Steering delay - DS2 vs DFP etc.

  • Thread starter Jimjams
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Jimjams

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If you select the external view of the car and also the front-on view (L1), you can see a time lag between moving the DS2 stick and the wheels arriving at the set position. e.g. If you snap the stick over to full lock, it takes approx. 0.5sec for the wheels to get to that position. Hence, if you did that, and then immediately snapped the stick to the opposite lock, then at that moment, the wheels and their requested position would be in 100% disagreement. This 'wheel position as a function of time' syndrome creates confusion. And although I've achieved all 'Golds' on all licenses, I found it necessary to constantly talk to myself saying: "turn too early" in order to compensate for this delay which, is most noticeable, obviously, on tight bends.

Does the Logitec Driving Force Pro (this is the best?) solve this problem i.e. if you abruptly turn the steering wheel by say 90˚, do the wheels get to the 'requested position' to all intents and purposes at the same time as the steering wheel?
 
I think the DS2 delay has something to do with realism. I believe it tries to simulate the time you need to turn the wheel to that position in real life. Due to the same reason, DFP does not have that delay as the time is taken during turning the wheel.

This is only my opinion, not official information. :)
 
I wondered if that was the reason or whether it took that long to number crunch the change of scenery. Thing is, a 90˚ turn of the steering wheel could be executed almost instantaneously, but the wheels still arrive noticeably late with the DS2 for the equivilant amout of turn...
 
Turning the wheel 90 degrees is less than it sounds. You have to remember lock to lock is 1080 degrees on most cars. 90 degrees on wheel is only a millimeter or two on DS2.
 
Ever driven a car? :P You can't go lock to lock in an instant. If you did you'd lose control anyway. Greycap is right, the time it takes to turn the steering wheel is the time it takes to turn the car's wheels. I think if the DS2 changed any quicker it'd be far too twitchy.
 
Yeah, with the controller, there is automatically a steering aid on (which smooths the inputs to make driving with the controller less difficult), which can be turned off with the DFP. This does then allow you instant control of the direction of the front wheels. I can't say I've ever noticed any lag or anything when using the DFP.
 
Go play pretty much any PC sim with an analog gamepad, without any steering assists, and then tell me you'd like to see that be implemented into GT4....

Instant 100% lock = Instant understeer

or,

Instant visual 100% lock + No resulting understeer = Need for Speed or something similar
 
The DS2's lag time is different with the D-pad compared to the stick too.
 
also, if you went from lock to lock in a car going as fast as you do in GT4, then your car either refuse to turn until the wheels are pointing in the same direction as the car is travelling, or if the car was small and light, then it might even go on two wheels from the sudden change in direction... I think :lol:
 
Many old driving games would give full lock on a digital joypad, these were the games where you would be constantly tapping the D-pad to take a corner.

Some lag is clearly needed in a more accurate sim such as GT4, however I do wish there was an option for players to set the delay time (read sensitivity) ourselves, from 0 (instant full lock) to 1.0 (full second) at 0.1 increments.

I use the Dual Shock D-Pad for steering and I think it's fairly well balanced, however there are times when I wish it would respond to changes of direction sooner (as seperate from the car's handling characteristics).

Sometimes I do use the DS2's analog sticks, however I find they have too much play in them for my liking in most situations - I tend to over compensate and end up fish-tailing.
 
OK, point taken about time to get to full lock; what was I thinking(?)! - I think I just chose that as a definable point to make my point - but it didn't. Forget about full lock that's not really the issue.

It's the time it takes to get the wheels to turn a smaller distance in normal cornering. If you try this (I've just done it in an MX-5 where you can see the wheel turn and the driver changing hands - very quick - bless his little heart): looking at the car head on in the external view, and move the stick as fast as you can to produce around 90˚ of movement of the steering wheel. The driver turns the wheel at nowhere near the speed a racing driver can for that kind of movement.

Secondly, there's a discernible delay (presumably for number crunching) before anything happens at all. Trust me, I'm a drummer; I can feel a delay like a bad smell. This delay equates to a lot of yardage at high speed.

Is everyone saying they've never sensed a delay before the car responds to adjustments in normal cornering?? To me, it's as though nothing's really happening in real-time. I head for a corner, and have to make a judgement based on past experience how much to turn the wheel and just do it with the hope that the wheels will get to the right place at the right time. This "realization" that nothing responds in time and small adjustments are usually too late, enabled me to get at least 3 'Golds' on every license and do all the driving challenges. Otherwise, I don't know how I'd have done it.

If it's number crunching, the DFP won't help with the initial delay. I suppose if the DFP provides enough resistance to restrict you to the speed the steering can respond to, it would at least solve the problem of having the stick in one position and the wheels....er...anywhere!

Flame proof underwear on....
 
I think GT4's cars respond too quickly already. Yeah, sure, you can turn the steering wheel as fast as you want, but your front wheels and tires have to do a lot more work than you do; namely, taking a 2000+ lb. object and changing its trajectory, going against its inertia.

If you ever tried to pick up and swing a 2000 lb. baseball bat, you'd know what the car is going through. :lol:

That said, GT4 actually does a terrible job at getting this right. The guy inside the cockpit may look like he's going too slow, but if you look at the front wheels alone, they're going really fast. Also, with the DFP (which I finally just got, recently) the steering is too sensitive, as in, you don't need to turn the wheel as much as you would in real life. Then, GT4 simulates the inertia of the car incorrectly, not giving it enough credit.

So what you end up with is a twitchy, over-sensitive mess of a steering model... :odd:
 
Wolfe2x7
Also, with the DFP (which I finally just got, recently) the steering is too sensitive, as in, you don't need to turn the wheel as much as you would in real life. Then, GT4 simulates the inertia of the car incorrectly, not giving it enough credit.

So what you end up with is a twitchy, over-sensitive mess of a steering model... :odd:
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Actually, I disagree with that. Steering any racecar (or roadcar for that matter) on a racing circuit will not require a great deal of steering lock to effect a turn. The greatest steering effect will be felt in the first 90 degrees of lock, anything more than that will only be really useful in the tightest, slowest corners. I feel GT4 is pretty accurate in simulating that non-linear response.

Even World Rally drivers, admittedly with slightly faster steering racks, rarely use more than 180 degrees of lock. This is despite the vast array of corners they come across.
 
actually most wrc cars use 540° steering. older ones before 1999 used 720.

I drove an evo 8 IRL and if i remember correctly it has a tiny bit less steering lock than the DFP. but i dunno what mods the owner has made to it.

I just wish the linearity was adjustable. in gt4.
 
Small_Fryz
Care to backup and or explain?

Which is quicker slower?
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Switch to chase view. Switch to reverse chase view. Mash the D-pad to the left. Do nothing. Mash the stick to the left.

D-pad is slower to respond and the wheels actually have a smaller angle at maximum than with the analogue stick.
 
I reckon they've got it about right. The only other game for the PS2 that I've played (no flames, please..) that has the same linearity of response is NFSU2.

And I've noted that about racing in real-life. It's like racing with the DFP. You see-saw a lot, but you rarely get the wheel turned more than 90 degrees in either direction. You only really see full-lock on hairpins. If the steering were any faster, it would be disastrously quick.

As per Famine's post, the extra delay and lower lock built into the D-Pad control vs. the Analog stick make it easier to drive in some situations. It would be really nice if they did allow you to customize the sticks like you can the steering wheel.
 
VTRacing
Actually, I disagree with that. Steering any racecar (or roadcar for that matter) on a racing circuit will not require a great deal of steering lock to effect a turn. The greatest steering effect will be felt in the first 90 degrees of lock, anything more than that will only be really useful in the tightest, slowest corners. I feel GT4 is pretty accurate in simulating that non-linear response.

Even World Rally drivers, admittedly with slightly faster steering racks, rarely use more than 180 degrees of lock. This is despite the vast array of corners they come across.
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You're right about racecars on race circuits not needing a whole lot of steering lock, and that Rally drivers don't use much lock at all. However, the flaw came about towards the end of your first paragraph, where you mentioned non-linear response.

To the best of my knowledge, all cars have linear steering, unless they have some sort of purely electric setup, with non-linearity added in. Non-linear steering response in racing games/sims is typically added when you have a wheel that doesn't turn 900 degrees like the DFP, to decrease sensitivity around the center position, and to then increase sensitivity around the full-lock left and right positions. This helps keep straight-line driving and initial corner entry easy and predictable, yet allows just as much lock at full-lock that you can still make it around sharper corners. Live for Speed allows you to adjust this; in the controls menu it is referred to as "center steer reduction."

Now, I've spent some more time with the DFP on GT4, and the steering response isn't as bad as I initially thought, but anything that has to do with loss-of-traction physics is still off (this has to do with the game's physics, not the controller involved), and I was amazed to find that the DFP doesn't tell me anything about the car. The DFP will shake and judder over bumps, and fight corner entry (too strongly, on the default FF setting), but it doesn't tell me anything about any understeer I'm experiencing, it doesn't assist in countersteering, and hills and banking seem to not exist, as far as the wheel is concerned...
 
Wolfe2x7
To the best of my knowledge, all cars have linear steering, unless they have some sort of purely electric setup, with non-linearity added in.
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Not quite right, while the majority of cars do have linear steering ratios, its not just electric power steering systems that have variable ratios.

Some rack and pinion systems have a basic form of variable-ratio steering, simply by having a different tooth pitch (number of teeth per inch) in the centre than they have at the outsides.

Gives you quicker steering ratios when starting a turn, but tends to be a real pain at speed, when the steering can get just a bit too quick.

I must be honest I'm not personally a big fan of electric or mechanical variable-ratio systems, as they tend to rob you of steering feel (but that could be said for electric power assistance).

What also needs to be remembered is that as a cars speed increases, even with a linear rack, the amount of steering input required to turn reduces and I believe its this effect that was being refered to.

Regards

Scaff
 
I know this is a bit off topic, but it has been brought up in this thread....I think the DFP is about right, sensitivity wise. Initially I thought it was too sensitive, but I got thinking:

1) Fast corners on a track really aren't that tight, and really don't require much steering input, kind of like driving on a motorway. There is hardly ever any visible steering input when driving on a motorway, more just a bit of pressure to turn. I think that kind of thing is also true on slight turns in GT4, you really don't need to turn the wheel much at all.
2) The DFP is a really small diameter! It is about 25cm compared to 37cm for my Miata. So, doing a little math, I would have to push only about 75% the distance (along the circumference of the wheel) with the DFP as with my wheel to turn the same angle. I hope that makes sense!
3) Some of the cars we are driving in GT4 have more sensitive steering than the cars we are used to driving in real life.

This is just my experience, yours may differ.... :) I definitely think a larger diameter wheel would make a big difference on quick turns.

For the DS2, I think they have got the steering speed about right, I wouldn't want it much faster than that if I was still interesting in keeping control of the car. Being able to adjust the DFP and DS2 would be nice though, as mentioned already...
 
I want to buy a DFP, but I'm still suspicious that the (excessive) FF that many have complained about is really just to disguise the wheels not being able to turn as fast as they should do; watching F1 or rally drivers on TV, they're able to abruptly turn the steering wheel to 90˚ almost instantly and with no obvious effort.

Can any DFP owners confirm that if you turn the FF down (off?) that the wheels will still keep up with the steering wheel no matter how fast you turn the it?
 
Jimjams
I want to buy a DFP, but I'm still suspicious that the (excessive) FF that many have complained about is really just to disguise the wheels not being able to turn as fast as they should do; watching F1 or rally drivers on TV, they're able to abruptly turn the steering wheel to 90˚ almost instantly and with no obvious effort.

Can any DFP owners confirm that if you turn the FF down (off?) that the wheels will still keep up with the steering wheel no matter how fast you turn the it?
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You can't turn the FF off completely, but you can reduce it so it's a bit better. With it at the lower level, it's still providing more resistance than most regular road cars with power steering, but it's acceptable at least. The extra resistance does give you fairly good feedback, which might be an attempt to help make up for the lack of g-forces in a racing game. Usually I don't have a problem with the resistance, but it is still tough to move the wheel very quickly, as you mention. 99% of the time it's not a problem, but now and then it can be a bit frustrating. However, certainly not enough of a problem to not get the DFP, I'd say.

The wheels are keeping up with the steering, but it is hard to move it very quickly due to the resistance.
 
Ok, thanks michaeldenham. Thing is, unless anyone knows of another wheel with less FF *and where you can see the wheels keeping up in the external view* then I'm still suspecting that the game can't crunch the numbers fast enough to handle anything close to real-time response. Surely that's a more plausible explanation for the DFP's heaviness than the game designers actually thinking this amount of FF reflects reality? Anytime you see racing drivers, they're making a lot of fast adjustments and the steering doesn't look heavy.

Either way, I suppose you're better off feeling directly through the DFP how long it takes for the wheels to turn - you can adjust to it with experience - than ineffectually whacking the DS2 stick about willy nilly. It just doesn't provide that reality of making quick responses and adjustments as things happen. This might explain why Tiff Needell was beaten by the game designer, who could have been driving very accurately, while Tiff was thinking he could react naturally to what he saw on the screen as it was happening.

I actually found the final Driving Mission (Nurb) reasonably easy after all the licenses. But I bet if I tried any license now I'd fail to get gold first time because it'd take *at least* one go to re-learn how and when to turn for each bend; by the time the information's on the screen it's too late to make the adjustments you see racers making as they go around a bend.

B-g--r! I think I'll have to get a DFP just to satisfy my curiosity...

:)
 
Indeed, the DFP fights too much, but IIRC, if you can live without the feedback, unplugging the power cord should allow you to spin the wheel almost as fast as you want...
 
Wolfe2x7
Indeed, the DFP fights too much, but IIRC, if you can live without the feedback, unplugging the power cord should allow you to spin the wheel almost as fast as you want...
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But do the wheels keep up? Otherwise they could be pointing anywhere, and you've got the same problem as with the DS2 stick.
 
Jimjams
But do the wheels keep up? Otherwise they could be pointing anywhere, and you've got the same problem as with the DS2 stick.
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I did a test on this, slowly rolling, going from left to right, and it seemed the wheels didn't quite keep up at times. I was turning right and the car was still turning left, just for a very short moment. So, it's not perfect. However, I had not noticed this before, and I am happy with how the cars respond, and I never feel like the car is delayed in steering when I'm driving. This might partly be because I only drive stock road cars on road tyres, and the steering inputs aren't all that quick anyway. The problem MAY be noticable with racing cars, but I don't know. When getting sideways in something like a RUF at the Ring, you occasionally have to use some quick steering to keep it in check, and the steering does have to be quick, and the car does respond as I would expect. I really didn't even know this was an issue until I read about it here and tested, so it really doesn't affect my game at all. Not once have I had a problem steering and thought, damn, stupid PS2 not keeping up with my DFP! :) However, I can see the weight of the FF (and slight delay in steering) might be a problem in something like an F1 car.

Edit: I called it a steering delay here, but it's not really. When you turn the wheel, the wheels turn, right away, no delay. It is just when you turn very quickly that the wheels in the game do not QUITE keep up with the DFP.

I reckon you should just buy a DFP, give it a go, don't test it for any problems, and see if you have any issues with it. If so, return it!
 

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