The EU

  • Thread starter KSaiyu
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I prefer the situation we had up until the nineties; own currency and fixed borders. Sadly we'll never revert to that and it would be too late as the prices skyrocketed because of the euro anyway.
 

Throwing out Greece is the only option in my opinion. It's a barrel with no end whatsoever. At first they had trouble getting up, and now that we have options to fix their problems at least temporarely, they play the risky card of finding loopholes to postpone the payments that are LOOOOOOOONG overdue even further. How can you possibly be able to justify keeping a country in the euro zone when it plays like that even though we have poured billions of euros into their economy? The only problem is, that this should've happened much earlier, which would've reduced the costs for us tax payers and the overall damage to the euro zone.

I prefer the situation we had up until the nineties; own currency and fixed borders. Sadly we'll never revert to that and it would be too late as the prices skyrocketed because of the euro anyway.

That however would put us at a big disadvantage in terms of exporting and importing goods, which is why "our" countries went relatively well through our latest crisis. I think it's easy or rather too easy to blame a currency for the stuff that has been going on for the last 5 years, when our politicians and the ECB are the reason why we still have problems with Greece.
 
Throwing out Greece is the only option in my opinion. It's a barrel with no end whatsoever. At first they had trouble getting up, and now that we have options to fix their problems at least temporarely, they play the risky card of finding loopholes to postpone the payments that are LOOOOOOOONG overdue even further. How can you possibly be able to justify keeping a country in the euro zone when it plays like that even though we have poured billions of euros into their economy? The only problem is, that this should've happened much earlier, which would've reduced the costs for us tax payers and the overall damage to the euro zone.
Just imagine if the rest of Europe (Greece included) had taken that same view with Germany at the end of WW2?
 
That however would put us at a big disadvantage in terms of exporting and importing goods, which is why "our" countries went relatively well through our latest crisis. I think it's easy or rather too easy to blame a currency for the stuff that has been going on for the last 5 years, when our politicians and the ECB are the reason why we still have problems with Greece.
I'm sure there would be ways to make the import/export of goods easier even with fixed borders. Anyhow it's too late now, prices went up because of the Euro, wages stayed more or less the same, tons of jobs moved towards the east because of cheap labor and countries have more immigration to deal with too.
 
What are you referring to?
I'm simply giving an example of a country that faced massive debt problems, a collapsed infrastructure, massive levels of unemployment and was in dire need of assistance.

One that the rest of Europe didn't abandon, but rather assisted and wrote off the debts for, one that then turned out rather well.
 
I'm sure there would be ways to make the import/export of goods easier even with fixed borders. Anyhow it's too late now, prices went up because of the Euro, wages stayed more or less the same, tons of jobs moved towards the east because of cheap labor and countries have more immigration to deal with too.

I was specifically talking about the Euro and it's advantages it has for trading in Europe and also aboard. The elimination of the conversion is a huge facilitation for the trading market.

I'm simply giving an example of a country that faced massive debt problems, a collapsed infrastructure, massive levels of unemployment and was in dire need of assistance.

One that the rest of Europe didn't abandon, but rather assisted and wrote off the debts for, one that then turned out rather well.

Well, with the difference that Greece isn't bombed to the ground and hasn't suffered under a totaltarian dictatorship. And in terms of debt, we're still paying for the WWII and only just (like 5 years ago?) have paid all of our debts to the other countries for WWI

To clear any possible misunderstanding, I'm not against helping other countries to get back on their feet. It's a giving and getting (although we only get Hakenkreuze and pictures with Merkel and Schäuble wearing a Hitler beard), but the thing that gripes me the most is the constant drive to try to find new loop holes to postpone payments of money we gave them. Sometimes it just seems that Greece is deliberately trying to not better themselfes.
 
I was specifically talking about the Euro and it's advantages it has for trading in Europe and also aboard. The elimination of the conversion is a huge facilitation for the trading market.
Yes and i was talking about all the disadvantages the € brought with it for the normal folk.
 
Yes and i was talking about all the disadvantages the € brought with it for the normal folk.

Such as? Last time I was in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, ... I didn't had to worry about going to my bank and exchange my Deutsche Marks for Franc, Gulden or Schlling.
 
Such as? Last time I was in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, ... I didn't had to worry about going to my bank and exchange my Deutsche Marks for Franc, Gulden or Schlling.
Didn't i post that already?
 
Didn't i post that already?

Yes, you did, sorry.

Anyways, at least speaking of Germany (and Austria for that matter), wages have increased by as much as 45% here, however the costs for living have also increased (by about 43% on average), therefore we do not really feel a lot of the increased wages. Overall the inflation hasn't been bigger than with our old currencies.
 
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Well, with the difference that Greece isn't bombed to the ground and hasn't suffered under a totaltarian dictatorship.
I don't recall saying the causal factors were the same? However in both cases the end result is that people on the streets suffer for the actions of people they had no control over.

And in terms of debt, we're still paying for the WWII and only just (like 5 years ago?) have paid all of our debts to the other countries for WWI
Yes because those debts were negotiated to allow Germany to be able to realistically pay off the debts over a significant period of time to ensure that they didn't totally destroy the economy and any chance for growth. Quite a difference.


To clear any possible misunderstanding, I'm not against helping other countries to get back on their feet. It's a giving and getting (although we only get Hakenkreuze and pictures with Merkel and Schäuble wearing a Hitler beard), but the thing that gripes me the most is the constant drive to try to find new loop holes to postpone payments of money we gave them.
You mean they would like a repayment plan spread over a long period of time to minimize the impact. Funny you mentioned a country that was allowed just such an option a moment ago!

Sometimes it just seems that Greece is deliberately trying to not better themselfes.
Funny, similar arguments were made against allowing Germany access to the Marshall Plan funds (well apart from the part under Russian control at the time, they just flat out refused to allow the East to even consider it).
 
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I don't recall saying the causal factors were the same? However in both cases the end result is that people on the streets suffer for the actions of people they had no control over.

The little man has always suffered in any country, regardless if it's Greece, Germany, France. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Most of the people I see protesting in Greece are usually people who have lost benefits that were completely out of proportion or they shouldn't have received in the first place.

Yes because those debts were negotiated to allow Germany to be able to realistically pay off the debts over a significant period of time to ensure that they didn't totally destroy the economy and any chance for growth. Quite a difference.

And how are we not allowing Greece the same options? I don't recall anybody wanting them to pay the whole amount in one go, and neither did I say that.

Funny, similar arguments were made against allowing Germany access to the Marshall Plan funds.

Such as? It was in the best interest for the US to stabilize Europe, Germany included.


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I personally also do not understand your gripe with my stance on this whole topic? It's easy for you brits, who do not have the Euro, to not be as critical about this.
 
The little man has always suffered in any country, regardless if it's Greece, Germany, France. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Most of the people I see protesting in Greece are usually people who have lost benefits that were completely out of proportion or they shouldn't have received in the first place.
Factually untrue.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-gr...acts-of-austerity-debunking-the-myths/5431010


And how are we not allowing Greece the same options? I don't recall anybody wanting them to pay the whole amount in one go, and neither did I say that.
Factually untrue.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21648733-no-extensions-greeces-debt-crunch


Such as? It was in the best interest for the US to stabilize Europe, Germany included.
For the US yes, for the rest of Europe? NO many of them simply wanted to pick Germany clean.


I personally also do not understand your gripe with my stance on this whole topic? It's easy for you brits, who do not have the Euro, to not be as critical about this.
That the UK is not the Euro doesn't mean it has no impact on us nor does it preclude me from having an opinion on it. I happen to work for a global company, and as such have experience of how this impacts on both people and customers I know (and not just in Greece - Portugal and Ireland are both also suffering).

Not to mention that Greece defaulting and leaving both the EU and Euro will have an impact in the EU referendum in the UK (and not one that will see people wanting to stay in), and if the UK follows Greece then the repercussions of that for the entire region will be significant (and not good for Germany as Greece leaving will damage the Euro in a potentially fatal manner).
 

That doesn't change the fact that "I" only see people protesting about their lost benefits, which is most likely a issue with our media and not me. The fact of the matter is, that everybody has to cash in to get their economy back up, the lower class, the middle class and the higher class. Unfortunately the higher class/rich people are often fairly swift in getting their money out of the country.


Same as above, "I" didn't recall someone wanting them to pay everything in one go.

But tell me, aren't these payments the first reimbursements? Please correct me, if I'm wrong.

That the UK is not the Euro doesn't mean it has no impact on us nor does it preclude me from having an opinion on it.

I never said that, did I? You're allowed to have and express that opinion everywhere and however you want, and I'm not going to stop you from that, since I'm doing the same thing.

Not to mention that Greece defaulting and leaving both the EU and Euro will have an impact in the EU referendum in the UK (and not one that will see people wanting to stay in), and if the UK follows Greece then the repercussions of that for the entire region will be significant (and not good for Germany as Greece leaving will damage the Euro in a potentially fatal manner).

100% agreed, the impact of Greece leaving the euro zone would be huge. I don't see why Greece would leave the EU though, but that would have an equally huge impact, but ultimately it's going to happen, why postpone the inevitable? The damage to the Euro is already huge with each and every time new money is being printed, our money is worth less and less, but tell me: Where do we have to draw the line? It seems, that you think it would be wise to keep Greece in the euro zone, and in the EU for that matter, at any cost, although Greece has proven to be a barrel with no end. The entire euro zone and the IMF have spend billions in hopes to get Greece's economy at least somewhat kickstarted, with no success. Also, tell me how we Germans can keep a straight face and not be fed up with the situation, regardless of our history with WWII and the Marshall Plan and so on, when we try to help them, give them guidelines, how it can be possible to overcome this crisis, and in return we get pictures of our politicians with Hitler beards and Hakenkreuze and all they do is point the finger at us for screwing them up, although they very much know, that they've brought it on themselfes. Not to mention that Greece can be glad to be in the euro zone anyways, since they didn't meet the criteria to be in the euro zone anyways (and Italy for that matter), but then they've proceeded to forge numbers to meet the criteria of the Maastricht criteria.

Don't you think that the Euro (and it's zone) has suffered enough under this crisis? Don't you think that, although the damage is already incredibly high, we should control the damage in order to protect our currency and to prevent it from becoming essentially worthless? The euro zone can live through this, but can Greece? I don't think so.
 
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Somehow people have come to want social benefits such as jobs, pensions and a social safety net, and accordingly have voted socialist thinking that's what socialism is all about. Unfortunately for them, socialism is all about government control of the economy. The governments currently in power are necessarily operated along free-market and capitalist principles and will, at the end of the day, sacrifice social benefits for the sake of economic continued viability. The EU cannot afford to lose the political support of Greece, but it also cannot afford a Greece that will not knuckle under to austerity and central economic authority. So there appears to be potentially fatal problem in the heart of Europe.
 
@Dennisch that article is a bit dated.

I got this and it's maybe too summarized, but should give an idea

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