Ok was reading the forum, when I encountered one of the greatest post in this forum. Well done Earth, you deserve a Standing ovation as you OWNED
here the original post made by Earth:
In June 2008 Race Driver: Grid was released in North America. The game featured an instant replay feature, now simply known as rewind, that allows the driver to rewind the race up to 10 seconds. In September 2009 DiRT 2 was released and it incorporated a rewind feature as well.
Forza 3, which will be released this Friday, also features rewind. Forza 3 was the very first "hardcore" simulator to feature rewind. Some who plan on purchasing Forza 3 raised concerns that rewind should not be included in a simulator.
Dan Greenawalt, director of Forza 3, responded, "I am a sim racing gamer as well, and I cant go back to games that dont have it now. When I play other racing games and they dont have this rewind, I just feel like, Are you kidding me? I mean, this is kind of old school."
That means about 99.9% of the racing game and racing simulators that are out there are old school, because only three titles currently have the feature, DiRT 2, Race Car Driver GRID, and Forza 3.
Many racing simulators and racing games have been released since the rewind feature first appeared in Racecar Driver Grid in 2008. Some are set to be released shortly and the developers have not hinted at rewind being featured in the software. These titles include Gran Turismo 5, GTR Evolution, Race On, Need For Speed: Shift, Race Pro, and Volvo: The Game among others.
Obviously, if rewind was such a revolutionary feature that made racing games or simulators that did not feature it feel "old school" certainly more titles would have it. But most don't. This has led many to believe that rewind is gimmicky and a 'fad' feature. If rewind was as revolutionizing as a colored racing line certainly it would have been in more racing games or simulators by now. But it hasn't.
Supporters of rewind say the feature can help those who are hopelessly lost and frustrated when trying to control a car in a racing simulator, and at the same time it can also help more advanced drivers to perfect their racing line or braking points without grinding away at three mile courses just to get a chance to try that problem corner again.
However those who promote rewind only speak of it's possible and usually minimal benefits when discussing the feature. They ignore or downplay any possible negative side effects that may arise when you give drivers the power to rewind time and instantly correct mistakes.
They claim that those who would abuse rewind are only hurting themselves. Therefore, they say, a few bad apples shouldn't spoil it for everyone. If someone wants to play around and never attempt to properly learn how to race it's their money, those who promote rewind say. The feature has too much going for it for it to be spoiled by a few insubordinates who would abuse it. The positive far outweighs the negative they claim.
Is there any facts to back up these claims? Just how much good does rewind really do to help a driver versus the bad? Is the feature as revolutionizing as Dan Greenawalt claims it to be that all racing software that does not have it is old school, out of date and not in touch with reality?
I will attempt to find the answers to this and more in the following.
The following are the keys to being a competent race car driver
Discipline
Rhythm
Wisdom
Preperation
Anticipation
Reaction
Lets start with discipline. What exactly does discipline have to do with being a competent race car driver? A disciplined driver is not easily tempted into over driving his car in order to catch a driver or to fend off a pursing driver. A well disciplined driver is not tempted into over driving corners in order to put up a good qualifying time. Becoming a disciplined driver is accomplished by learning to drive within the limits of your car and your own driving talent. This usually takes many many hours if not years to master.
Does rewind teach discipline? No, it doesn't. In fact a driver who frequently uses rewind has no need to learn discipline.
Rhythm. A quarterback hits 10 straight passes. He is in rhythm. A basketball player makes 10 straight shots. He is in rhythm. How do opposing coaches try to break this rhythm? They call timeout. Rewind destroys any sense of rhythm a driver can ever hope to develop.
A driver who gets into a rhythm can click off laps within a tenth of each other. Those who use rewind ruin any chance they have at developing any sort of rhythm.
Wisdom. The definition of wisdom: "the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight."
Sadly, rewind does not promote nor does it help a driver gain wisdom on the racetrack.
A father is trying to teach his son how to race around a small home made Karting track. His son is making strides but is having trouble keeping it on track. The father grabs a bucket of water and a few seconds before his son comes zooming by he dumps all the water on the track. His son comes by a couple of seconds later, hits the water and spins out. Upset, his son steps out of the kart and runs up to his dad.
"Why did you do that!"
His father replies, "In racing there are no warnings. You prepare, you anticipate, and you react."
You prepare by practicing, either by yourself on an empty track or in a test with other cars. You anticipate anything and you react properly. You can only acquire this trait through many hours if not years of racing in various conditions. There are just far too many situations that may present themselves in motor racing and rewinding them all is not only pointless but will not help you get any better.
Sadly, again rewind does not help a driver with these three keys to racing. It does not help you prepare. It doesn't help you to anticipate and it doesn't help you to react.
Next, does anything from Gran Turismo's past hint that Polyphony Digital president Kazunori Yamauchi might implement rewind in future Gran Turismo titles?
In Gran Turismo 4 there was not an option to restart championship races even though this option is in other simulators. Obviously Kazunori Yamauchi wants a driver to experience a realistic championship were sometimes bad things happens and you don't always win. If this reality was not important to him surely there would be a restart option in Gran Turismo 4.
Nothing suggests Kazunori Yamauchi will implement rewind
Take for example what happened to Lewis Hamilton this year at the Italian Grand Prix. He was running 3rd with just a lap to go but made a slight error that ended up with his car in the guardrails, his day finished.
If this happened to someone in a simulator that featured rewind would they rewind? Most likely.
But lets think about what rewinding this moment means.
Would finishing on the podium be as satisfying if the driver completed the entire race without the use of rewind? Would the thrill of victory really be as great and rewarding as it could be if the driver rewinded errors during the race?
Before we anoint rewind the next great assist in driving sims lets think about the negatives and repercussions and not just the few positives.
Those who promote rewind say it can help walk new drivers through racing until they get better and dont need rewind anymore.
This is laughable because even the best drivers make mistakes and would like to rewind their mistakes. Mistakes are part of life and the threat that they loom and may ruin your race helps make a better driver then rewind which lets a driver race with no discipline or the need to anticipate a possible situation on the track.
The best way to learn how to not make a mistake in a driving simulator is to practice practice practice, learn the limits of your car and your own driving, because your going to make alot and I mean alot of different individual mistakes and the best way to fix these is not to rewind but to learn how to avoid them all together.
The question people who make mistakes should be asking themselves is why did I make the mistake in the first place?
If they ran into a car going into a corner they may just say "I braked too late." and then they rewind, and brake earlier.
Was braking too late the only mistake? Thats what rewind teaches them. The truth is he most likely was also over aggressive. He was probably careless too by getting into the corner so deep, risking contact and damage. But rewind teaches him that he just braked too late. Now that he can instantly rewind and just brake a little earlier he does not learn patience nor is he punished. He faces no consequences.
As a learning tool rewind is about as helpful as training wheels on a bicycle. Lets get past the kiddie stage and get into big boy racing. No baby-sitting here. Kazunori Yamauchi thinks differently then Dan Greenawalt. Greenawalt designs his games so that people who have no real interest in learning how to drive the cars properly can still find some enjoyment in Forza.
Dan Greenawalt appears more interested in Forza being trendy and on top of the latest fads then what's best for the development of drivers.
Reasons why drivers make mistakes:
- Driver is not familiar with a course
- Driver is not familiar with overtaking opportunities on a scourse
- Driver is not familiar with the limits of his car
- Driver does not display discipline and knowingly over drives car or tries a risky move
How do you try and fix these mistakes? Practice.
Those who promote rewind say fix them by rewinding. The problem is there are millions and millions of situations that may present themselves and rewinding them all will simply not fix the problem. A new driver will eventually stop using rewind because he will find out that he keeps making mistakes because he simply does not know why he makes them.
There are thousands if not millions of ways to crash on your own or into another car. Rewinding one crash and you'll end up just crashing slightly differently the next time.
The key is to teach yourself discipline and to practice the course and understand the limits of your car and those around you whether they be AI or real people.
In short, there are too many ways a driver can make a mistake and too many variables in order for rewind to be as effective as those who promote it say it is.
If a driver does not understand why he made the mistake rewinding will never ever help him get better. It's not as simple as saying "I just braked too late". It is rarely if ever that simple.
I can remember a demo of Dan Greenawalt racing at Lemans in Forza 3. He made a mistake, and then decided to rewind. He let the game play out. He crashed again.
Oops.
So he rewinded again.
This time he made the corner but made heavy contact with other cars and went off course a bit.
How much did he really learn by rewinding? Little if anything.
Gran Turismo already has a very fine tuned system for helping new drivers get onto their feet. It's called the license system. This system covers everything from the extreme basics such as starting and stopping to advanced driving techniques like drafting and overtaking.
Lets look at possible uses of rewind
- Someone brakes too late in a corner, misses it. They rewind
- Solution already in GT: colored racing line that tells you when to brake
- Someone wants to practice a turn or section of the track without running the entire track so they use rewind
- Solution already in GT: None. But a sector trainer as seen in GTR2 would be a better solution here as it is more precise and less cumbersome then rewind and gives you better feedback, including your time through a sector.
- Someone trys to pass an AI car and crashes so they rewind
- Solution already in GT: Many license tests and challenges that ask you to pass cars cleanly
THE POINT
Gran Turismo is a simulator
If your not willing to learn how to race properly and you want rewind to baby-sit you through the experience then Gran Turismo is not for you.
Gran Turismo already has MORE THEN ENOUGH assists to help you get better at car racing. A gimmicky feature like rewind is not needed.
Rewind is really saying "screw trying to learn how to do it right, with rewind there is no need to practice or try to hone your skills, you can jump in and go racing without having to worry about the consequences."
Is that what Gran Turismo should be saying to casuals and first time racers?
Learning from your mistakes is part of life. Giving a new driver the ability to instantly correct mistakes does not teach them good driving habits for the long run.
If a driver has the ability to instantly rewind any mistake he makes will he be more cautious the next time he comes up on a similiar situation? Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing is for sure, in the back of his mind he knows he has rewind to back him up so he can be wreckless if he wishes.
Reminds me of a NASCAR 2003 race a few years back. About two dozen drivers, including me, got together one night to run a 400 mile race at Daytona. Fearing that a large crash could ruin the long race for everyone the boss turned damage off.
The result?
Drivers became wreckless. They kept trying stupid moves that they would never normally try if they knew their cars could get damage.
The same will happen with rewind. No consequences does not encourage better driving.
here the original post made by Earth:
In June 2008 Race Driver: Grid was released in North America. The game featured an instant replay feature, now simply known as rewind, that allows the driver to rewind the race up to 10 seconds. In September 2009 DiRT 2 was released and it incorporated a rewind feature as well.
Forza 3, which will be released this Friday, also features rewind. Forza 3 was the very first "hardcore" simulator to feature rewind. Some who plan on purchasing Forza 3 raised concerns that rewind should not be included in a simulator.
Dan Greenawalt, director of Forza 3, responded, "I am a sim racing gamer as well, and I cant go back to games that dont have it now. When I play other racing games and they dont have this rewind, I just feel like, Are you kidding me? I mean, this is kind of old school."
That means about 99.9% of the racing game and racing simulators that are out there are old school, because only three titles currently have the feature, DiRT 2, Race Car Driver GRID, and Forza 3.
Many racing simulators and racing games have been released since the rewind feature first appeared in Racecar Driver Grid in 2008. Some are set to be released shortly and the developers have not hinted at rewind being featured in the software. These titles include Gran Turismo 5, GTR Evolution, Race On, Need For Speed: Shift, Race Pro, and Volvo: The Game among others.
Obviously, if rewind was such a revolutionary feature that made racing games or simulators that did not feature it feel "old school" certainly more titles would have it. But most don't. This has led many to believe that rewind is gimmicky and a 'fad' feature. If rewind was as revolutionizing as a colored racing line certainly it would have been in more racing games or simulators by now. But it hasn't.
Supporters of rewind say the feature can help those who are hopelessly lost and frustrated when trying to control a car in a racing simulator, and at the same time it can also help more advanced drivers to perfect their racing line or braking points without grinding away at three mile courses just to get a chance to try that problem corner again.
However those who promote rewind only speak of it's possible and usually minimal benefits when discussing the feature. They ignore or downplay any possible negative side effects that may arise when you give drivers the power to rewind time and instantly correct mistakes.
They claim that those who would abuse rewind are only hurting themselves. Therefore, they say, a few bad apples shouldn't spoil it for everyone. If someone wants to play around and never attempt to properly learn how to race it's their money, those who promote rewind say. The feature has too much going for it for it to be spoiled by a few insubordinates who would abuse it. The positive far outweighs the negative they claim.
Is there any facts to back up these claims? Just how much good does rewind really do to help a driver versus the bad? Is the feature as revolutionizing as Dan Greenawalt claims it to be that all racing software that does not have it is old school, out of date and not in touch with reality?
I will attempt to find the answers to this and more in the following.
The following are the keys to being a competent race car driver
Discipline
Rhythm
Wisdom
Preperation
Anticipation
Reaction
Lets start with discipline. What exactly does discipline have to do with being a competent race car driver? A disciplined driver is not easily tempted into over driving his car in order to catch a driver or to fend off a pursing driver. A well disciplined driver is not tempted into over driving corners in order to put up a good qualifying time. Becoming a disciplined driver is accomplished by learning to drive within the limits of your car and your own driving talent. This usually takes many many hours if not years to master.
Does rewind teach discipline? No, it doesn't. In fact a driver who frequently uses rewind has no need to learn discipline.
Rhythm. A quarterback hits 10 straight passes. He is in rhythm. A basketball player makes 10 straight shots. He is in rhythm. How do opposing coaches try to break this rhythm? They call timeout. Rewind destroys any sense of rhythm a driver can ever hope to develop.
A driver who gets into a rhythm can click off laps within a tenth of each other. Those who use rewind ruin any chance they have at developing any sort of rhythm.
Wisdom. The definition of wisdom: "the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight."
Sadly, rewind does not promote nor does it help a driver gain wisdom on the racetrack.
A father is trying to teach his son how to race around a small home made Karting track. His son is making strides but is having trouble keeping it on track. The father grabs a bucket of water and a few seconds before his son comes zooming by he dumps all the water on the track. His son comes by a couple of seconds later, hits the water and spins out. Upset, his son steps out of the kart and runs up to his dad.
"Why did you do that!"
His father replies, "In racing there are no warnings. You prepare, you anticipate, and you react."
You prepare by practicing, either by yourself on an empty track or in a test with other cars. You anticipate anything and you react properly. You can only acquire this trait through many hours if not years of racing in various conditions. There are just far too many situations that may present themselves in motor racing and rewinding them all is not only pointless but will not help you get any better.
Sadly, again rewind does not help a driver with these three keys to racing. It does not help you prepare. It doesn't help you to anticipate and it doesn't help you to react.
Next, does anything from Gran Turismo's past hint that Polyphony Digital president Kazunori Yamauchi might implement rewind in future Gran Turismo titles?
In Gran Turismo 4 there was not an option to restart championship races even though this option is in other simulators. Obviously Kazunori Yamauchi wants a driver to experience a realistic championship were sometimes bad things happens and you don't always win. If this reality was not important to him surely there would be a restart option in Gran Turismo 4.
Nothing suggests Kazunori Yamauchi will implement rewind
Take for example what happened to Lewis Hamilton this year at the Italian Grand Prix. He was running 3rd with just a lap to go but made a slight error that ended up with his car in the guardrails, his day finished.
If this happened to someone in a simulator that featured rewind would they rewind? Most likely.
But lets think about what rewinding this moment means.
Would finishing on the podium be as satisfying if the driver completed the entire race without the use of rewind? Would the thrill of victory really be as great and rewarding as it could be if the driver rewinded errors during the race?
Before we anoint rewind the next great assist in driving sims lets think about the negatives and repercussions and not just the few positives.
Those who promote rewind say it can help walk new drivers through racing until they get better and dont need rewind anymore.
This is laughable because even the best drivers make mistakes and would like to rewind their mistakes. Mistakes are part of life and the threat that they loom and may ruin your race helps make a better driver then rewind which lets a driver race with no discipline or the need to anticipate a possible situation on the track.
The best way to learn how to not make a mistake in a driving simulator is to practice practice practice, learn the limits of your car and your own driving, because your going to make alot and I mean alot of different individual mistakes and the best way to fix these is not to rewind but to learn how to avoid them all together.
The question people who make mistakes should be asking themselves is why did I make the mistake in the first place?
If they ran into a car going into a corner they may just say "I braked too late." and then they rewind, and brake earlier.
Was braking too late the only mistake? Thats what rewind teaches them. The truth is he most likely was also over aggressive. He was probably careless too by getting into the corner so deep, risking contact and damage. But rewind teaches him that he just braked too late. Now that he can instantly rewind and just brake a little earlier he does not learn patience nor is he punished. He faces no consequences.
As a learning tool rewind is about as helpful as training wheels on a bicycle. Lets get past the kiddie stage and get into big boy racing. No baby-sitting here. Kazunori Yamauchi thinks differently then Dan Greenawalt. Greenawalt designs his games so that people who have no real interest in learning how to drive the cars properly can still find some enjoyment in Forza.
Dan Greenawalt appears more interested in Forza being trendy and on top of the latest fads then what's best for the development of drivers.
Reasons why drivers make mistakes:
- Driver is not familiar with a course
- Driver is not familiar with overtaking opportunities on a scourse
- Driver is not familiar with the limits of his car
- Driver does not display discipline and knowingly over drives car or tries a risky move
How do you try and fix these mistakes? Practice.
Those who promote rewind say fix them by rewinding. The problem is there are millions and millions of situations that may present themselves and rewinding them all will simply not fix the problem. A new driver will eventually stop using rewind because he will find out that he keeps making mistakes because he simply does not know why he makes them.
There are thousands if not millions of ways to crash on your own or into another car. Rewinding one crash and you'll end up just crashing slightly differently the next time.
The key is to teach yourself discipline and to practice the course and understand the limits of your car and those around you whether they be AI or real people.
In short, there are too many ways a driver can make a mistake and too many variables in order for rewind to be as effective as those who promote it say it is.
If a driver does not understand why he made the mistake rewinding will never ever help him get better. It's not as simple as saying "I just braked too late". It is rarely if ever that simple.
I can remember a demo of Dan Greenawalt racing at Lemans in Forza 3. He made a mistake, and then decided to rewind. He let the game play out. He crashed again.
Oops.
So he rewinded again.
This time he made the corner but made heavy contact with other cars and went off course a bit.
How much did he really learn by rewinding? Little if anything.
Gran Turismo already has a very fine tuned system for helping new drivers get onto their feet. It's called the license system. This system covers everything from the extreme basics such as starting and stopping to advanced driving techniques like drafting and overtaking.
Lets look at possible uses of rewind
- Someone brakes too late in a corner, misses it. They rewind
- Solution already in GT: colored racing line that tells you when to brake
- Someone wants to practice a turn or section of the track without running the entire track so they use rewind
- Solution already in GT: None. But a sector trainer as seen in GTR2 would be a better solution here as it is more precise and less cumbersome then rewind and gives you better feedback, including your time through a sector.
- Someone trys to pass an AI car and crashes so they rewind
- Solution already in GT: Many license tests and challenges that ask you to pass cars cleanly
THE POINT
Gran Turismo is a simulator
If your not willing to learn how to race properly and you want rewind to baby-sit you through the experience then Gran Turismo is not for you.
Gran Turismo already has MORE THEN ENOUGH assists to help you get better at car racing. A gimmicky feature like rewind is not needed.
Rewind is really saying "screw trying to learn how to do it right, with rewind there is no need to practice or try to hone your skills, you can jump in and go racing without having to worry about the consequences."
Is that what Gran Turismo should be saying to casuals and first time racers?
Learning from your mistakes is part of life. Giving a new driver the ability to instantly correct mistakes does not teach them good driving habits for the long run.
If a driver has the ability to instantly rewind any mistake he makes will he be more cautious the next time he comes up on a similiar situation? Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing is for sure, in the back of his mind he knows he has rewind to back him up so he can be wreckless if he wishes.
Reminds me of a NASCAR 2003 race a few years back. About two dozen drivers, including me, got together one night to run a 400 mile race at Daytona. Fearing that a large crash could ruin the long race for everyone the boss turned damage off.
The result?
Drivers became wreckless. They kept trying stupid moves that they would never normally try if they knew their cars could get damage.
The same will happen with rewind. No consequences does not encourage better driving.
