The DFP...Can it help you obtain a REAL drivers license?

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I bought my DFP 2 days after GT4 came out, and I always wondered, can it REALLY help you learn how to drive a real car? I have a friend who owns a Mitsubishi Eclipse, and he had a steering wheel for GT3, (not the DFP) and he told me how it helped him learn how to drive in real life. heh, Im 22 years old, and I still dont know how to drive a real car.
When I play GT4 with the DFP, I drive kind of well, but not perfect. So I was thinking maybe I can progress the same with a real steering wheel.

So..... I would like to hear some of your opinions, can it be the first step learning how to drive a real car?
 
I think your instructor won't really appreciate your racing efforts :p

I was more kind of wondering if it would be a good preparation for obtaining your RL race licention??? What do you people think??
 
Well I learned how to drive about 2 years ago, which of course was before GT4 and the DFP were available, so I cant really give you a great answer, but....

I think GT3 with the old GT Force wheel would be fairly useless at teaching you how to drive a real car, as there is no 900 degree and the feedback is nothing like a real car steering wheel, on the other hand I think GT4 and the new DFP could at least teach you the basics of how to drive. The feedback on the wheel isnt exactly the same as a real car, but its very close. The only problem I have with comparing the DFP and a real car is that the DFP wheel itself is far too small, even on top end sports cars the wheel is not that small. Also the way the wheel feeds back through your hand after a sharp turn is not quite there with the DFP, if you can drive you should know what I mean. But other than that the DFP seems to feel just like the real thing.

Of course you need to remember a couple of big problems when comparing the two. First of which is there is no clutch on the DFP, so unless your gonna learn in an automatic your gonna miss alot of the 'real' driving technique. The other thing is that when your playing GT4, your looking at a TV screen sitting somwhere infront of you, you dont get any views of what are around you like you would in a real car, or any g-forces which naturaly occur when accelerating/braking/turning etc, which i think is where you loose most of the feel of real driving.

My friend who can drive in real life is aweful at using my DFP on GT4, but then me and my brother who can also both drive, have no problems using the DFP what so ever. Fair do that it takes a little while to get used to it, say 30mins, but that was it.

My advise is get some driving lessons and see what you think :)
 
..not at all.. lol

it might make you worse actually, because your correcting every move little by little to make it perfect; i do the same on live for speed with my momo, now i've been trying to get to my normal driving habbits.. slown down, but i havent really raced for first place anymore, just been drifting in that game mostly

and always remember.. right foot.. ONLY (unless its a manual car) no left foot braking ;)
 
The only good thing that might come from it is the knowing of when to shift gears.
 
Driving in a racing game like GT4 is beneficial to RL driving.

+It will make you a more alert driver edit: on second thought, scratch this
+Better reaction times
+Better hand-eye corrdination
+for the most part, better emergency menuver control
+it taught me to draft to save gas on the highways

But for the most part, GT4 wont help you drive, only expirence will.
 
Well it will help you a lot more then a ds2 will. 22 and cant drive? What the heck happened? meh...i'm just bein' nosey...nevermind. ;)
 
too cold
Well it will help you a lot more then a ds2 will. 22 and cant drive? What the heck happened? meh...i'm just bein' nosey...nevermind. ;)



Hey. I`m 29 and I dont drive im real life. took lessons and got quite far but lost interest in it.
 
I wouldn't compare driving with the DFP in GT4 to real life driving. There's just too many things missing in video game driving, as mentioned before, such as g-forces and the clutch.

Don't worry too much about learning to drive with the DFP. You'll catch on pretty quick when it comes to real driving.
 
eVox
Driving in a racing game like GT4 is beneficial to RL driving.

+It will make you a more alert driver
+Better reaction times
+Better hand-eye corrdination
+for the most part, better emergency menuver control
+it taught me to draft to save gas on the highways

But for the most part, GT4 wont help you drive, only expirence will.
you draft on highways? i hope GT4 also teaches you how to avoid hitting the traffic in front of you if something happens...
you should not drive so close behind other cars at high speeds...



racing sims can help you to master situations that you usually don't train in driving school, like when your car starts to spin. but even GT4 with the DFP hardly helps you to drive through traffic.
i drove for years in games with a wheel before i started training for my license, but the real driving was a totally different experience. the driving itself is much less of a problem compared to all the rules and signs you have to obey. mirror, indicator, watching, speed limits, right of way and all that stuff isn't thaught in GT4.
 
No, I don't think the DFP will help real life driving. If you notice, the DFP is very unrealistic at low speeds (10-20 km/h). It takes way too much effort to turn. Even on a car without power steering, doing a 3 point turn should not take that much effort. I notice this everytime I spin out... :dopey:

The right foot only braking rule is important is so you don't drag on your brakes. If you hover your left foot over the brake pedal, you'll get tired after a while, and then you'll unconsciously rest your left foot on the brake, thereby dragging the brakes and possibly overheating them. If you rest your left foot beside the brake pedal, and move it over to the brake pedal when you need to stop, then why not just use your right foot to brake?

GT4 driving only teaches you how to handle your car at its extreme limit... and I sure hope you're not driving your car to the limit everytime you take it out for a spin...
 
No, not really. Before I got my license, I used a driver's ed program with wheel on PC and it taught laws good, but that was about it. Only way to learn to drive a real car is to do it. And just driving around is easy, just take a class to know laws and courtesy well. If you ever want to get into racing, definitely take some classes for it.
 
I don't think driving with the DFP helps me in real life. When I step into a car, it's always a shock to see how big the steering wheel is! And as been said before, I notice that I'm constantly correcting my moves.
I don't know if this is the same at a racetrack, though. I'd like to try it sometimes...
 
orubasarot
Also why is that right foot-only braking rule so important? I use both feet with the DFP for quicker response, and it's so much more comfortable than using heel-toe. I think I would be coordinated enough not to press both at the same time on accident, or is there some other reason?

agreed... but if you want to get your license during the test.. dont do it
 
Mr. Mika
I don't know if this is the same at a racetrack, though. I'd like to try it sometimes...
Not really (based on auto-x experience, drag strip, and having fun on mountain roads). It'll be a long time, if ever, that a game really can translate directly to real life. Sure, it's somewhat realistic. In a car it's different though, think about feeling the g-forces, not just looking at a flat screen, sounds, different shifting, a lot more. I can play gt4, think about 20 other things, and drink a coke all at the same time. I don't do that when pushing my real car though.
 
VyPeR
So..... I would like to hear some of your opinions, can it be the first step learning how to drive a real car?

Yesterday, after driving GT4 with my DF wheel almost all day, my wife said "let's go out to eat". So I got in the car and drove off... Noticed a couple things. One, you want to keep racing... bad idea, especially if you use the "lean on the other car" mode of cornering. :) Second you almost never find a place on real roads to use wide open throttle and max brakes... Third there is a lot more going on around you that you don't see in the game, mostly from things you are not looking at directly.

Can you learn from using the wheel? Somewhat, but you will be picking up a lot of bad habits as well. Try this. Take a slower car and drive the whole Sarte course at max 70 mph. That is real driving. Boring, isn't it? :yuck:
 
Kremithefrog
Not really (based on auto-x experience, drag strip, and having fun on mountain roads). It'll be a long time, if ever, that a game really can translate directly to real life. Sure, it's somewhat realistic. In a car it's different though, think about feeling the g-forces, not just looking at a flat screen, sounds, different shifting, a lot more. I can play gt4, think about 20 other things, and drink a coke all at the same time. I don't do that when pushing my real car though.


Haha, yeah. I know what you mean. You're right. When I'm doing 200 MPH at the long straight at the Ring in real life, I'm NOT going to scratch my head, drink some coke or talk to a friend. And the bumps only hurt the grip of my tires, not my entire body...
 
eVox
Driving in a racing game like GT4 is beneficial to RL driving.

+It will make you a more alert driver
+Better reaction times
+Better hand-eye corrdination
+for the most part, better emergency menuver control
+it taught me to draft to save gas on the highways

But for the most part, GT4 wont help you drive, only expirence will.

Would that make you a tailgater then? Not a good habit to have period. More alert? No some people just aren't alert and attentive no matter how many games they play. In fact over confidence on the road from a video game is a bad thing. Personally I think it is more likely to make a wreckless or unsafe driver out of most, but not all.

Real life driving comes from the mental ability of the individual behind the wheel. No video game can ever replicate this fully. Your brain will always be aware no matter how hard you try to fool it, that you are in front of T.V. and you're not really moving. These games are fun but they are no teacher for REAL world driving technique.
 
Hi there,

I am 15 and I can't wait until I'm 17 and can try my hand at real driving :dopey:
About eVox drafting - you don't have to be that close to the car infront to be in his draft. The hole a car punches in the air goes back quite a bit, but I still wouldn't suggest drafting on the motorway ( or freeway etc. in others countries).

I think that a DFP would very very slightly improve your road driving. But then again I am not the person to ask...

Bye all.
 
I dont mean to hijack a thread at all but I just wanna explain what i meant about highway drafting...

Basically it involves keeping the minimum 4 second safety gap between cars (not tailgating), but choosing to drive behind cars instead of a wide open lane. Even if a car is far ahead of you, it still does a good job of breaking up the air (as beardos said), noticible by a decreased amount of wind noise when following someone (scientific i know...)

As to what Velocity said:
I should have said it may make you more alert, but alertness has to do with so many other things.
 
eVox
I dont mean to hijack a thread at all but I just wanna explain what i meant about highway drafting...

Basically it involves keeping the minimum 4 second safety gap between cars (not tailgating), but choosing to drive behind cars instead of a wide open lane. Even if a car is far ahead of you, it still does a good job of breaking up the air (as beardos said), noticible by a decreased amount of wind noise when following someone (scientific i know...)

As to what Velocity said:
I should have said it may make you more alert, but alertness has to do with so many other things.

I wasn't comin' down on you or anything, it was just the way it came across.
I've been a bit testy today (@work) so I probably sounded more agressive than I meant.
 
sorry i misread....I didn't meant the DFP actually....I meant GT4's physics action. I know how to drive I have my license for almost two years now and know the mental and physical difference in playing GT4 or RL. I was just thinking that there's something to learn from for example the license tests or the coffeebreak maneuvring trough the cones. I was just wondering if I'm the only one who sees this game as theoricital info. Of course the learning curve for RL racing is totally different, more like totally learning it from the start. Ít's not like that playing GT4 will make you a good driver if you never driven before....but combining the GT4 experience and real life racing, I think there's a lot to be learned from in this game....that and understanding the tuning concept...I mean everyone acknowledged this fact now all of a sudden everone just acts like the game is all unrealistic? I was just thinking for the people with track experience, can GT really help in experimenting driving techniques and such? Or is it all just really advertising crap?
 
gran turismo helped me become a better driver, ON THE RACETRACK. i take my real car in hillclimbs, and using what i've learnt from gran turismo i can make much better race lines than i could before i started playing GT. the track i race on isn't very much like any track on gt, but you can apply turning theory to any corner

as for real life applications, i would say the only thing gt4 can teach you is understeer - mainly braking and that you need to slow down to take corners when travelling at high speed

if you own a gran turismo car (and several of my friends do) they say the cars react almost exactly the same as their own cars, but that's something you learn from being in the car then watching what the game does. not vice versa

oh, and showy oversteer in gt is nothing like real life. try and get sideways and drift in a skyline with HICAS all wheel steer, it's not cool. the game also assumes perfect weight balance left to right, whereas in most cars, the driver is over one side so the car will get broad even when you spin both wheels off the line. gt doesn't do this
 
Quite frankly, I think driving on a real track in a real car is actually EASIER than doing the same thing in GT4. That, of course, is assuming you have already driven on a road course, closed circuit track, or autocross course in real life, preferably a number of times. You cannot use GT4 alone to learn how to drive, however, because you'll probably develop habits that would not help you or be particularly safe to use in the real world, and you'll also be unfamiliar with the variety of sensory information so critical to a real world driver's technique and response that is not given to you through a 2D video screen.

In this sense, I think real world driving experience will help you more in GT4 (once you get used to the DFP) than vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, the basic techniques are the same. And I was absolutely thrilled when I first took the M3 (closest GT4 equivalent to my real world car) out for a spin on Laguna Seca in GT4 and felt the DFP respond like a real steering wheel/car would when losing traction on the front wheels.

I will say this, in regards GT4's physics engine: it is the best driving-style video game physics engine that I personally have experienced yet. The braking characteristics, tire physics, and ESPECIALLY weight transfer effects are getting remarkably close to mimicking the real thing. So in that sense, you can learn some driving techniques with GT4 and a wheel. I found that after playing GT4, my natural reaction in-game to losing drive wheel traction on a powerful RWD car (as a result of excessive throttle application) was the same as it was in real life, and in both cases the cars would respond the same way. It CAN be a useful learning tool if it's limitations are understood and the student does not develop bad habits through it.

However, you have a number of disadvantages in GT4 which do not exist in real life.

1.) As good as the DFP is, the controls still have a way to go. The lack of a clutch and H-pattern shifter are one obviously glaring flaw (the shifter controls on the DFP are more akin to something you would find in a car with a sequential gearbox - M3, M5, Ferrari 360, Toyota MR2, or most race cars - or even a shiftable automatic). The pedals have no feel or feedback whatsoever (granted, this is compared to my 3 series, which has a VERY tight throttle and VERY tight brakes...my other car, the daily driver Acura, has a loose disconnected feeling similar to that of the DFP), and the placement is too simplified to be realistic, at least if you were to attempt a heel-toe/ball-edge downshift (which isn't even necessary without a clutch pedal anyway).

The wheel itself is too small, though I do think the steering feel is nicely weighted and surprisingly responsive, especially for a relatively inexpensive $150-odd device. The force feedback is also very good, though it's sort of a compromise because most cars would never give you that sort of feedback through the wheel (though you would likely feel it from the chassis itself). It's fairly obvious that the bulk of Logitech's engineering work and production efforts went into the wheel mechanism itself, the pedals and shifter controls are mostly an afterthought.

There is one major problem, size aside: turning the wheel through it's full 900 degree motion usually feels very awkward and unrealistic. In both of my cars, the power steering effort is increased as the driver turns closer towards lock, to aid the driver in the application of rapid steering changes. This also helps the driver to know where the wheel's center point is by feel alone. With the DFP, this only seems to occur if you break traction entirely on the FRONT wheels. And the small diameter of the wheel makes it difficult to turn the wheel hand-over-hand as you would in real life.

The end result is that effective countersteering is very difficult to do, because you'll either overcompensate or undercompensate, and then returning to center is almost impossible to do by feel, either. This, I think, is where the majority of complaints are coming from re: how difficult it is to drift in GT4. Using the DSP controller, however, I had no problems getting cars to initate controllable four wheel slides that would do so normally in real life (provided I was using the more realistic N2/N3 tires - and, contrary to popular belief, very few real cars are easily driftable in stock form).

2.) You also lack the sensory feedback and depth perception that you have in a real car, which makes a tremendous difference in how you must judge braking distances and cornering speeds. In GT4, at first, I tried to brake as I would in real life: by looking ahead to the corner and it's apex (if visible). I rarely use the distance markers in real life. You simply cannot do this successfully in GT4 with any sort of consistency. Because the sense of speed is not the same (again, this is due ENTIRELY to depth perception) and because you cannot judge distance easily by staring into the 2D image on screen, the only way to learn braking distances in GT4 is to memorize them track by track OR use the distance markers on the side of the track. The same applies to cornering speeds.

Also, I can't feel the car sliding out from under me in GT4, so I must watch the speedo and memorize the visual feedback from the screen through each corner in order to make that turn consistently as I might in a real car. You wouldn't even think to do this in real life. The only other sensory cue to your state of traction in-game is tire squeal. Fortunate that all of GT4's tire models give early warning and have very similar break-away characteristics...which is not always the case with real tires.

If GT4 gives you, the driver, one critical advantage, it's that the lack of a sense of speed and danger will encourage you to push the limits more than you probably would in real life. You cannot wreck your $35,000 car in GT4 (even if you could, buying a new one, especially in the latter stages of the game, would be a small concern at best), nor can you die or be paralyzed from the waist down just because you wanted to improve your already-fast time through that 90 mph chicane. :)
 
chameleon
I think your instructor won't really appreciate your racing efforts :p

I was more kind of wondering if it would be a good preparation for obtaining your RL race licention??? What do you people think??
What I learned in GT3 about lines and such came in real handy when I went carting with my uncle, his company had booked the track and there was an awesome competition. I ended up getting the award for best under 18 and qualified for the overally final but finished in the middle. My weight advantage didnt make up for never having driven a go-kart before.
 
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