Stock brakes...Really?

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BuToNz

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BuToNz
Hi guys,

Been wondering this for a while, why have they never included uprated brakes options in tuning? Doesn't make sense to be able to add 400hp but do nothing at all to the brakes.

Anyone else feel this? Or are the brakes pretty much the same on all cars? :yuck:

Pondering around the ring with all cars feeling exactly the same on the brakes feels weird.
 
You can switch the brake balance. There is no brake fluid change as in prior GT games and I haven't noticed all of the cars having the same brakes.
 
Well for instance all the variants of R34 Skylines feel the same. Even the Mine's Skylines don't seem to slow down any quicker. Even though they would of had uprated brakes.
 
Just used a stock R34 and the Mine's R34, both from 100-0 stopped at the same point. (100% brake pedal and 5 ABS on both)

For your information...IRL the Mine's R34 had uprated discs and pads. Maybe I'm comparing a one off but to me most of the game feels like this. Your stock car upgraded feels the same under braking.
 
BuToNz
Just used a stock R34 and the Mine's R34, both from 100-0 stopped at the same point. (100% brake pedal and 5 ABS on both)

For your information the Mine's R34 had uprated discs and pads. Maybe I'm comparing a one off but to me most of the game feels like this. Your stock car upgraded feels the same under braking.
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It is hard to wrap one's head around, I agree, but it is very hard to stop a car any faster. Once the brakes are strong enough to lock the wheels, making them stronger isn't going to help at all.

Brake upgrades in the real world are done to fight fade (which isn't modeled in the game), alter sprung and unsprung weight, and keep up with changes in power and tire grip (where braking distance is actually affected).
 
BuToNz
Just used a stock R34 and the Mine's R34, both from 100-0 stopped at the same point. (100% brake pedal and 5 ABS on both)

For your information...IRL the Mine's R34 had uprated discs and pads. Maybe I'm comparing a one off but to me most of the game feels like this. Your stock car upgraded feels the same under braking.
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Turn ABS off then. What is your definition of upgraded discs and pads? How would you know which car has them and which doesn't?
 
BuToNz
Just used a stock R34 and the Mine's R34, both from 100-0 stopped at the same point. (100% brake pedal and 5 ABS on both)
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Which should be the case for two cars with very similar weight distribution, aerodynamic properties and tire sizes. In real life if they both had the same tires they would both stop very close to each other from a 100-0 stop.
 
From my point of view the brakes appear to work much the same as in a real street car. In a real car you can refurbish the rotors and pads, but the car still takes just as long and as far to stop during panic stops.

What the game adds is the ability to balance the brakes. In a scale of 0-100, you can move the brake force to the front or rear, and this does have an effect on how the car decelerates.

The key to this is that the front brakes always provide the most braking, but unknown to many, this is dependent on the suspension spring force. If your front springs are too hard, the brakes will lock and the car will skid farther. Springs too soft, and the car will over brake and oversteer spinning you. This is due to the weight transfer from back to front during braking. You need to find a happy medium here.

If you care to try this, add lots of braking power to the rear brakes without changing anything on your car. Make a high speed entry into a turn and you'll see your car fishtailing out of control with hard braking. Do the opposite and you will feel lots of overtseer.

Another tool that the game adds is the ABS. The ABS principle is based on the fact that when a tire locks it looses traction. The magic is to keep the tire always in contact with the road to a full stop. ABS brakes sense when the tire begins to skip and adjust the braking power accordingly. If you combine the braking balance with the spring force and the ABS you can improve the braking capacity tremendously.

If you are a league driver you will find that some guys that are consistent winners have mastered the braking issue. They can dive into a turn and touch the brakes lightly making time through the turns. Those like me that are not so good at it can only make up time on the straights.

I hope this adds a little clarity to the braking issue.
 
Condor
From my point of view the brakes appear to work much the same as in a real street car. In a real car you can refurbish the rotors and pads, but the car still takes just as long and as far to stop during panic stops.

What the game adds is the ability to balance the brakes. In a scale of 0-100, you can move the brake force to the front or rear, and this does have an effect on how the car decelerates.

The key to this is that the front brakes always provide the most braking, but unknown to many, this is dependent on the suspension spring force. If your front springs are too hard, the brakes will lock and the car will skid farther. Springs too soft, and the car will over brake and oversteer spinning you. This is due to the weight transfer from back to front during braking. You need to find a happy medium here.

If you care to try this, add lots of braking power to the rear brakes without changing anything on your car. Make a high speed entry into a turn and you'll see your car fishtailing out of control with hard braking. Do the opposite and you will feel lots of overtseer.

Another tool that the game adds is the ABS. The ABS principle is based on the fact that when a tire locks it looses traction. The magic is to keep the tire always in contact with the road to a full stop. ABS brakes sense when the tire begins to skip and adjust the braking power accordingly. If you combine the braking balance with the spring force and the ABS you can improve the braking capacity tremendously.

If you are a league driver you will find that some guys that are consistent winners have mastered the braking issue. They can dive into a turn and touch the brakes lightly making time through the turns. Those like me that are not so good at it can only make up time on the straights.

I hope this adds a little clarity to the braking issue.
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Thanks for the detailed response, exactly what I was looking for.

I understand the effect of brake balance but I still wonder why uprated brake options don't exist. I mean, when converting a car to race specs you'd change the brakes out for higher diameter brakes.
 
As has been said by others, if your brakes are strong enough to lock your wheels up they are ok. Upgrading them doesnt make a difference in game due to brake fade not being present. Its grip that shortens braking (tyres).
 
Blitz24
Turn ABS off then. What is your definition of upgraded discs and pads? How would you know which car has them and which doesn't?
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It's a standard specification as is the CC of an engine. Maybe this would make more sense on Premium cars only as I can guess some cars the specifications maybe hard to get hold of.

For instance the Spec V GTR uses uprated brakes compared to the standard GTR. Same result in a braking test.
 
Toronado
Because they wouldn't do anything in GT5, just like they didn't do anything in GT4.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for them to add it. Just wanted to understand the reasoning as it's just as important as tire grip.
 
You'd have to switch to Forza to upgrade and feel differences in brakes. I do think reaction time is different with different brakes and I notice differences when driving in real life. This is the reason ventilated discs exist (allowing heat to escape) as well as larger brake options. My Mazdaspeed 3 has giant rotors compared to the older Camaro I used to have and you can stop 3 times faster even when driving a lot quicker. I'd have to disagree that crappy street car brakes that cost next to nothing and a race car's brakes can stop the race car in the exact same time and have the same level of safety. Just because GT can't do it doesn't mean it doesn't exist I'm afraid.
 
CDJW
I'd have to disagree that crappy street car brakes that cost next to nothing and a race car's brakes can stop the race car in the exact same time and have the same level of safety.
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That depends entirely on the circumstances. A single 100-0 stop in a car with a good ABS system (as in the testing done by the OP) would make it so you could have drum brakes all around and it wouldn't be any slower than vented and grooved multi-piston disc brakes (other than the time required for the brakes to achieve full pressure).
 
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CDJW
You'd have to switch to Forza to upgrade and feel differences in brakes. I do think reaction time is different with different brakes and I notice differences when driving in real life. This is the reason ventilated discs exist (allowing heat to escape) as well as larger brake options. My Mazdaspeed 3 has giant rotors compared to the older Camaro I used to have and you can stop 3 times faster even when driving a lot quicker. I'd have to disagree that crappy street car brakes that cost next to nothing and a race car's brakes can stop the race car in the exact same time and have the same level of safety. Just because GT can't do it doesn't mean it doesn't exist I'm afraid.
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The game engine doesn't support the function and therefor doesn't exist - Where can I get some of those rose tinted glasses? :dopey:
 
butonz: So you think because a game can't replicate or include something it doesn't exist in real life? Riiigghhht. I think you've been playing in the virtual world too long. :odd:
 
Toronado
That depends entirely on the circumstances. A single 100-0 stop in a car with a good ABS system (as in the testing done by the OP) would make it so you could have drum brakes all around and it wouldn't be any slower than vented and grooved multi-piston disc brakes (other than the time required for the brakes to achieve full pressure).
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Just done the testing again with no ABS, same result. Tyres locked up at exactly the same point on Racing Soft tyres. Both stopped at the same point. :yuck:

Cars in question:
http://www.mygranturismo.net/car_sheet.php?id=737 - Stock GTR
http://www.mygranturismo.net/car_sheet.php?id=551 - Mine's GTR

Everything was stock, no tuning.
 
BuToNz
Just done the testing again with no ABS, same result. Tyres locked up at exactly the same point on Racing Soft tyres. Both stopped at the same point. :yuck:
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Again, they are basically the same car from a braking standpoint. Same tires, same aerodynamics, very similar weight distribution, similar suspension setup and identical geometry, etc. The biggest difference between the two is the difference in weight, but weight has a far smaller effect on braking distances than suspension stiffness and weight distribution. When the game doesn't model fade (which could occur in a single stop if a car has really crappy brakes), you shouldn't expect any difference in stopping times/distances.
 
For a 50-0 mph maybe as heat cannot get very high. But in a 100-0 mph stop, no way drum brakes comparison to nowadays ventilated disks...
 
Toronado
Again, they are basically the same car from a braking standpoint. Same tires, same aerodynamics, very similar weight distribution, etc. The biggest difference between the two is the difference in weight, but weight has a far smaller effect on braking distances than suspension stiffness and weight distribution. When the game doesn't model fade (which could occur in a single stop if a car has really crappy brakes), you shouldn't expect any difference in stopping times/distances.
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Of course you can predict the result, doesn't mean it would be the same IRL. I guess what we've got from this thread is that there is no brake fade calculations in GT5 so therefor no one wishes to discuss it.
 
BuToNz
Of course you can predict the result, doesn't mean it would be the same IRL. I guess what we've got from this thread is that there is no brake fade calculations in GT5 so therefor no one wishes to discuss it.
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If there is no brake fade, there isn't much to discuss. Brake fade determines whether or not you need upgraded brakes. You were asking about stock brakes vs upgrades correct?
 

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