Stig Lap Comparison-are the tires too sticky?

[Voodoovaj]

So, we were watching some Top Gear, specifically Season 10, Episode 10. This is when they went to Ascari. The Stig did a standing start 2:38.9 lap with the M3. (if you go looking, it's near the end of the episode).

So, I decide to see what it would take to match that in the game. I grabbed the '07 M3 and went at it.

I got a 2:38.2, flying lap. In order to get down to real world Stig level times, I had to put Comfort Hard on the car.

Now, although the car was a bit nervous, it was no more so than it was in the episode. This leads me to wonder, should they change the tires back to when they had the "real" options back in the PS1 days? Or maybe some other naming convention?

I did a similar test tossing sports tires on the race cars and it seems like the grip difference from the game tires to their real world counterparts is about 3 steps (so an actual RS would be an SS in the game). All the race tires are essentially fiction.

Do you think the game sales would suffer? Do you think folks would just figure it out?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think PD's approach is just to give you a range of tire options from very hard to very soft and let you decide what you want to do with them. I don't see that changing, nor do I think it needs to change, so long as all the options are there. GT is more of a "make it what you will" series now, as opposed to "here's the right way, now adapt".

I wouldn't mind seeing a "hardcore mode" and it's been mentioned already by Kaz if I'm not mistaken, where you have a much more comprehensive approach to the tire model, giving us the ability to alter pressures, meaningful and working camber adjustments that affect grip and heat levels in the carcass, optimal temperature ranges for maximum grip, temperatures across the carcass etc. but in order not to scare off the casual base it would have to be smartly implemented into the game. It would only appeal to a small percentage of players, but that rabid fanbase is the most active on the forums, and the best ambassadors for the game in the gaming world. Get them excited and engaged in the game and they carry a lot of influence in the gaming community, and that kind of excitement is contagious.

 

[TT92]

GT is more of a "make it what you will" series now, as opposed to "here's the right way, now adapt".
.

Ahhhhhhhh! So it's now the "Make it what you will, almost Real Driving Simulator" game?

For the record, I do agree that PD's SS tyres are what real slicks are and all the race tyres are pure fiction. Maybe the RH are what a two lap qualifying tyre might be.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Ahhhhhhhh! So it's now the "Make it what you will, almost Real Driving Simulator" game?

For the record, I do agree that PD's SS tyres are what real slicks are and all the race tyres are pure fiction. Maybe the RH are what a two lap qualifying tyre might be.

I agree that having a broad choice makes for the best range of options. However, I have heard far too many times that hosts are using racing tires because "we're racing on race tracks". In other words, the tire name says "racing" ergo, it's a racing tire.

I'd rather see a name change across the board.

Comfort - > Street
Sport - > Sport/Racing
Racing - > Arcade

Frankly, I am firm believer thst the racing tires are over the top on grip. RS being the worst, most imbalanced experience. Giving those tires the "arcade" tag will greatly reduce their use, if only through embarrassment.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Once you've used Comfort Hard exclusively for weeks or months, anything more than SH seems like a fictional joke.

Most cars that are tested in real life can be matched on CH or CM in GT6. CS will destroy all real-life times.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I agree that having a broad choice makes for the best range of options. However, I have heard far too many times that hosts are using racing tires because "we're racing on race tracks". In other words, the tire name says "racing" ergo, it's a racing tire.

I'd rather see a name change across the board.

Comfort - > Street
Sport - > Sport/Racing
Racing - > Arcade

Frankly, I am firm believer thst the racing tires are over the top on grip. RS being the worst, most imbalanced experience. Giving those tires the "arcade" tag will greatly reduce their use, if only through embarrassment.

What would PD's reason for shaming millions of customers into a different tire choice? I mean how would that help their bottom line? When given a free choice, most people choose racing tires, I don't see how PD benefits by customers choosing lower grade tires and having a less enjoyable, for them, experience.

 

[JR98]

I think there should be a Factory Compound available, that would give the most realistic grip of that car.

 

[cjr3559]

Once you've used Comfort Hard exclusively for weeks or months, anything more than SH seems like a fictional joke.

Most cars that are tested in real life can be matched on CH or CM in GT6. CS will destroy all real-life times.

I agree with this. My only issue with using comfort tires on high powered cars is the constant tire slipping noise when going full throttle on a straight. Not sure this would occur in real life.

I would also like to know how PD determines the default tires when purchasing a car. Some seem ok (to me) but other seem like overkill. For example, SH on the Miura basically turns it into a flying carpet. Comfort tires give it the impression of dangerous driving on the edge (which I like ).

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Once you've used Comfort Hard exclusively for weeks or months, anything more than SH seems like a fictional joke.

Most cars that are tested in real life can be matched on CH or CM in GT6. CS will destroy all real-life times.

Nope, CS to SM/SS tire still needed on some cars ( supercars, race cars and tuned cars ), make sure get the specs ( weight, distribution, power + gearing ) right before trying to find which tire replicate real life grip of stock factory road tires. Driving pace also very important, an alien pace driving can beat real life time on lower grip tire, but if you have real life inboard video and compare it to the GT6 alien lap, it won't look the same.

From my experience building JGTC / Super GT replica, Racing Hard or Medium might still be necessary to replicate real life lap record, the Daisuke Ito record at Suzuka for example, 1:49s with ARTA NSX in 2007.

Aventador LP700-4 at Laguna Seca, MotorTrend Best Drivers Car, 1:35.40s by Randy Pobst, with my replica ( corrections/fixes ) will be with comfort soft and no fuel weight ( the actual tested weight not possible at over 1800+kg ), GT6 adds fuel anyway at 100L.

RUF CTR Yellowbird is another example, a replica ( corrected weight, distribution and gearing ) can replicate real life record at Tsukuba, 1:06.1xs on Comfort Medium.

 

[ryzno]

This is when they went to Ascari. The Stig did a standing start 2:38.9 lap with the M3. (if you go looking, it's near the end of the episode).

So, I decide to see what it would take to match that in the game. I grabbed the '07 M3 and went at it.

I got a 2:38.2, flying lap.

I dont know if I missed something.
So I bolded a few key lines, standing start and flying lap.

First question is is did you do a standing start or did you do a hot lap?

I honestly don't see how there is a fault if you can achieve a real time.

 

[TT92]

I agree that having a broad choice makes for the best range of options. However, I have heard far too many times that hosts are using racing tires because "we're racing on race tracks". In other words, the tire name says "racing" ergo, it's a racing tire.

I'd rather see a name change across the board.

Comfort - > Street
Sport - > Sport/Racing
Racing - > Arcade

Frankly, I am firm believer thst the racing tires are over the top on grip. RS being the worst, most imbalanced experience. Giving those tires the "arcade" tag will greatly reduce their use, if only through embarrassment.

That is one of the most sensible things I have seen posted on this forum. Well done with the tyre grading formula and I wholeheartedly support the idea.

The battle would be to convince the majority of players though as I have had this very same argument with a lot of people for years :-( Why oh why do so many people over tyre just about everything. I have even seen people in this very forum complain that their stock 450PP car always rolls over when using RS tyres. Well duh!

Voodoovaj 10/10 for an excellent idea :-)

 

[GT_Alex74]

On comfort softs, you're already in-between very-high class road sports tyres and semi slicks such as the AD08R. Race hards are concievable for top-end race cars, but anything above seems to come straight out of Ridge Racer.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Edit: wrong forum post (how often does this happen?)

 

[Johnnypenso]

One of the downsides of console racing games is the generic approach to tires in the game. There's no way that a 246GT or or 365GTB or any other older car, should be able to keep up on a track against a modern car. IMO it ruins the simulation to put a modern tire compound on older cars. I wouldn't want to take that option away from anyone, I know it's fun and all but for me it ruins the "simulation" aspect of the game. One thing I'd like to see is a second set of tires that are era specific. Perhaps narrow it down to 10 year periods, so a 60's tire, a 70's tire etc. They would be harder, wear longer, have a greater slip angle, less grip all around etc. If every car could have both the generic tire model and then the era specific tire model, I think it would add a new element to the game for us hardcore players.

 

[eran0004]

The wind resistance is also too low, so the difference between the Stig lap and the GT6 lap is not all because of the tyres.

 

[GT_Alex74]

One of the downsides of console racing games is the generic approach to tires in the game. There's no way that a 246GT or or 365GTB or any other older car, should be able to keep up on a track against a modern car. IMO it ruins the simulation to put a modern tire compound on older cars. I wouldn't want to take that option away from anyone, I know it's fun and all but for me it ruins the "simulation" aspect of the game. One thing I'd like to see is a second set of tires that are era specific. Perhaps narrow it down to 10 year periods, so a 60's tire, a 70's tire etc. They would be harder, wear longer, have a greater slip angle, less grip all around etc. If every car could have both the generic tire model and then the era specific tire model, I think it would add a new element to the game for us hardcore players.

Don't underestimate oldtimers, some of them are still more than capable by today standards. Also, people put modern tyres on those cars even in real life. I followed an Alpine A110 which had R888s fitted for example, but even on their stock tyres, they're still awesome : my dad owned one of those back in the 70s and he keeps telling me he has never driven something that handled so well since then.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Don't underestimate oldtimers, some of them are still more than capable by today standards. Also, people put modern tyres on those cars even in real life. I followed an Alpine A110 which had R888s fitted for example, but even on their stock tyres, they're still awesome : my dad owned one of those back in the 70s and he keeps telling me he has never driven something that handled so well since then.

I already know you can put modern tires on an older car, the point was, I want to drive it on the tires it came with and experience what it was like to drive the car the way it rolled off the factory floor, and compete with other cars of the same era under the same conditions. To see a 60's Ferrari toe to toe with an RX-8 is fun, but a little arcadish to me. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Voodoovaj]

What would PD's reason for shaming millions of customers into a different tire choice? I mean how would that help their bottom line? When given a free choice, most people choose racing tires, I don't see how PD benefits by customers choosing lower grade tires and having a less enjoyable, for them, experience.

I'm not saying they would directly shame the user. Just call a spade a spade. I've heard people call the Racing Tires "Arcade Tires" online. The discussions can get heated. A lot of RS users (especially) don't like the connotation that their skill is being questioned or that their lap times are somehow invalidated. Plenty (most?) people think that the racing tires are exactly that...simulated racing tires. People aren't all going to go and compare. They'll just take the naming convention at face value.

By simply calling the racing tires "arcade" (arcade hard, arcade medium, arcade soft) it creates a natural separation between players who are looking for "fun" racing and those who are looking for more of a challenge. There's an understanding that the tires are hyper sticky.

When I say that players would be shamed, I think many will avoid racing in the arcade rooms because it fails to satisfy the fantasy. I'm saying that they would be somewhat ashamed to need an "arcade" tire to navigate the track. Everyone goes into this with a hidden desire to be the formula one world champion.

For instance, if "SKID RECOVERY FORCE" was called "ARCADE DRIVER ASSISTANCE" , I would wager that the usage of SRF would drop off IMMENSELY.

I already know you can put modern tires on an older car, the point was, I want to drive it on the tires it came with and experience what it was like to drive the car the way it rolled off the factory floor, and compete with other cars of the same era under the same conditions. To see a 60's Ferrari toe to toe with an RX-8 is fun, but a little arcadish to me. But that's just my opinion.

I agree and this is why I also support a "factory" tire setting. So many cars are tuned by the designers to replicate some belief of a car's behaviour, but with the game's tires. For instance, the F40. Sure, it's a handful in real life (so I hear) and it came with old Pirelli P-Zeros. Should it sill be a handful with modern semi-slicks? The Same with the cars that came with bias ply tires.

Obviously, players play the game and become accustomed to whatever the physics are. Why not just dial it back a bit? Just comparing times between GT5 and GT6 shows the massive jump in traction.

The only people left are the hardcore fans anyway, announce a change. Just a name change...no one will have to adjust their cars, just their beliefs.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I dont know if I missed something.
So I bolded a few key lines, standing start and flying lap.

First question is is did you do a standing start or did you do a hot lap?

I honestly don't see how there is a fault if you can achieve a real time.

I did a flying lap. The Stig did his lap from a standing start. I just pointed that out for full disclosure.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Not sure how much of it is the "racing tyres" and how much is the completely unrealistic physics...

Imo, you can't take a real lap time, try to replicate it on gt6, and say the tyres are the unrealistic part because you were half a second faster.

The way the sports tyres provide grip is different to the racing tyres. The rs tyres are perhaps a step too far, but on the hards the way the grip falls off very sharply if they are pushed beyond the limit is how racing slicks behave. Sports tyres give a more linear grip level, with the drop off being much easier to feel and react to, which is more like a high performance road tyre. Comforts are the easiest tyres to feel the grip of. The tyres are far from perfect, but they aren't the game's biggest problem as far as physics are concerned.

How about the aero? Aerodynamics in gt6 are so wrong that I managed over 600kph from a cerbera speed 12... Then we have the broken suspension model, so who knows what else is coming into play to make the times unrealistic.

For an example of how lap time comparison in gt6 with real times is useless, I can beat the V8 supercar lap record around mt panorama in a 500hp mustang road car, by over two seconds... A car with less power, more weight, and no aero.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Not sure how much of it is the "racing tyres" and how much is the completely unrealistic physics...

Imo, you can't take a real lap time, try to replicate it on gt6, and say the tyres are the unrealistic part because you were half a second faster.

The way the sports tyres provide grip is different to the racing tyres. The rs tyres are perhaps a step too far, but on the hards the way the grip falls off very sharply if they are pushed beyond the limit is how racing slicks behave. Sports tyres give a more linear grip level, with the drop off being much easier to feel and react to, which is more like a high performance road tyre. Comforts are the easiest tyres to feel the grip of. The tyres are far from perfect, but they aren't the game's biggest problem as far as physics are concerned.

How about the aero? Aerodynamics in gt6 are so wrong that I managed over 600kph from a cerbera speed 12... Then we have the broken suspension model, so who knows what else is coming into play to make the times unrealistic.

For an example of how lap time comparison in gt6 with real times is useless, I can beat the V8 supercar lap record around mt panorama in a 500hp mustang road car, by over two seconds... A car with less power, more weight, and no aero.

I think grip is the problem here all around.

I went to Route X to see the difference between RS tires and CH tires on speed. I grabbed a Huayra and hit 438kph (272mph) on RS. I changed to the CH tires and maxed out at 417kph (261mph).

As for the broken "aero" I can lap any track faster with the best 500 pp cars on SS tires, than some of the 600pp race cars on RH tires. Why would this happen with supposedly stickier tires and downforce? Because those 600pp racecars (like the Lexus touring car concept) have very low levels of grip in their properties.

I don't understand the way PD uses their grip setting. Shouldn't there be a standard grip value across all cars, with a SLIGHT tweak (higher or lower) to match their real world counterpart?

There is no way a nearly 700hp race car with full downforce should be slower, especially with corner speed, than a 300hp street car.

Hopefully, PD changes their design direction when it comes to grip. With GT6 in particular, I think they went overboard with the grip (Probably because of the hacking that happened). WAY overboard in many cases (the outlier cars in particular). Maybe they can rework it in a future update, because in all honestly, I think this is one of the main reasons why this version is less popular that gt5. It's lost it's easy to under/hard to master aspect to an extent. Now it's easy to understand/easy to win with the right car.

 

[Johnnypenso]

As for the broken "aero" I can lap any track faster with the best 500 pp cars on SS tires, than some of the 600pp race cars on RH tires. Why would this happen with supposedly stickier tires and downforce? Because those 600pp racecars (like the Lexus touring car concept) have very low levels of grip in their properties.

Which cars are these?

There is no way a nearly 700hp race car with full downforce should be slower, especially with corner speed, than a 300hp street car.

Not a chance.

Hopefully, PD changes their design direction when it comes to grip. With GT6 in particular, I think they went overboard with the grip (Probably because of the hacking that happened). WAY overboard in many cases (the outlier cars in particular).

Why would a handful of people hybriding change grip physics in GT6?

 

[Mike_grpA]

I think the real problem is they just haven't tried hard enough to build the important parts of the game. All of their attention has been on beefing up the graphics and collaborations with the auto industry (vgt, boasting about working with yokohama and kw, fia partnership, nissan partnership for gt academy). The physics have been severely broken from day one, and not much has been done to fix them. The career is also laughably dated, and comes accross as half finished. And, lastly, the arcade mode seems like an afterthought, with no customisation whatsoever.

They have worked hard on headline grabbing gimmicks mostly, and left the core of the game to rot.

Edit* I don't mind though, SMS seems to actually be listening to what people want, so we only have to wait for Pcars for a game with good physics, that actually has what we want in it. PD better up their game for GT7 or the franchise, and with it the company, will sadly die.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Which cars are these?

The Nismo Gt-R GT3 is one. The Lexus Touring car concept is the other (I tried the 15th anniversary versions).

Contrast them to the RX-7 FD (?? I think that's the name, the newest, premium version), The RX500, or the Shelby series one.

Not a chance.

I know...How does this get approval? I blame some biz dev guys for this. I have seen far too many examples of biz dev people completely misunderstanding data and then forcing game design changes.

Why would a handful of people hybriding change grip physics in GT6?

It's an aspect of data driven design, however, misguided. They saw what the hackers accessed and what users said in response to the discoveries. A lot of people wondered about adding nitrous back into the game and boom, nitrous. As for grip, modders used grip to balance out some cars that were essentially useless in GT5 (either through grip changes, through chassis changes, or through access to the super soft tires). However, PD missed the mark and interpreted this as users, across the board, wanting more grip.

I would much rather see the rest of the systems rule over the car rather than the grip. I think the grip modifier should be kept FAR more in check. The F40 is a great example. The stories about the real one is that it's a handful, but it's still regarded as an amazing and responsive car. In the game, it's a handful because it's lateral grip is so low. How does, what is essentially a race car with MASSIVE amounts of rubber, have terrible lateral grip? Especially, when the fact is that in real life it had spectacular lateral grip?

This is a cool thread to read through on Ferrari Chat

(Rant warning) What bugs me most about this case (grip) is the complete lack of respect for the craft of game design. In GT (and gt6 in particular), it's like the game design crew just moved forward with no direction and each went in his own direction with grip without comparing notes with anyone else. What's worse is that no one is resolving this.

Just run a batch job for a day (or week if need be) to normalize the grip levels of the cars. I KNOW this is not that hard and it would be beneficial to the game on the whole. Ya sure, the people that just can't get enough Ferrari Dino wins will cry foul (or whatever unbalanced car you would like to choose), but the game would be more balanced and that can only be a good thing.



And I still think the tire names should be changed.

The physics have been severely broken from day one, and not much has been done to fix them. The career is also laughably dated, and comes accross as half finished. And, lastly, the arcade mode seems like an afterthought, with no customisation whatsoever.

I still think that saying the "physics" is "broken" is not helpful in any way. Broken implies that it does not work, but the cars do indeed work. In fact many (myself included) prefer GT6 to GT5. Also, "physics" in this game encompasses a MASSIVE number of areas. I know developers read through forums, but useful, actionable feedback has to be specific. Hyperbole is simply disregarded.

Edit* I don't mind though, SMS seems to actually be listening to what people want, so we only have to wait for Pcars for a game with good physics, that actually has what we want in it. PD better up their game for GT7 or the franchise, and with it the company, will sadly die.

Based on their work with NFS Shift, I will reserve judgement until I actually play it myself. Shift got a lot of positive press prior to launch too, but I HATED that game when I got my hands on it. It was AWFUL. Hopefully, they do a much better job this time around. It sounds like they are on the right track. It sure would give me a damn good reason to buy a PS4.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The F40 is good in GT6 when effort being made to built to real life spec, I have replica with lots of correction and it has comfort soft tire ( replicate Tsukuba lap record at 1:03.73 ) I don't see how it lack lateral grip when CS tire is more than enough to obliterate real life lap record with similar driving pace.

Here is a surprise, the F40 did 1:00.42 at Tsukuba on slicks, now in GT6, the same replica on CS can do that lap merely by using sports tire, and with lifting the throttle on shift up and throttle blip on downshift ( I used stick )

 

[Voodoovaj]

The F40 is good in GT6 when effort being made to built to real life spec, I have replica with lots of correction and it has comfort soft tire ( replicate Tsukuba lap record at 1:03.73 ) I don't see how it lack lateral grip when CS tire is more than enough to obliterate real life lap record with similar driving pace.

Here is a surprise, the F40 did 1:00.42 at Tsukuba on slicks, now in GT6, the same replica on CS can do that lap merely by using sports tire, and with lifting the throttle on shift up and throttle blip on downshift ( I used stick )

I meant in regards to other cars in the game. I love the F40 and I find it's better with harder tires. If the grip were more standardized, I think the F40 would be one of the better cars in the game, which it should be.

But there again is another example of comforts being more than good enough. I tried CS on my 600pp Aston DB9 last night. After getting accustomed to it, it works just fine.

Why call them comforts? Call them street. A "soft" street tire, in my mind, is a DOT legal track tire. That appears to match the Cs tire in GT6. Just call it that. I hate that 90% (or more) open lobbies are on the racing tires. I was looking through the online leagues, and even there, the "racing" tires get over used.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Head on over to the Seasonal Event that have just been released this evening.

In an extremely serendipitous case of coincidence, there is a 500 pp COMFORT SOFT time trial for Asian cars.

Could it be that someone is looking to see what the reception is like? I've started it by the way and it is a FANTASTIC drive. I'm using the 02 RX7 first.