The AI question: Has it been improved?

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Eighthours

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Hi guys,

First post, and it could lead to a bit of a debate! :)

On general videogame forums, the hot topic of conversation regarding GT4 is its AI. In the past, it has been seen as one of the only weaknesses of the GT series, and the issue is used by people who don't particularly like GT (normally for other console fanboy reasons) as proof that Gran Turismo may be "The Ultimate Driving Simulator", but very far from "The Ultimate Racing Simulator".

So, all you good people who have imported GT4, how does the AI stack up? Has it been significantly improved, or does it still rely on pre-determined lines with seemingly little knowledge of your presence? Is the AI adaptive, or can you predict what the cars are going to do all the time? Is it a fair challenge, or with some semblance of skill can you drive away from all of the AI cars easily? Do you have to tune down your car in order to make the game more difficult? Is the AI good enough to make up for the lack of an online mode?

In particular (as none of the reviews I've read have discussed this), how do the selectable levels of AI affect things? What's it like on the various settings?

If someone could answer these questions objectively, it might finally put an end to one hundred million arguments elsewhere!! Can GT4 now justifiably claim to be the Ultimate Racing Simulator?

I look forward to reading your responses.
 
I don't have GT4 yet, but I've had several opportunities to play it. I would describe the AI like this:

They won't escape just when they spot you, they do drive their proper racing line. Some people say the AI is stupid showing this behaviour, but I think it's okay. Furthermore they won't avoid collision if you overtake where you actually couldn't, meaning you force your way into a curve or similar driving. But if you do overtake where you also could in real life, they'll leave you enough space to get by. They'll also ram into you if you break too early, which isn't that bad in my eyes. But still there are moments when they behave pretty stupid.

Overall I'd say that the AI has improved over GT3, but there's still room for more improvements. Superficially it still looks stupid though, you have to watch closely to see that it really has improved. That might be the reason why many people still say it's as plain stupid as ever. If you expect them to avoid you whereever you go, this is not your game.

Cheers,
the Interceptor
 
From my experience of a couple of day's play on the beginner races it's improved a little. The cars are slightly less likely to run into the back of you under breaking on corners but still do it sometimes. I've also noticed cars swerving to get past on straights when I block them, but if you steer enough they just back off instead. I don't know if this changes on the later races at all.
 
hauff
simple question: Do they evolve?
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Simple answer: NO!

That would be a little too much to ask, as it would actually require a kind of intelligence that can judge situations and learn how to behave correctly. Not that this kind of intelligence doesn't exist, but it won't run on a PS2.

Cheers,
the Interceptor
 
the Interceptor
I don't have GT4 yet, but I've had several opportunities to play it. I would describe the AI like this:

They won't escape just when they spot you, they do drive their proper racing line. Some people say the AI is stupid showing this behaviour, but I think it's okay. Furthermore they won't avoid collision if you overtake where you actually couldn't, meaning you force your way into a curve or similar driving. But if you do overtake where you also could in real life, they'll leave you enough space to get by. They'll also ram into you if you break too early, which isn't that bad in my eyes. But still there are moments when they behave pretty stupid.

Overall I'd say that the AI has improved over GT3, but there's still room for more improvements. Superficially it still looks stupid though, you have to watch closely to see that it really has improved. That might be the reason why many people still say it's as plain stupid as ever. If you expect them to avoid you whereever you go, this is not your game.

Cheers,
the Interceptor
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Good post, the AI on the school mode in Prolouge was like this.

You are quite right that some people will blame their actions on the AI. You have to be visable to be seen and avoided and you need to be braking in the right area to avoid being run into.

When driving on a track with a helmet on and in a car with a roll cage fitted, visability (particularly to the rear) is greatly reduced. In the real world if you try and squeeze into a gap at the last second and some one in already on the line and commited, it is you that would get penalised, not them.

Same as braking; if you brake for a corner 10 feet before everone else does in tight traffic, you are going to get a tap.

The AI on the GT series has always been stupid, but some people do use it as an excuse for bad driving.
 
Could someone with the game do a simple test? Park your car accross the racing line in the middle of a long straight, so as to give the AI cars plenty of visability of your whereabouts, and see if on the next lap they drive straight into you at 200+kph? Or weather they 'see' your car and move off the racing line onto the other side of the race track thus avoiding a potentially fatal accident? 'Cause the cars in GT3 weren't so cleaver :(

Also, slightly off topic but don't want to start another thread: When in 2 player split screen mode and for example; player 1 hits a wall and the screen goes all blury and shakes, does the screen of player 2 also go all blury and shake, thus causing player 2 to crash/****-up/whatever?

Thanks :)
 
Its a good question i have seen the AI in previus GT games (apart form the first) to be good as you can have a good race drfting and the the rest of it. Gt3 you could quite easily have an intelgent race with the AI.

If you look at most other racing game on a similar level you will descover the AI is a tricky thing to master. Project Gotham Racing 2 had good AI untill you turn the difficult level up to platium where they smash you into walls and spin you out when you try to pass.
Forza motorsport had the worst AI ive seen in a long time in the demo. Thats an area they really have to improve on before release.
GT3 had one of best AIs so far in racing games as far as racing like a real human racing driver is concerned. I hop they have improved on it but you must understand on such complex games it is very difficult for them to master.
 
The AI cars STILL pit on the final lap in long races (15+laps), even when he race doesn't call for pitting at all. I guess that says a lot about AI in GT4...
 
justin_tyme
The AI cars STILL pit on the final lap in long races (15+laps), even when he race doesn't call for pitting at all. I guess that says a lot about AI in GT4...
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Its really annoying when they do that. You wonder weather they will pit and when they dont you think you have to finsih the race with worn tyres. when they pit in you feel so anoyed knowing you could have done so 7 or 8 laps thought the 15 lap race and won with the best pit stratagy
 
Yes, it is annoying and totally destroys your efforts for a close race. You have no idea how many times I get in and out of races to get to the proper amount of A-Spec points (never less than 80), and then boom, they pit themselves to oblivion.

Furthermore, I see nothing has changed regarding the racing line: these guys are on tracks and they won't alter course if a meteor crashes on their roof. I suspect there is just no processing power left for AI in a game this good looking.

By now (I'm at 34%) I'm past the racing challenge and I just want to acquire more cars; I'm especially waiting for day 696. That's a bit disappointing though.
 
To have good A.I. it has to be fun and challenging to race against. GT3's A.I. was boring and easy as hell.

So, is GT4's A.I. fun and challenging? We should be asking this question instead of "will they hit me if I drive like an ass?"

TOCA 2, Papyrus games, Live for Speed, Project Gotham 2, and GTR (demo) have all exhibited far more engaging A.I. than GT3 (they also had online multiplayer). Is GT4 different?
 
Stune
Its really annoying when they do that. You wonder weather they will pit and when they dont you think you have to finsih the race with worn tyres. when they pit in you feel so anoyed knowing you could have done so 7 or 8 laps thought the 15 lap race and won with the best pit stratagy
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Pitting in racing games has always seemed to be a problem as regards AI programming. I still remember the laughable implementation in F1 96. Half the cars would pit almost every lap, others wouldn't pit at all, others would sit in the pits!!
 
kinigitt
To have good A.I. it has to be fun and challenging to race against. GT3's A.I. was boring and easy as hell.

So, is GT4's A.I. fun and challenging? We should be asking this question instead of "will they hit me if I drive like an ass?"

TOCA 2, Papyrus games, Live for Speed, Project Gotham 2, and GTR (demo) have all exhibited far more engaging A.I. than GT3 (they also had online multiplayer). Is GT4 different?
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TOCAs AI was good ill give ya that one. PGR2s was good but when you turned to up the platium it just tryed to ran and spin you off the track instead of race well
 
Eighthours
Pitting in racing games has always seemed to be a problem as regards AI programming. I still remember the laughable implementation in F1 96. Half the cars would pit almost every lap, others wouldn't pit at all, others would sit in the pits!!
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Sounds like a laugh. I never had that but at games dont do that anymore
 
Stune
TOCAs AI was good ill give ya that one. PGR2s was good but when you turned to up the platium it just tryed to ran and spin you off the track instead of race well
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that was the point. It was an arcade game with very strict challenges on platinum. The A.I. on hardest difficulty was out to make you fail your challenge. Basically, they employed any means nessessary to stay ahead of you, making the races very challenging. Challenging A.I. is good A.I., no?
 
The real problem with the AI is that they can't take turns well. They don't seem to know how to trail brake, and they can't threshold brake, so they brake really early, and then accelerate out and hit the apex (standard novice approach).

Then there's the problem that if they're in a faster car then you, they'll just ram into you on straights without you trying to block them, if you're on their racing line (not under braking at all).

Then there are cars that seem to always make the same mistake on the same turn lap after lap, the AI just doesn't know how take the particular turn with the particular car at all.
 
One thing that really bugs me is that Polyphony doesn't give statements on any of these subjects. I'd be really happy if they told us that they couldn't make the AI better for whatever reason. A lot of the criticism wouldn't appear if they stated why they made certain things the way they are. It's this unawareness that just drives me up the wall sometimes.

Cheers,
the Interceptor
 
kinigitt
that was the point. It was an arcade game with very strict challenges on platinum. The A.I. on hardest difficulty was out to make you fail your challenge. Basically, they employed any means nessessary to stay ahead of you, making the races very challenging. Challenging A.I. is good A.I., no?
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Challenging Ai is great when you want a challenge and of course thats what Platium and Gold levels were designed for but the more you play against the AI which rams you are bound to get pissed off sooner or later and do the same back. In fact on most of the street races that is the most effective way to complete them sucessfully. On a game that is based on driving well and with style this is engcuraging the opposite. At the level i compete at on xbox live on that game people would soon get pissed off i a started ramming all the time like the AI.
 
Stune
Challenging Ai is great when you want a challenge and of course thats what Platium and Gold levels were designed for but the more you play against the AI which rams you are bound to get pissed off sooner or later and do the same back. In fact on most of the street races that is the most effective way to complete them sucessfully. On a game that is based on driving well and with style this is engcuraging the opposite. At the level i compete at on xbox live on that game people would soon get pissed off i a started ramming all the time like the AI.
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It encourages stylish driving, but it can't enforce it. You're meant to race around the A.I., avoid them, because it's supposed to be a challenging arcade game. Sure, people can drive rough and get results, but the same could be said for GT3 (actually, more so, because the cars didn't slow down as much, they would just bump off each other without being upset).

The A.I. did it's job.
 
kinigitt
It encourages stylish driving, but it can't enforce it. You're meant to race around the A.I., avoid them, because it's supposed to be a challenging arcade game. Sure, people can drive rough and get results, but the same could be said for GT3 (actually, more so, because the cars didn't slow down as much, they would just bump off each other without being upset).

The A.I. did it's job.
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my point was when the AI drives ruthlessly and do anything to win sooner or later the human player will get pissed off and do the same and thats not what it should be all about
 
Stune
my point was when the AI drives ruthlessly and do anything to win sooner or later the human player will get pissed off and do the same and thats not what it should be all about
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I guess it depends on what kind of games people play. If you're used to arcade games, you're used to merciless instant deaths and failure, and you enjoy overcoming difficult stretches of gameplay. People that like to get gold licenses in GT know what I mean.

Gamers are too soft these days.
 
kinigitt
I guess it depends on what kind of games people play. If you're used to arcade games, you're used to merciless instant deaths and failure, and you enjoy overcoming difficult stretches of gameplay. People that like to get gold licenses in GT know what I mean.

Gamers are too soft these days.
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lol the last bit is funny.
 
I find it so interesting that people complain so freely about the AI. Just about every other racing game I can think of has poor AI and I actually think GT3 has one of the best. The last thing you want is an AI that can easily be scared into submission by taking agressive lines. And there's only so much you can expect out of their movement without them looking way too twitchy.
 
As in my review in the thread linked from here it had improved. Yes it still does silly things like bemani states, but recently I've had some good close races with the AI. I'm trying my hardest not to just ram them out of the way, but overtake cleanly, and once or twice they've actually moved off line to let me through. There seems to be a rule that if you are more than half way past they'll move over, otherwise they're going to stick to their line, if you're there or not.
I've still seen 2 AI cars fighting for the same bit of straight on the Fuji Speedway several times now, and it looks very silly. There's no need for that.
Also as bemani mentions, they do seem very afraid of corners, almost like they're trying to preserve their tyres. This means I end up with a car that can nail them on the corners, but loses out on the straights if I want to get good A-Spec points for a race. Which in some ways is good, but I'd rather have a race with them where I was close at all parts of the track.
Still I feel the race cleanly attitude is providing me with the maximum enjoyment. I've a new theory that if you ram them around too much in the corners, they'll give you a load back. However this will take a bit more studying from me.
Either way, it's still pretty clever to write some code that can drive any car at any track and still do pretty well. I wouldn't know where to start with something like that. Let's hope it's a big task for PD to improve for GT5 with the increased CPU power of the PS3 ;)
 
Eddy5
Either way, it's still pretty clever to write some code that can drive any car at any track and still do pretty well. I wouldn't know where to start with something like that.
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Don't know where to start with programming AI for a car simulation? Try taking at look at the Robot Auto Racing Simulator.

Description
RARS is the Robot Auto Racing Simulation, a competition for programmers and an on-going challenge for practicioners of Artificial Intelligence and real-time adaptive optimal control. It consists of a simulation of the physics of cars racing on a track, a graphic display of the race, and a separate control program (robot "driver") for each car. All RARS software and activities are free and open to the public.

Specifically I would suggest you start here:
Tutorial: Part 1

That should keep you busy for, aaahh, a fairly long time. Have fun!
 
Eddy5
Also as bemani mentions, they do seem very afraid of corners, almost like they're trying to preserve their tyres.
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The are VERY good at saving tires. But they just don’t know how to balance tire use with respect to pit windows. Instead of pitting in the last lap, they can definitely drive harder and pit earlier. That isn’t even complicated AI, that’s just a simple formula for calcuating your pit strategy ... You can definitely tell they only pit once they use up their tires, because 2 laps before they pit their times will be really slow, and also the next 1 or 2 laps after pitting, while they’re on cold tires.
 

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