The current states of small hatches...

[Boz Mon]

Isnt there a new Fiat 500 out with a diesel engine? If there is, I would look into that 👍

 

[TopHat]

Uh, we actually do get the Yaris (just not the 4-door) & the Jazz/Fit here.

We're getting the 4 door Yaris this year.

 

[neanderthal]

bring the diesels and vws twin pulse engine

 

[YSSMAN]

Isnt there a new Fiat 500 out with a diesel engine? If there is, I would look into that 👍

I think its had a diesel since launch, but as we all known, its the petrol versions that get the blood boiling...

===

Its too bad the American companies aren't offering anything awesome in the hatch department. The Dodge Caliber has some nifty features, but otherwise, I know full-well to stay clear.

Unless...

But ONLY in SS form. Otherwise, meh, its only cool when its a panel truck.

 

[Sniffs]

america's still got a penchant for dissing hatches. I loved the stuff-ability of the only one I owned, a Camry 5 door, and the fact you could actually see out the back. the problem is, if it's not in the shape of an SUV, it's considered JUNK (q.v. Chevette, Omni/Horizon, J2000 [sorry, Canada!] ). even beamer had to "sedanize" the 1's to get americans to buy.

a hatch would be handy in my current job and for ANY hauling I have to do, without the oversized/underpowered rep that goes with Minivans (on top of the soccer-mom stigma), the gas hog rep of SUV's, the even hoggier rep of pickups, and the lack and rep of wagons/estates.

the swift has a POS rep, new model or not.

 

[homeforsummer]

Its too bad the American companies aren't offering anything awesome in the hatch department. The Dodge Caliber has some nifty features, but otherwise, I know full-well to stay clear.

Unless...

*pic*

But ONLY in SS form. Otherwise, meh, its only cool when its a panel truck.

The HHR isn't exactly a rival for the hatches on page one though is it Does make a cool panel van though. I always thought it was a shame Chrysler never released the panel van version of the PT Cruiser. I actually quite like the PT, did about 1500 miles in one in the States last year and I was quite impressed. I haven't driven the Caliber (at the rental place I had the option but by the time I got to the car park they'd all been taken so I took a PT instead) but they look interesting.

I doubt many US manufacturers will dip into the compact hatchback market (B-segment in Europe) until they really see the market in the States heading in that direction. If they begin building smaller cars, then maybe even Europe will get some American hatches.

 

[YSSMAN]

Ford is supposed to offer the hatch versions of the Fiesta and the Euro Focus when those arrive in the next year or so, so that will make up for our lack of American hatchbacks. That being said, however, the previous iterations of the Focus in which they offered a hatchback in the US did sell rather well at the time. As a matter of fact, I think its what spurred so many of the Japanese companies to start offering hatchbacks of their own.

 

[stumpydino]

small hatches are great for city driving, small journeys etc. and can be quite fun to drive but id never have one. iv driven a ka and a corsa, and been passenger in a nova and starlet oh and a micra but in all of them they dont feel safe, like any gust of wind would send it toppling and the measly engine challenged by the slightest of hills, not to mention the nerve wracking wobbly attempts at speeds over 60 (eventually) for what they are made to do, minor things i guess they are useful but with the kind of long distances and motorway driving i demand i like something that at least feels like it can stay on the road at decent speed

 

[bennyrrr]

Joey, im pretty sure id buy a Brera too, especially after seeing them in person in europe, but for now?

Mini Cooper FTW (S after a clean wash and wax

 

[Slicks]

I think I'd prefer an R53 Cooper S to any of those posted above (Rather than the puffy-looking R56 that we've got now).

That said, the Fiat looks okay, and I'd take any Alfa they sent my way.

 

[homeforsummer]

I think I'd prefer an R53 Cooper S to any of those posted above (Rather than the puffy-looking R56 that we've got now).

I agree, you mean the previous shape Cooper S? The normal Cooper looked even better, because the bonnet line was lower without the air scoop. Looked best as the Works tuned version with the official body kit.

That said, the new Works S looks pretty good:

 

[Joey D]

I agree the R56 MINI's look goofy, but at the same time it gives the car character sort of. I agree the new JCW MINI's look fairly good and at least you can get the aero kit put on the just-a-Cooper or the Cooper S.

 

[NLxAROSA]

small hatches are great for city driving, small journeys etc. and can be quite fun to drive but id never have one. iv driven a ka and a corsa, and been passenger in a nova and starlet oh and a micra but in all of them they dont feel safe, like any gust of wind would send it toppling and the measly engine challenged by the slightest of hills, not to mention the nerve wracking wobbly attempts at speeds over 60 (eventually) for what they are made to do, minor things i guess they are useful but with the kind of long distances and motorway driving i demand i like something that at least feels like it can stay on the road at decent speed

If you're talking about the Ka, you're absolutely right. But that's actually a lower class than a Corsa/Polo/Mini/etc. I've driven a Séat Ibiza 1.9 TDI/130BHP at 200kmh (125 mph) and it was doing just fine, not bothered by wind at all. Same for a Polo GTI. Sure, they're not anything like my Z, but still a very fun (and safe) car to drive. And I bet the same applies to a Mini Cooper S, Corsa OPC or other fast hb. They're in a way different league than the cars you speak of. Can't wait to get my hands on an Abarth 500 or Alfa Mito though, they seem to be very fun cars indeed. 👍

 

[homeforsummer]

If you're talking about the Ka, you're absolutely right. But that's actually a lower class than a Corsa/Polo/Mini/etc. I've driven a Séat Ibiza 1.9 TDI/130BHP at 200kmh (125 mph) and it was doing just fine, not bothered by wind at all. Same for a Polo GTI. Sure, they're not anything like my Z, but still a very fun (and safe) car to drive. And I bet the same applies to a Mini Cooper S, Corsa OPC or other fast hb. They're in a way different league than the cars you speak of. Can't wait to get my hands on an Abarth 500 or Alfa Mito though, they seem to be very fun cars indeed. 👍

To be honest, not even the Ka feels scary at speed. It all depends on what you're used to. If you're American and used to big cars, then coming to Europe to find everyone doing 80mph in small cars is gonna be a bit scary, and being in one even more so. If you've only driven small cars, then it isn't an issue. I cruise at 80 in my Fiesta and I don't feel like it's gonna fall over all the time, even in high winds or bad weather.

 

[Tornado]

Wait, how? Wiki didn't shine any light on it except for showing that the Fit got better press here than I realised.

Bigger engine, stiffer suspension.

 

[Moglet]

I'm in love with the Swift Sport at the minute. A friend of mine just bought one in silver and I love the way it looks, both inside and out. Value for money wise it's probably the best warm hatch out there, plus they're still fairly exclusive!

I'm hoping to get one in black in a few months' time when the insurance on my Astra runs out. The standard model looks a bit tepid IMO though, the wheels are too small for a start! It looks a bit...'goofy'. At least the Sport sorts that out with bigger wheels and smarter bodywork.

 

[niky]

The Polo is too old, the Yaris and Jazz too boring, the Peugeot and Clio too ugly (apart from the Clio 197)... I like the Swift and Punto though.

To call the Jazz boring means that you haven't driven a 1.5 Jazz (or even a 1.3 or 1.4 one) down a mountainside any time in the past two years. Terrific balance, that little car. Drives like an electric go-kart. The Yaris could be nearly as much fun... but the suspension tuning and even worse steering just kill it for me.

The Swift is really nice, much better steering than either, but it's utterly impractical, with no rear seat space to speak of.

A secondhand manual tranny Honda Jazz is on my list of toys to buy in two or three years. I'd love to get this one I drove a few months back... HKS turbocharger (makes about 200 bhp), Wilwood brakes, Tein suspension. Fun, fun... fun little car. But, obviously, the owner wants quite a bit for it, since all his mods are top-drawer.

I've driven two reaaaaally small hatches over the past few months. Th Suzuki/Maruti Alto and the Chery QQ3.

Both horrible, horrible little cars... but hey... half the car, half the engine, twice the fuel economy of a sedan... guess it'd work if you really wanted it to... Well, actually, the interior of the QQ was actually quite respectable, and the 1.1 liter engine had some punch (well... at least up to 40 mph... after which it takes forever to get to 60...) but I'd rather pay more for gas than get one of these.

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But as for the main question... how do we improve small cars? Well... the Honda Fit/Jazz, as previously stated, already does so much of what you want a full-sized car to do. It has great headroom and legroom, it handles well, accelerates well and gets great economy. And the sedan version, though pretty ugly, has a godawfully large trunk... 500 liters! Much bigger than the Civic's!. Beauty? It's in the eye of the beholder... and, as you can see with the Fiat 500 and Mini, it's possible to make small cars pretty.

Crash safety? Considering your chances of surviving a crash in a Fit or Yaris are considerably better than in some full-sized pickups, that's not as big an issue as some people choose to believe. It's not overall weight that provides crash safety, but the amount of stiffening put into crash structures. To tell you how stiff these babies are, they have actually put on some weight due to crash strengthening. A Honda Fit tips the scales at one ton... some 400-500 pounds heavier than a comparable small car from ten years ago.

The only things missing from most small cars is bump isolation and insulation... but then, to add more of either will take away from their merits... namely lightness and spriteliness.

Oh... and maybe more power. A 150 hp turbocharged 1 liter engine, IMHO, would be just about perfect...

 

[YSSMAN]

Oh... and maybe more power. A 150 hp turbocharged 1 liter engine, IMHO, would be just about perfect...

Odd, because we're just about to start receiving 140 BHP 1.4L units from GM next year...

Nevertheless, I agree. I think the more often we see companies spending money on the segment, the better the cars are going to get. Its becoming plainly obvious that it is critical to have a good car around the Fiesta/Focus levels of size, and with Ford bringing the proper benchmarks to the US, I think its a good sign that the game is changing here.

I personally still benchmark with the Honda Fit Sport and the Mazda3, but those are just my tastes in action.

 

[homeforsummer]

To call the Jazz boring means that you haven't driven a 1.5 Jazz (or even a 1.3 or 1.4 one) down a mountainside any time in the past two years

You're right, I haven't (I might like to push one off a mountainside however ). But I honestly don't care if I never drive one, nothing about them tempts me to. It looks like a mini MPV, and it has nothing to attract me to the design. and that's enough to put me off. That's what I meant about "boring". There are half a dozen cars in it's class I'd want to drive before it.

Maybe in the US or the rest of the world it's the best thing since sliced bread but in Europe we're spoiled for choice by great looking and driving small cars, and we have been for decades.

 

[Tornado]

Oh... and maybe more power. A 150 hp turbocharged 1 liter engine, IMHO, would be just about perfect...

Honda could call it the Turbo II.

 

[YSSMAN]

Maybe in the US or the rest of the world it's the best thing since sliced bread but in Europe we're spoiled for choice by great looking and driving small cars, and we have been for decades.

Well, at least they managed to make ours look a bit more "exciting." They've got some creative advertising to go with it as well. It worked so well that in the first two years of sales, people were paying as much as $5,000 over sticker for them.

Nowadays you can get ahold of them for what they're worth, a little less than $16,000 for a Fit Sport (shown). Considering that the only other "good" option at that price is in fact the VW Rabbit 2.5S (Golf V), it comes down to what kind of drive you prefer... And gas mileage. And in that fight, gas mileage and the funky nature of the Fit wins out.

We're getting more good stuff, but I think there are a few unsung heros in the US market:

Just for being cheap and fun to drive, they get a participation prize.

 

[Jondot]

Hello, 'planeteers!

I thought it was worth a new thread to appreciate the absolutely brilliant state of the european mid-hatchback market. With the latest generation of hatchbacks, the choice between them is harder than ever. I know this could be a boring subject for many, but it's actually quicker to name the bad hatchbacks at the moment, rather than the good ones, which hasn't always been the case!

I'm keen to hear what you guys think to the current market, and what, if anything (never thought I'd say that!) could improve the current crop?

Also, which do you guys feel is the best and why?

👍 Although the price and the insurance group of the Cooper is a little scary.

👍 Great, cheap, great to look at, fun to drive.

Hmmm, not so much. I'm not a fan, I think it's a bland little car really.

👍 love the Clio.

Nope... Too fat, too expensive. Atleast it's pretty though.

👍 Gorgeous, fun, small, cheap. I want.

Very capable, attractive, and rather spacious.

No, no, no, no, no. Expensive, no personality, not particularly attractive, ultimately forgettable. Nice build quality, though.

Not a fan. Never have liked the Yaris, don't really know why.

👍 Interior is a bit... Vauxhallish, but still interesting.

👍 In need of a replacement, but still an interesting prospect.

Well... I wouldn't buy one, but I like the clever interior.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Nope... Too fat, too expensive. Atleast it's pretty though

Ugly yes, but to like the new Clio which appears HUUUUGGGEEE and call this fat!?Is the Clio much smaller than a Hummer?

 

[Tornado]

Atleast it's pretty though.

 

[homeforsummer]

Just for being cheap and fun to drive, they get a participation prize.

Kia Rio? You guys REALLY need the C'eed. The Rio is one of those "worthy but forgettable in every respect" cars in the UK. I can see how in the States it might be more fun than other cars of it's size but in Europe it's comprehensively outhandled by everything. Including the C'eed, which is actually a very, very good car. Admittedly slightly bigger than the Rio, and it does make me intrigued for the next Kia small car whenever that is released.

I don't mind the Rio, in fact I have a lot of respect for Kia (I always support the underdogs) but it's surprising to my ears to hear it's considered fun!

The SX4 is good though. I've seen you guys get a sedan version of it, which looks pretty nice. In Europe Fiat sell the car too as the Fiat Sedici with the 4x4 drivetrain.

You and me both. The 207 is a styling disaster. All current Peugeots are. That's what happens when they're all designed in house, compared to the Pininfarina designed 205/106/206/306/406/607

 

[Jondot]

Ugly yes

Fair point...

...well made, but it's sort of attractive from the side.

...ish. Or not.

but to like the new Clio which appears HUUUUGGGEEE and call this fat!?Is the Clio much smaller than a Hummer?

I don't think the clio looks that fat. It's got a fairly small nose in comparison to the giant hulk of the
207. Maybe it's just me imagining it, I dunno, but I always thought the clio atleast looked more petit.

Yeah, I might have imagined it... a bit.

 

[ExigeEvan]

It gets away with it in that photo, but on the road it's soemthing else. Such a huge growth since the previous generation. More so than either the Corsa, maybe equal to the Fiesta however. But I'd say the Fiesta has hid it far better.

 

[Jondot]

I think fat is the wrong word. I meant more sort of, bulbous. They're all pretty 'fat' as such when I think about it. Particularly the Punto, actually.

 

[niky]

Honda could call it the Turbo II.

Oh Lord... cargasm!

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RE: looks of the Fit... well, that's the polarizing point on any Honda... Honda designs, for me... are slow-cookers. Hate them at first, learn to accept them... then learn to like the car underneath despite the design.

I couldn't care less if the Fit looks like a dumpy breadbox... for me, it's a near-perfect execution of car-minimum, man-maximum.

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RE: Kia Rio: terrible little car. But pretty good for what it costs. I don't know if you can call it drifting if you're going mostly nose first, but drifting six lanes wide at a speed where my regular car wouldn't even twitch... that's fun...

 

[Revolution.]

No love for the Mitsubishi Colt?

In 3 door form its not a bad looking thing at all, although I can't comment on how it drives or performs.
I have, however driven the Ralliart version with the 113kw (about 150hp or thereabouts) turbocharged motor, it is surprisingly good. And those Recaro seats pulled from the Evo are godly.