win quite a lot. When I finally got a used, green 1998(?) Mitsubishi 3000GT, I had more confidence in winning races. On top of that, I took this car to the Special Conditions race, and started making even more money. The Gran Turismo World Championship wasn't going to be easy. I thought the Jaguar XJR9 was going to my winning car, and failed pretty damn bad. Some of it was timing, some of it was good skill, then that little bit of luck. The sense of speed and new driving dynamics are unlike any GT before. It made racing even more critical to want to win. But I disagree that GT4 was extremely difficult. I guess it was made like this so that the people who think GT games were too easy, would be given a greater challenge. One person clarified it was too easy because you can still take a purely powerful car and still blow out everyone on track. I think if you don't give yourself a challenge, then of course it's going to be too easy. This is a comment I've normally seen here on GTPlanet, not in any publication.

Regardless, I'll still support the Gran Turismo series because I love it and "grown up" with it. I just don't see GT4 being any sort of disappointment to anyone. I thought it was about near perfect, yet a lot of mainstreamers were knocking GT4 like it's "GT3 Volume 2." I don't ask for much. Be good, be fun, be interesting, I'll love the game. I'm not real critical on games, yet I sometimes wonder, what would really make some cranky and demanding people love this game and this game series. If some of GT5's info is true, this game and game series may be better respected.
 
Here's what I'd want:

-A better sense of speed.

-Tire marks that dont dissapear and more smoke.

-And for PS3 to have a good online (XB Live like) setup with online racing, etc enabled on GT5.
Then what others have said about the AI, etc.
 
TEK[R]
You have to take the good with the bad. Every mag and site(except actual car mags; motertrend, Car&driver etc.)Dogged the heck out of GT, but turn right around and compare every other racing game to it. why? because it's the best we have. why is Forza acting like Miller lite and advertizing GT every chance it gets? because it's the best we have. ever since Ridge Racer 4(very good game btw) GT has been the one to beat, reguardless of genre. why? because it's the best we have. and only another gt can be better than a gt.

when you are on top there will always be crittics to belittle your work and lazy competition who try to copy it.
Click to expand...
Bravo. :) Magazines and other racing games can say anything they want about GT4. GT4 still is the game to beat.
 
in a nutshell i would say the driving on gt4 is much better whilst the customization on forza was better so was hte inclusion of ferrari, porsche and the bentley conti gt, as well gt4 would have been the best game ever if it had online play, much better a.i as well as a grid of atleast 16 cars and a paintshop like in forza, so thats what i think would silence the critics:tup: 👍 👍 👍
 
When you talk about game magazines and how they feel about Gran Turismo 4, online is the number one priority among the American gaming mainstream. My primary defense is that Polyphony Digital kept the promise of online play, tried to get it all in, but couldn't. You have to at least give credit to PD for trying. They held onto the promise of online play, and even in a losing effort, they kept the promise. I believe on April 5th, 2005, G4 TV show "X-Play" reviewed Gran Turismo 4. While giving the game a "5 out of 5" rating, this was one inexact quote from Adam Sessler:

"...There is no online play, which is definitely disappointing. In it's place, we get a Photo Mode." -Adam Sessler, "X-Play" co-host, April 5, 2005(?)

"In its place." In it's place... people, correct me if I'm wrong, but which event came first- the announcing of Photo Mode, or online play dropped from GT4? I believe Photo Mode happened long before online play was dropped. So how can you say "in its place" when it comes to a feature that's been around longer than online play being dropped? And don't get me started on dropping online mode and putting in online play for GT4. Think about it like this. WHY would you implement a game feature that isn't 100% complete? Photo Mode was a reality, online play wasn't, so who's to blame? No one! Some would think this is just about milking online play so that people don't get a chance to do a little extra with their gaming experience. With the stylish graphics in GT4, Kazunori Yamauchi had a heart for photography, wanted us to share that love with our virtual speed demons, and guess what? Photo Mode was liked by many of us GTPlanet members. Two things. Number one, multiplay isn't really popular with GT games. I hear of some tournaments, but do you hear of GT4 LAN Parties like with Halo gamers and Call of Duty? Number two, we cannot, can not, CAN NOT let online play decide whether GT4 would be a good game without this sort of feature. The game has to be good solo before you take it out against others. Especially if a game is not real popular in multiplayer, why make it such a big factor?

This is just something else I disagree with the media. Maybe I should join the media and express my own views whether anyone can give a rat's ass or not. But I'm better off a message board participant. Carry on, please.
 
I also think part of the problem is that the Gran Turismo series is now viewed as the 'Establishment'. Some people (or maybe even many people) dislike something merely for the reason that they view it as being 'too popular'. The thing is, racing games are inherently limited. All racing games follow the basic formula of cars racing around a track, there is not much more that you can change from that. You can add damage, replays, tuning, Photomode... all they are are evolutions on the same formula.

As well, if you were to look closely at Forza, you'd find that the AI is still not all that good. If the AI in GT3 was about 5% realistic, then GT4 would be about 10% and Forza would be 20%. We still have a long way to go for highly-realistic, computer-controlled cars. It's just that Forza is a new game, and so people aren't being too harsh on it.
 
I can't compare GT4 with Forza because I don't own a XBOX so I don't know the game.

But I can compare GT4 with Enthusia. I own both games and this is my experience. When I bought Enthusia I was at about 87% in GT4, all races, championships, licenses, missions, done BUT the long endurance races and the formula championship (because I don't have a formula car, that can only be won in the 24 hours Nurb race).

I bought Enthusia when it was released, nearly two months ago. And, since I started playing it, I never even touched GT4 again. Why, considering that Enthusia:

a) has great cars, but less than GT4;
b) has great tracks, but less than GT4;
c) has great graphics, maybe on par with GT3, but not awesome as GT4 graphics are;
d) has fewer and less detailed tuning options;
e) has no LAN play;
f) has no endurance races;
g) has no B-Spec;
h) has no Photomode;
i) has just the same 6-car grids as in GT4;

So, in theory, GT4 is far better than Enthusia. However, the fact remains. I have now nearly 100% done in Enthusia (only one "gold" missing in the equivalent to license tests), so I'm technically replaying it already, but when I get home and have a litkle time to play I still choose it over GT4, if I just want to do a "free race" or even a "time attack".

All I can say is that, somehow, the driving and the racing in Enthusia are addictive. It is harder to drive it, the cars are much more sensitive, with very different behaviour from on to another (also true concerning their sounds, all great - better than GT4 - and all different), and you really must learn to use the brakes and throttle much more cautiously than while playing GT4.

Also, the AI is far from perfect but it is still much better than in GT4. And that means a lot, when we're talking about having a good and chalenging race.

And I guess that just these two "Enthusia advantages" (car physics; AI) make for a better overall racing experience.

So, I would advise PD to improve Gran Turismo here.

Apart from that, if I had to make an extensive review on GT4 I would criticize the unexplainable impossibility to save mid race (for the ones that don't like to use B-Spec and still want to drive the long enduros it's a major "thumbs down" in this game) and also the lack of realism in 24 hour races without night driving.

PS - If my post isn't very clear, please take in consideration that english is not my native language.
 
JohnBM01
When it comes to AI, I haven't seen much in online and offline publications about AI. Do we really make a big deal out of the AI issue, or do most media don't really talk about the AI much? I usually talk about bad AI, with "Pro Race Driver" being the worst. I still can't forget braking into a turn, and a car rammed into me from the back, spun me out into the grass, ruining the rear end of my car. So I don't make much of a big deal about it. But then, that's just me.
Click to expand...

"Gamers" in general would rather play games that look pretty rather than games that offer any kind of real challenge or depth. I've seen plenty of on-line review sites openly bash a game's AI and/or gameplay only to tout its graphics and give it an outstanding rating anyhow.

Its the next big industry, well.. I say "next" but its pretty much there by now. The same thing is going to happen to gaming that's happened to everything else that has ever attained mass popular appeal; its going to start sucking for anyone who liked it -before- it became another popular phenomenon.

I still spend plenty of time playing games, but the hobby itself is starting to get a little slow. Heck, half the reason I went out and bought a PS2 was because there was nothing out for my old PC that looked worthwhile at all.
 
On the subject of a.i. it just needs to be a little more like racing actual people, not that there is no challenge from the current a.i. (I have lost my share of races) but they just need to react to the player and not by just bumping them. Such as moving out of the way when the passing car is so much faster that they can't even compete with it.

I would like to have the ability to change the cosmetics of the car (body kits, paint, and things to make the cars more personal). I own a couple of the cars that are available in the game and would like to make the in game cars look more like the ones i drive everyday. I know that they cannot make everyone happy by making some changes but more cars in a race, slightly better a.i., and personalization may be a good start.
 
I'm sorry I haven't done this, but I want to say "hello and welcome to GTPlanet" to you, AlloutRX7.

This topic is more about a few issues among most gamers and the media. In response to "DeadlyFred," if playing pretty games rather than pure challenge, then gamers would have loved the slew of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with their cell-shaded animations, even if the media says the games are completely shallow. And I'm talking about the latest TMNT games. In terms of pretty games, I think "X-Play" reviewed the FPS "XIII," with a 3 out of 5 rating of being a pretty game but I think the game had a lot of stealth so it wasn't too interesting. I think an XBOX site even admitted that GT4's visuals were better than Forza's. I think you can be your own judge about Forza's graphics. My only real experience with Forza is demos of it at Wal-Mart stores in Southeast Texas. I haven't done anything like play someone's XBOX and the full version of Forza.

Maybe within the first six months of the next GT's release, I'll closely follow the criticism most gaming media and game players say about the next GT. Again, here are some of the things I've heard from gaming media types:

"...lack of evolution, especially in AI..." (GameSpot), "...no online...in it's place, we get a Photo Mode." (G4 TV show "X-Play"), "[Forza Motorsport is]...better than Gran Turismo 4." (Electronic Gaming Monthly), "...both of these games have their disappointments, but GT4 is better than Enthusia..." (G4 TV show "Judgment Day")

I guess another argument I'd make is, if Gran Turismo is the best racing game we have, then why do some gamers and gaming media just think that while it is the best, it isn't a runaway favorite? I think I've seen more people praise Forza more for a multitude of different things. You know, almost as if it's just another GT game with a formula that never gets old. You know, no innovation, no evolution, just the same old game in a new package. Keep in mind, Forza is perhaps the best GT-type game to actually be a contender ever since Sega GT. What did Forza do for the racing game genre that GT probably hasn't? Since GT games weren't able to convince auto makes to have auto damage or certain other names, was GT's loss someone else's gain? Keep it moving.
 

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