The bastardization of Lexus's F brand

[SpartanG]

For GTPers in the United States, chances are you have recently seen the ad for the Lexus RX 350 F Sport. For those not in the states, it's basically the performance edition (new go-fast and look-fast parts) of Lexus's very popular RX suv.

Does anyone else find it funny that Lexus has already begun using the F brand on cars as a marketing tool before the brand even built up any sort of history? It brings to mind the recent "destruction" of BMW's M brand when they started applying it to things like the X5/6M and selling M parts on non-M cars. BMW's M used to be a division that made complete sports cars from BMW's base cars. Now it's just a parts bin of seats, wheels, suspension components, and body parts. Obviously the cars get a lot of behind-the-scenes things like rigidity components and special tuning and engines, but the brand (and BMW as a whole, lately) lost some of what it used to stand for, for sure.

Lexus basically stole this idea before they had even built up a reputation with the F badge. I guess it's alright, Lexus never had a reputation to lose. BMW did have an excellent reputation with the M brand, but they're starting to lose that.

so uh... Discuss? Am I just a ranting whining baby?

 

[Luminis]

Well, I don't really know about Lexus... What's the difference between putting an "S" for "Sport" on a car, or an "F" for "Fast"? I mean, there's a Cayenne S and whatnot...

And for BMW, from what I've heard, it didn't seem like they're ruining their reputation. The M3, 1M and M5, the most recent M cars, have received a lot pf praise, haven't they? The M badge might not be as exclusive as it may have been a while ago, but what's the big deal? It's not like you're buying an M car to go around saying: "Hey, look at me, I'm driving a BMW M and you guys don't!"

So, as long as the M cars are actually good, I don't really see a problem here.

 

[Blaze_409]

For GTPers in the United States, chances are you have recently seen the ad for the Lexus RX 350 F Sport. For those not in the states, it's basically the performance edition (new go-fast and look-fast parts) of Lexus's very popular RX suv.

Does anyone else find it funny that Lexus has already begun using the F brand on cars as a marketing tool before the brand even built up any sort of history? It brings to mind the recent "destruction" of BMW's M brand when they started applying it to things like the X5/6M and selling M parts on non-M cars. BMW's M used to be a division that made complete sports cars from BMW's base cars. Now it's just a parts bin of seats, wheels, suspension components, and body parts. Obviously the cars get a lot of behind-the-scenes things like rigidity components and special tuning and engines, but the brand (and BMW as a whole, lately) lost some of what it used to stand for, for sure.

Lexus basically stole this idea before they had even built up a reputation with the F badge. I guess it's alright, Lexus never had a reputation to lose. BMW did have an excellent reputation with the M brand, but they're starting to lose that.

so uh... Discuss? Am I just a ranting whining baby?

I disagree at the BMW remarks. What does M division building an X5M or X6M have to do with how they build the M3 or the M5? The M3 and M5 are not influenced by the X5 M and X6 M

What they are doing with the SUV's doesn't effect what an M3 is. Or how an M3 handles. An M3 will always be an M3.
M isn't a separate brand.

Similarly as long as they don't start putting RX 350 F chassis on an LS convertible I don't see what the problem is. Thats not changing what an LFA is.

 

[E28]

So, as long as the M cars are actually good, I don't really see a problem here.

This. So many people are going 'ZOMG, M-Diesels, WTF, etc, etc'. But when they are bloody brilliant diesels, that are fast and powerful, what's the problem? And I am a big fan of the old M-Cars (look at my username), but the new ones have to do a different task. They have to do different things. And when someone rants about the X6M, I simply respond with the F10 M5, or the E92 M3, or the 1M...

Every brand has done it. Audi started out saying there was only going to be 'one RS car at a time', but now new RS's are appearing every few weeks it seems like. Mercedes now allow you to get an 'AMG' 1.8 C-Class.

All Lexus are doing is exactly the same as the germans. Or any other company. That said, they can't really 'bastardise' the 'F-Brand', considering there isn't really one in the first place.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

I started to type up a lengthy response to this, but it just made me mad so I stopped. In a nutshell, 50 years from now people will look back at the X5M, the Cayenne Turbos, and the gastly RX-F, and think WHY? WHY did they try to make those things sporty? Especially in a time when oil was higher than ever? The reason is, because people will buy them. It's all marketing and status.

 

[Blaze_409]

talk about AMG "Black Series" A-class lol.
Audi RS1 e-tron estate quattro.
BMW sDrivei325d M.

names can get a bit silly.

I thought it was interesting that you called F a "brand."

 

[SpartanG]

It's all marketing and status.

This is what I was more or less trying to say. BMW is "selling out" its M brand, which used to stand for motorsports research, development, and achievement, to anyone who can write an 80k+ check to an SUV. I don't have as much of an issue with the new cars like the M5, 1M and M3 because they're still great cars. You can take them to the track and they're great performing cars. However, you can't take the M suv's to the track. SCCA and most driving schools don't allow SUVs of any kind. WTF is the purpose of a vehicle supposedly built with racing in mind if it isn't even allowed by many racing bodies? That's my problem with the whole thing. BMW evolved from making sports sedans and coupes to building luxury cars and trucks that have performance as an "extra".

And Lexus's F is the equivalent of BMW's M, so it is basically a subdivision of the main company. Lexus built the IS F and supercar LFA under the F moniker. You'd think they'd at least try to build a few more good cars before selling out but I guess not.

And yeah, I guess it really is true of many automakers now. So then why is this happening? Why are they selling out and ruining their rep (to those who care about it) now, after spending years building it up? I suppose its all in the name of stockholders now...

I guess you could just mark me up to another person complaining about BMW's recent moves away from what made me love them so much. The new stuff like turbos, fwd, etc etc just makes me miss the old cars even more.

 

[Eric.]

I don't think the X5m and X6m simply have "performance as an extra".

 

[Keef]

F Sport is an entire range of factory-built performance vehicles and optional performance accessories for many cars that Lexus sells. It's no different than M or AMG, both of which sell branded performance accessories and packages for various BMW and Mercedes cars.

 

[E28]

I kinda see it as a necessary evil. Because these SUVs are a revenue stream. People buy the Porsche Cayenne, and X5M. And the money from that will go to developing 911s, and M3s. It's the same with turbos. I'd rather sacrifice natural aspiration, than lose M-cars altogether...

 

[Luminis]

When was the last time you saw an M5 participate in a race, factory-backed by BMW? I can't recall the 1M being used as a race car, either.

BMW is currently using, what, the 320 TC Sedan in the WTCC, the M3 in ALMS, GT4 and DTM and the Z4 in GT3. So, basically, everything else the M GmbH comes up with is a sellout? And, well, two of those aren't even M cars to begin with...

 

[Pupik]

Let me state first that even as a bit of a Lexus fanboy, the RX Sport is essentially a silly badge job. If their customers really think they're now driving a "sports car", then they can enjoy the delusion while others giggle.

Does anyone else find it funny that Lexus has already begun using the F brand on cars as a marketing tool before the brand even built up any sort of history?

So 1989 isn't "historic" enough for you? Granted, in some ways it feels like yesterday, but it also was 23 years ago. That means the brand, while still much younger than BMW, Mercedes, Audi, still came about merely a year or two after AMG and M-badged cars hit the streets of the United States.

I don't like to make age a qualification for argument, but...really?

Lexus basically stole this idea before they had even built up a reputation with the F badge. I guess it's alright, Lexus never had a reputation to lose.

Okay, so why do you care? I mean, they used to have L-tuned editions, sort of like buying TRD parts for a Toyota. It just didn't say 'tard or turd, but they were pukka factory parts. And in that case, why not pick on the thousands of folks who plaster badges on their cars that did not come from the factory (pick nearly any manufacturer), and they can essentially buy just about any parts from a counter at any automobile dealership. The VIN will generally tell if the car is the real deal or not, the market isn't really affected.

I would like to see Lexus make a few limited-edition models with some real zest, not just some logos and slight trim changes. However, I think there's a limited market for that, since their core market is typically over the age of 50 and not as impressed with the supremely go-fast bits. Your typical Lexus driver is less apt to tearing up a racetrack on the weekends. They're luxury cars, after all...their main targets were Cadillac and Mercedes-Benz, and they've rarely pointed quivers at larger targets, save the IS lineup upon the 3-series.

The RX is their bread and butter, sells well, does everything it's supposed to okay, so I guess they're giving their buyers what they asked for; they're a rather responsive company in that regard.

BMW did have an excellent reputation with the M brand, but they're starting to lose that.

Not really. Sales are still pretty good at BMW.

 

[astrosdude91]

None of this will matter when the LS-F comes out. With it's screaming LFA V10.

 

[McLaren]

None of this will matter when the LS-F comes out. With it's screaming LFA V10.

Despite the prototype seen at the 'Ring, I'll have to believe it when I see it. There's just enough of a market for a 550Bhp V8 GS-F. I really don't know if Lexus has quite yet reached the mark to sell a car to rival the S63 AMG. Then again, if there's a model Lexus has that has been flawless, the LS would be it. But even BMW & Audi haven't built a performance-oriented, high luxury sedan that's like the S63.

 

[homeforsummer]

Discuss? Am I just a ranting whining baby?

Yes

Because:

F Sport is an entire range of factory-built performance vehicles and optional performance accessories for many cars that Lexus sells. It's no different than M or AMG, both of which sell branded performance accessories and packages for various BMW and Mercedes cars.

It's their badge, and they can do whatever the heck they like with it, essentially.

I've driven a few of the F-Sport models (CT 200h and GS 450h) and have absolutely no problem with them using the badge. Each gets visual tweaks of course (which work pretty well in my eyes) but they each also get suspension tweaks, and in the case of the GS, four-wheel steering. They're suitably different enough from the bog-standard models to justify some extra badging.

And if they want to bung it on an RX just so the rest of the range matches then that's also fine by me.

 

[SpartanG]

I don't think the X5m and X6m simply have "performance as an extra".

On a 2 and a half ton SUV with a ride height not much lower than my knees, I do think they are extras. Selling points. Nobody buys an SUV with even an inking of thought that they plan on tracking it. I'm just against the idea of a performance SUV to begin with I think, which is tangent to what's discussed here.

It's the same with turbos. I'd rather sacrifice natural aspiration, than lose M-cars altogether...

I don't think turbos are a bad thing, it's just not a part of what they've done for the past x years. Take Ferrari for example, they have stuck to their mantra that turbos are "cheating" and their engines are still world class. BMW prides itself on their superior engineering, so why can't they figure out how to get economy and performance without resorting to the blowers?

So 1989 isn't "historic" enough for you?

Okay, so why do you care?

I would like to see Lexus make a few limited-edition models with some real zest, not just some logos and slight trim changes. However, I think there's a limited market for that, since their core market is typically over the age of 50 and not as impressed with the supremely go-fast bits.


Not really. Sales are still pretty good at BMW.

I was referring to the F part of Lexus which was probably started in Toyota's short F1 run and churned out the ISF as their first road car.

And I care because I was hoping to see the F badge become a real sports car marquee, something that could really compete with the German power names. It could happen, I mean look how successful Lexus was at stealing sales from Merc in the 90s.

And sales are good, but the sales are going to people who aren't as in-tune with the car world. They buy it because its got a roundel on the hood and goes fast. I'm speaking more from personal experience here, I live in a well-off area and I see a fair number of higher end BMWs. the owners don't seem to know a damn thing about what they drive. BMW has essentially become the new Mercedes. It's a status thing instead of a car thing.

Yes

Because:



It's their badge, and they can do whatever the heck they like with it, essentially.

I've driven a few of the F-Sport models (CT 200h and GS 450h) and have absolutely no problem with them using the badge. Each gets visual tweaks of course (which work pretty well in my eyes) but they each also get suspension tweaks, and in the case of the GS, four-wheel steering. They're suitably different enough from the bog-standard models to justify some extra badging.

And if they want to bung it on an RX just so the rest of the range matches then that's also fine by me.

I suppose, but see above. It's just disappointing to me that they were so quick to make the badge meaningless to me.

 

[Joel]

Because they can sell more SUV's if they brand one with F Sport. The end. Also because nobody who wants to buy an IS F or M3 is going to change their mind because of an RX F Sport or X6M. I think this notion that car manufacturers need to aspire to some sort of "purity" is absurd. The bottom line is most of Lexus' and BMW's sales are from older guys who want a fashionable, and high quality car, and who may or may not care about performance.

 

[homeforsummer]

I suppose, but see above. It's just disappointing to me that they were so quick to make the badge meaningless to me.

Key words in bold there. What may be meaningless to you may not be meaningless to others. Slapping a few "F Sport" badges on RXs, GSs, LSs and CTs may not be the same as engineering an IS-F or LF-A, but then it's not stopping them making those models either.

And I can say, from personal experience, that the RX, GS and CT are all pretty good cars, F Sport trim or not.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Considering the badge hasn't been around for very long, using it to signify sportiness in any model is the complete oppsosite of bastardization. It's reinforcing and building the badge IMO.

 

[OtakuTaikun]

Isnt the "F-Sport" badge just designate a package someone can purchase? I mean theres an IS-F and an IS350 F-sport. If you want the crazy speed the F badge has tried to become synnonomous with, you buy the IS-F or any other purely F-branded car, not the F-sport package Lexus is offering a package for a younger audience. Sure its a marketing scheme per se, but their cars look damn sexy. You can buy STi hop ups for a WRX and M wheels for a 330i from the dealership so why is this new f-sport moniker being so weak? Opinions are just that and theres my 2 cents

 

[sumbrownkid]

I don't think turbos are a bad thing, it's just not a part of what they've done for the past x years. Take Ferrari for example, they have stuck to their mantra that turbos are "cheating" and their engines are still world class. BMW prides itself on their superior engineering, so why can't they figure out how to get economy and performance without resorting to the blowers?

I think BMW's using turbos for the now and future is a result of corporate fleet mileage standards and what not.

And I think Ferrari is gonna reintroduce turbo engines in the future.

 

[coolboy48]

Wasn't the turbo 'push' a measure to maintain or improve efficiency?

Anyways, not from the US but I find it interesting that the LS460 F-Sport RWD has a Torsen diff apart from the expected bits like the retuned auto.

 

[JAHHAJ]

It doesn't really matter it's still a badge symbolizing sports in the same way that M sport is a way of symbolizing the sportier BMW's.

 

[///M-Spec]

Does anyone else find it funny that Lexus has already begun using the F brand on cars as a marketing tool before the brand even built up any sort of history?

I think it is precisely because the F brand has so little history that this strategy works. You're don't break many expectations when there aren't many expectations to begin with. Besides, "F Sport" performs the same function as BMW's "M Sport" --a mid-way point between the mainstream offering and the full performance version. It's pretty obvious the marketing dept. at Lexus looked at what was working for BMW and then did the same thing.

Take Ferrari for example, they have stuck to their mantra that turbos are "cheating" and their engines are still world class. BMW prides itself on their superior engineering, so why can't they figure out how to get economy and performance without resorting to the blowers?

You are speaking as if this is something Ferrari has already "figured out". I'm not seeing it.

An Italia coupe weighs 3,325 lbs. and gets 12/17 MPG. The F10 M5, which makes about the same power but weighs 4,277 lbs. is expected to come in at 17/22 MPG. I think the fuel economy benefits of turbocharging is clearly seen here. The old NA E60 M5, FYI, came in at 12/18.

And I also think this is an apples to orange comparison to begin with. Most Ferrari owners could care less that their Italia gets 12 MPG. It is probably their 3rd or 4th car and not their daily driver. Whereas a sizable majority of M cars are used as dailies. They are different products and therefore cater to different expectations. And while M owners as a group are fairly affluent, Ferrari owners are simply in another league of wealth and fuel efficiency is a trivial concern for them.

That is why BMWs had to go to turbo and Ferrari can keep doing what they do.

BMW has essentially become the new Mercedes. It's a status thing instead of a car thing.

This is nothing new. BMW hasn't been a predominately enthusiast brand since the late '70s. The M cars were in fact created as an attempt to address this issue. But they too have caved into the pressures of going mainstream --though I would argue they did this in the '90s and certainly not as recently as 2010.


M

 

[McLaren]

I don't think turbos are a bad thing, it's just not a part of what they've done for the past x years. Take Ferrari for example, they have stuck to their mantra that turbos are "cheating" and their engines are still world class. BMW prides itself on their superior engineering, so why can't they figure out how to get economy and performance without resorting to the blowers?

Ferrari has never adopted that mantra & never will. Two of the greatest cars Ferrari has ever built have been twin-turbocharged.

 

[ShobThaBob]

This is nothing new. BMW hasn't been a predominately enthusiast brand since the late '70s. The M cars were in fact created as an attempt to address this issue. But they too have caved into the pressures of going mainstream --though I would argue they did this in the '90s and certainly not as recently as 2010.


M

It's a pity, too. BMW makes incredible platforms and really knows how to build cars and engines.

 

[///M-Spec]

It's a pity, too. BMW makes incredible platforms and really knows how to build cars and engines.

Don't get me wrong. Just because BMW does not primarily cater to the enthusiast market (and if you study their history, hasn't for most of it's existence) doesn't mean they haven't made some truly exceptional cars.

What BMW has been very good at doing is balancing their USP against growing their market share --not an easy thing to do given those goals are often at odds with each other. Their dominance has certainly waned in the past 10 years though, as other players have learned to cash in on the segment BMW more or less created. For us consumers, this is a good thing.

But every time a new BMW comes out, some one will always say "BMW is no longer ______" as if this was something that just happened yesterday. People always tend to view the past through rose colored glasses.


M

 

[MatskiMonk]

Lexus F has no reputation or tradition to either build upon or trade in yet. M, RS and AMG are pretty well established, I feel that Lexus attempts are more about cashing in on current trends than building something (a brand identity) that has any value.

But every time a new BMW comes out, some one will always say "BMW is no longer ______" as if this was something that just happened yesterday. People always tend to view the past through rose colored glasses.

This ×1000. It really peeves me when I see people say this. People seem to make up their own minds as to what the company should be, rather than look at the brands history and identity objectively.

 

[Tornado]

I'm still kind of confused about how Lexus could be bastardizing something no one cares about anyway. Other than some vague trickle-down relationship that they have going with the IS-F and LF-A, what value does the F brand actually hold?

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm still kind of confused about how Lexus could be bastardizing something no one cares about anyway. Other than some vague trickle-down relationship that they have going with the IS-F and LF-A, what value does the F brand actually hold?

Let's just back up for a moment...

Does anyone remember Lexus' TRD counterpart from the early '00s, "L-Tuned?" No, nobody does.

Everyone is looking to cash in on the additional sporting model thing. At the very least, it seems that the 'F-Sport' branding is no different than BMW's watered-down 'M-Sport' and Audi's 'S-Line' models. They get a few stylistic cues, perhaps a little more substance in the performance department. And that's about it. I don't really think there is anything wrong with that.

If there is anyone to feel bad for, it's Infiniti and their awkward approach to their high performance vehicles. On the one hand, we have the IPL performance line, which has only been fitted to one vehicle, the G37S Coupe. On the other, we have their new line that they're doing with Sebastian Vettel, which seems to be a ridiculously overdone FX50. Talk about awkward polarity.

We could go to the flip side, even. After GM flew a little too close to the sun with the SS badging on almost every Chevrolet model, they've reeled it back to the point where they are terrified to release a performance model outright. Instead, they dance around with different model numbers that make it confusing to people who may otherwise only identify with a single badge. So, while on the Cruze RS the badge means nothing, a Sonic RS actually gets legitimate sporting enhancements.