Strange A.I. behaviour...

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Chuda

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Hi,

New to GTPlanet, so hello everyone.

Has anyone noticed any odd behaviour with the speed at which the A.I. cars drive?

I was racing at Brands Hatch on a 3-lap race. Towards the end of lap 2 I was in 3rd, but a mistake at the start of sector 4 lost me 5 seconds and left me over 9 seconds behind the leader. At this point I thought “No chance of winning this, so I’ll just finish the race to learn the track better and I’ll win it next time.”

Next thing I know, I’m less than half way round lap three and I’m passing the leader.”Blimey!” I thought, “He was driving much slower than I thought he was”, and I then expected to disappear off into the sunset.

But it didn’t happen; he kept up with me fairly well.

So what was happening, I wondered. Does the A.I. speed up after you pass them?

So, being a bit of a geek, I started up the repay and got a pen & paper. Here are the results...

These are the sector times for the lead A.I. driver, followed by my times in brackets. If there is an “x” beside my time, I made a mistake which slowed me down. Lap 1 Sector 1 is irrelevant for the A.I. car, as the time doesn’t start ticking until we start the race, of course.

Lap 1 S1: ??(23) S2: 17(16) S3: 16(18x) S4: 27(26) S5: 26(25)
Lap2 S1: 21(21) S2: 17(16) S3: 15(15) S4: 29(31x) S5: 31(26)
Lap3 S1: 25(21) S2: 20(16) S3: 16(15) S4: 28(27) S5: 26(26)

Have a close look at Lap 2, sector 4 to Lap 3 sector 2. In the space of 4 Sectors, he loses 14 seconds! I then passed him just after the end of sector 2, and he speeds up again.

What was that all about?

And no, there were no incidents; he was simply racing round, closely followed by the A.I. in second.

Any thoughts?
 
Welcome to GTP,

It's what some/most of us call rubber band AI,
The cars in front are slower and the cars behind are faster (compeared to their own normal performance) to keep the field together and make you feel like you're on a packed track.
 
Thanks GTlondoner,

What ever happened to “The real driving simulator”? Last time I checked, real drivers don’t behave this way! LOL

Has GT always done this and I’ve just never noticed, or is GT6 worse?

He’d normally drive those 4 sectors in about 91 seconds. In this example he slowed to 105 seconds. That’s a 15% increase. Is this a particularly bad example, perhaps?

I can’t help but noticed that those damn karts don’t seem to do this. When I’m driving around on my own, way behind the rest, it don’t feel like I’m on a “packed track” to me! LOL
 
There are often times when the AI drivers slow to let you catch them. When they are overtaken, some let you zoom off into the distance, while others sneak back up to you in the closing seconds of a race. I certainly find their tactics frustrating and difficult to predict.
 
The AI is much better this time around. I was doing a night race at Bathurst and on the back straight out of nowhere a black 3000GT pulled up right next to me! I was shocked. On a few other occasions I've had the AI purposely try to wreck me by tapping my tail end as I passed them. Odd behaviors I've seen the AI pull is brake check me when drafting on a straightaway and also randomly slowly down.
 
Their really dirty racers. I've found they will come off their racing line to block your path as you come up to pass them. It makes you stop and adjust how you will go about the passing maneuvers. With cars on par with mine I've found it best to follow and then out brake into corners.
I take it on the chin most of the time and use the chain of thought that if they are more like this then learning little what if tat s may help against online racing. Most racers won't push ya of the track but there is times when accidents happen and if the way the als are in gt6 can help my get out of trouble and recover technics I say bring it on.
 
dotcolin
The AI is much better this time around. I was doing a night race at Bathurst and on the back straight out of nowhere a black 3000GT pulled up right next to me! I was shocked. On a few other occasions I've had the AI purposely try to wreck me by tapping my tail end as I passed them. Odd behaviors I've seen the AI pull is brake check me when drafting on a straightaway and also randomly slowly down.
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AdonisMentor
Their really dirty racers. I've found they will come off their racing line to block your path as you come up to pass them. It makes you stop and adjust how you will go about the passing maneuvers. With cars on par with mine I've found it best to follow and then out brake into corners.
I take it on the chin most of the time and use the chain of thought that if they are more like this then learning little what if tat s may help against online racing. Most racers won't push ya of the track but there is times when accidents happen and if the way the als are in gt6 can help my get out of trouble and recover technics I say bring it on.
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I just came in here looking to vent about this - I searched and this was the first thread I saw that mentioned it... so here we go.

It started a few updates after GT5 was released... can't believe it's still present in GT6. I guess we're stuck with it forever. I do not think this is the AI trying to mess with you, I think it's them trying to let you pass. It's the most disastrous BS, whatever it is. Practically every other race, I end up ramming hard into the back end of a stupid AI driver because (usually upon exiting the turn) they just sit dead in the water. As mentioned above, sometimes there's erratic braking involved. I come out of the turn expecting to pass them so I might even be taking an off-line to go around them - and if they don't just slam me right in the racing line they move to that line I'm on and effectively block me. It drives me completely insane. I tried to use it as I believe it is intended - stick to the racing line and wait for them to get out of my way when I'm coming in much hotter that them... nope, BAM. It's mind boggling. I would rather have the AI from GT1 than this.
 
AdonisMentor
They're really dirty racers. I've found they will come off their racing line to block your path as you come up to pass them. It makes you stop and adjust how you will go about the passing maneuvers. With cars on par with mine I've found it best to follow and then out brake into corners.....
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Is that dirty racing? I thought that was racing. It's called defensive driving when the guy in front of you blocks your path. He's allowed to block one way but not back and forth. Formula 1....
You sure you're not comparing with Nascar? There this might be dirty.

Edit...didn't see you
Fredzy
...
...I end up ramming hard into the back end of a stupid AI driver because (usually upon exiting the turn) they just sit dead in the water.

......... they move to that line I'm on and effectively block me.... ......
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Are we on the same planet? If you drive into the back of a guy who is standing still IT'S YOUR FAULT. My goodness me.

It drives me completely insane.
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Indeed.
 
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SirAlanClive
Is that dirty racing? I thought that was racing. It's called defensive driving when the guy in front of you blocks your path. He's allowed to block one way but not back and forth. Formula 1....
You sure you're not comparing with Nascar? There this might be dirty.

Edit...didn't see you


Are we on the same planet? If you drive into the back of a guy who is standing still IT'S YOUR FAULT. My goodness me.



Indeed.
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when your up beside their rear wheel then at their door leaving two feet to allow room for your self and them and they ram into your side making you go into a wall or off tract only to spin its not right. But like I wrote I get over it and use it as a technics teacher so when it happens again I'm better prepared.
 
hehehe, I've been seeing this ^.

At times they might be moving out of the way, but as it turns out I was taking the long way around them allowing them the line they were on. When they move, they move into my line.

I have also found them to be pushing me off the track when they should be allowing me the line if I'm on the inside and more than half way up to their front end. But they turn in and tag me, putting me into a spin when my car bounces back out.

Other times it looks like they are clearly blocking, which is legal, but you can only make one blocking move. If you move right, then the left side is open and not to be closed down if you can switch back before overtaking it's all yours.

I have not payed close enough attention to this to see if they move back and forth. I know from a distance I have seen cars swerve back and forth. Really slowing themselves down, or at least should be. Making me wonder which side I will pass them on as I approach closer.
 
To right smilyor. Blocking is racing and when your behind them and wishing to come around if one is too close then fair enough if your tagged because you didn't give them nor your self time to or room to correct or straighten up. But when you have come up given enough room and still tagged when beside them its not rubbing is racing but a move that is ment to keep you from getting ahead of them.
 
Fredzy
I just came in here looking to vent about this - I searched and this was the first thread I saw that mentioned it... so here we go.

It started a few updates after GT5 was released... can't believe it's still present in GT6. I guess we're stuck with it forever. I do not think this is the AI trying to mess with you, I think it's them trying to let you pass. It's the most disastrous BS, whatever it is. Practically every other race, I end up ramming hard into the back end of a stupid AI driver because (usually upon exiting the turn) they just sit dead in the water. As mentioned above, sometimes there's erratic braking involved. I come out of the turn expecting to pass them so I might even be taking an off-line to go around them - and if they don't just slam me right in the racing line they move to that line I'm on and effectively block me. It drives me completely insane. I tried to use it as I believe it is intended - stick to the racing line and wait for them to get out of my way when I'm coming in much hotter that them... nope, BAM. It's mind boggling. I would rather have the AI from GT1 than this.
Click to expand...

I've said it before and will keep repeating in hopes that PD will fix the TERRIBLE AI in this game, but every version since GT1 the AI has gotten WORST I doubt it's going to change any time soon. Someone at PD thinks this BS is acceptable. They are very, very wrong. 15 years and 6 games and they can't program even basic AI. So sad.

In GT1 the other cars drove like mindless robots, but as a result they were very PREDICTABLE, their lap times were incredibly consistent. This made finding a good car pretty easy - you could actually run time trials alone and tune your car to be just fast enough to win.

The lap / sector times proves the AI programming is a mess. They are not blocking or trying to lose the draft, they are not re-acting, it's purely random, stupid stuff designed to fool you into thinking there is some logic in the background. That's my honest take on things after witnessing multiple incidents. I've even replayed races and watched from the AI's viewpoint - they drive like idiots.

This is the most disappointing part of the game because it makes entering each race a complete crapshoot of guessing how fast you need to be to catch 1st place. I've lost by tiny margins, added parts and lost again because "magically" the AI adapts or cheats in an effort to make the race close - it drives me crazy!
 
I dont think the AI has gotten worse just we spend more time with and understand it better.
To the original poster: yes it always was this way, even more worse before!
 
dotcolin
On a few other occasions I've had the AI purposely try to wreck me by tapping my tail end as I passed them.
Click to expand...

I don't think this actually happens. While it certainly feels that way, it might just be that their line just happens to cross yours, and they blindly drive into your tail because they're on rails.

At least that's how it was for me every time I've looked at a replay of it happening.

xpc316e
There are often times when the AI drivers slow to let you catch them. When they are overtaken, some let you zoom off into the distance, while others sneak back up to you in the closing seconds of a race. I certainly find their tactics frustrating and difficult to predict.
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I think the A.I. has three behaviours. They have their standard lap times (which are easily beatable in most cases). their behaviour when the player is "within reach". When you're within reach they'll be faster and try to stay ahead/catch up.
If you're behind on the last couple laps, they'll slow down massively to let you catch up.
In the case that you're out of their reach and not behind them in the last laps, they'll just drive their regular on-rails lap times.
 
AdonisMentor
when your up beside their rear wheel then at their door leaving two feet to allow room for your self and them and they ram into your side making you go into a wall or off tract only to spin its not right. But like I wrote I get over it and use it as a technics teacher so when it happens again I'm better prepared.
Click to expand...

Yes....when cornering inside them they stay on their line as if you weren't there :dopey:. I like going round the outside (at Suzuka - turn 3 or on these new big corners in the desert) to avoid this. Makes my scrotal sack feel bigger too :O. They never ram outwards because they'd lose it if they tried. It's really no different to what we do to them most of the time.
The amount of contact in a DTM is massive...all those lovely Audis, Mercs and BMWs trading paint and carbon fiber....
Take him out mate, before he takes you out....then you have a race on!

Dragonbeard
I don't think this actually happens. While it certainly feels that way, it might just be that their line just happens to cross yours, and they blindly drive into your tail because they're on rails.

At least that's how it was for me every time I've looked at a replay of it happening.

I think the A.I. has three behaviours. They have their standard lap times (which are easily beatable in most cases). their behaviour when the player is "within reach". When you're within reach they'll be faster and try to stay ahead/catch up.
If you're behind on the last couple laps, they'll slow down massively to let you catch up.
In the case that you're out of their reach and not behind them in the last laps, they'll just drive their regular on-rails lap times.
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Yes I've also seen on replays that what appeared to be a takeout, was just the other car sticking to its line as if I wasn't there, thus touching my backend enough to spin me out.

I see the AI variations too, but whether one car can display several behaviours during a race, or whether the grid is set at start with a variety of behaviours, I don't know.

I imagine it would have been relatively easy to link the AI behaviour choices to the drivers' aids settings in the race. We who take it all off are saying 'bring it on'. Those using a lot of aids are 'asking for leniency'.

However you look at it, this is an improvement on 5.
 
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SirAlanClive
Are we on the same planet? If you drive into the back of a guy who is standing still IT'S YOUR FAULT. My goodness me.
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I didn't know that stopping dead upon exiting a corner was normal race car drivin' behavior that one should anticipate 👍 Now I'll know not to follow too closely. You never know when your opponent will have to stop in the middle of the road to type a text message, or check their map or something :rolleyes:

Yea I'll be totally OK the next time I get brake-check crashed by a bot.
 
I'm not speaking about under brakes into a corner Im speaking about side by side on straights.
SirAlanClive
Yes....when cornering inside them they stay on their line as if you weren't there :dopey:. I like going round the outside (at Suzuka - turn 3 or on these new big corners in the desert) to avoid this. Makes my scrotal sack feel bigger too :O. They never ram outwards because they'd lose it if they tried. It's really no different to what we do to them most of the time.
The amount of contact in a DTM is massive...all those lovely Audis, Mercs and BMWs trading paint and carbon fiber....
Take him out mate, before he takes you out....then you have a race on!



Yes I've also seen on replays that what appeared to be a takeout, was just the other car sticking to its line as if I wasn't there, thus touching my backend enough to spin me out.

I see the AI variations too, but whether one car can display several behaviours during a race, or whether the grid is set at start with a variety of behaviours, I don't know.

I imagine it would have been relatively easy to link the AI behaviour choices to the drivers' aids settings in the race. We who take it all off are saying 'bring it on'. Those using a lot of aids are 'asking for leniency'.

However you look at it, this is an improvement on 5.
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I n
 
I actually kind of like the unpredictability. I am practicing so that I can race clean online. The way the AI is now, I sometimes have to search for lines around them. I sometimes have to pass them twice because they will run me down on the straights and overtake me. I have be cautious in the braking zones to avoid hitting them in the rear or getting hit in the rear myself. If I take a car that is evenly matched with them then I do not always win. Sometimes it takes me a few trys to get by an AI car clean and I end up finishing just behind the leaders. Sometimes I get by pretty clean and win going away. The AI has its flaws but because of them I am becoming a better driver.
 
Gotta disagree with JMII

I don't think it's random behavior at all. Nor do I think it's meant to make people think they are in a packed field, as someone else suggested. I think it's purely about artificial difficulty. The AI does not race itself. It is not a field of 6-12 individual cars each trying to win. It's a field of 5-11 cars against YOU (the player). The lead cars job is to win, every other cars job is to slow you down and keep you from winning.

It fits with the lack of qualifying. And the magical nature of AI cars. And the lack of damage.

If we could qualify, we would be at the front and not have to fight through the field, thus it would be easier.

The AI is "magic" in that their cars seem to have nearly infinite mass, yet get around the track as one would expect a car of that type to. Their mass is evident when you hit them, or they hit you. Slam into them at intense speed, you bump them a little, normally serving only to speed them up. Get hit BY them and get unsettled, thrown off course, or spun. If you could imagine being in space on a steel surface, they have magnetic boots and you don't.

And the lack of damage becomes necessary because of all the above. Can't damage the cars when it's nearly impossible to get through races consistently without getting clipped. Yes, passing cleanly is possible, but it's a high probability that you will get hit, or brake checked, sooner or later.

A good example of all this was Fighting Muscle at Spa. I was in a 2013 Viper GTS, there was a Boss 302 and something else (forget what now) ahead of me, I got stuck behind them and they were 2 wide taking up the whole track after turn 1. I could not get by, meanwhile the lead cars are zooming off. After I got spun out, I restarted, and I shot by them just before the turn, looking back, the same 2 cars, still together, started to spread out, but changed their mind and filed in behind each other - because I wasn't there to block.

The only time they race each other is when you hold one up, another will go by. Time and again, in pursuit of clean races, I've run the same one over and over and over again, each and every time the order is always the same, and changes take place only when interactions with me slows one of them down. I've seen countless other instances of this that don't stand out so clearly in my mind to be able to recount, but I'm certain that they are working together to stop you and make it more difficult for you to win.

The reason for this would be the people who run seemingly impossible times, who gold everything in a week and complain there is no challenge in the series. This is an attempt to artificially increase difficulty.

As for the rubber-banding of the lead car, part of that might be incentive to make you race hard, thinking you can win, but on the other hand, it makes sense to take it easy if you are in front, but pour it on when you are not. But this really only happens in relation to you (the player), not other AI.
 
DrkPhnyx
Gotta disagree with JMII

I don't think it's random behavior at all. Nor do I think it's meant to make people think they are in a packed field, as someone else suggested. I think it's purely about artificial difficulty. The AI does not race itself. It is not a field of 6-12 individual cars each trying to win. It's a field of 5-11 cars against YOU (the player). The lead cars job is to win, every other cars job is to slow you down and keep you from winning.

It fits with the lack of qualifying. And the magical nature of AI cars. And the lack of damage.

If we could qualify, we would be at the front and not have to fight through the field, thus it would be easier.

The AI is "magic" in that their cars seem to have nearly infinite mass, yet get around the track as one would expect a car of that type to. Their mass is evident when you hit them, or they hit you. Slam into them at intense speed, you bump them a little, normally serving only to speed them up. Get hit BY them and get unsettled, thrown off course, or spun. If you could imagine being in space on a steel surface, they have magnetic boots and you don't.

And the lack of damage becomes necessary because of all the above. Can't damage the cars when it's nearly impossible to get through races consistently without getting clipped. Yes, passing cleanly is possible, but it's a high probability that you will get hit, or brake checked, sooner or later.

A good example of all this was Fighting Muscle at Spa. I was in a 2013 Viper GTS, there was a Boss 302 and something else (forget what now) ahead of me, I got stuck behind them and they were 2 wide taking up the whole track after turn 1. I could not get by, meanwhile the lead cars are zooming off. After I got spun out, I restarted, and I shot by them just before the turn, looking back, the same 2 cars, still together, started to spread out, but changed their mind and filed in behind each other - because I wasn't there to block.

The only time they race each other is when you hold one up, another will go by. Time and again, in pursuit of clean races, I've run the same one over and over and over again, each and every time the order is always the same, and changes take place only when interactions with me slows one of them down. I've seen countless other instances of this that don't stand out so clearly in my mind to be able to recount, but I'm certain that they are working together to stop you and make it more difficult for you to win.

The reason for this would be the people who run seemingly impossible times, who gold everything in a week and complain there is no challenge in the series. This is an attempt to artificially increase difficulty.

As for the rubber-banding of the lead car, part of that might be incentive to make you race hard, thinking you can win, but on the other hand, it makes sense to take it easy if you are in front, but pour it on when you are not. But this really only happens in relation to you (the player), not other AI.
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thats not proper racing tho its more like overtaking simulator
 
DrkPhnyx
Sorry, I don't really follow you...
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Haha, I think he hit the nail on the head. The skills and techniques we learn in making our way to the front of the pack racing GT AI are not always applicable in real racing with real drivers in more closely matched cars.

GT drivers tend to have poor on-track etiquette as a result! We don't know better, we're used to frantically bashing through 11 cars in a couple of laps haha

*edit* you wrote a great summary of the GT AI concept by the way
 
Fredzy
Haha, I think he hit the nail on the head. The skills and techniques we learn in making our way to the front of the pack racing GT AI are not always applicable in real racing with real drivers in more closely matched cars.

GT drivers tend to have poor on-track etiquette as a result! We don't know better, we're used to frantically bashing through 11 cars in a couple of laps haha
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Yeah, don't disagree. My original post was about my observation of the AI, and a bit of a rant against it in fact. I wasn't suggesting that it's nature was a good thing. :)
 
kayto101
most races have a grid start and everyone is battling for position watch racing and then you will understand
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I know what racing is. I watch racing. I don't understand what your comment had to do with the post of mine that you quoted, what is you were trying to say? Were you agreeing? It sounded like you were disagreeing, and I didn't see how or why. Or was it something else entirely.
 

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