The Fundamental flaw of GT4

[pierscoe1]

hi all.. first post, but been reading these forums ever since I got GT4 (well a bit before in anticipation actually..)

First thing I did in GT4 was buy a lairy (or so I thought) rwd car, and see what it was like to slide.... or indeed not.

This seems to be a fundamental flaw of GT4's physics.. for whilst I have managed to do a bit of drifting with this and that altered as per all the other topics on here..... if you go to a BMW dealer tomorrow and get a test-drive of an M3 (or indeed lowly 330), and you give it a bootfull of loud-pedal on a tight bend, it'll kick it's arse out....

as will an RX7, T350, 200SX, etc etc

but they just don't in GT4.. to be honest I'm pretty pissed off with it.. even my puny 140bhp MX5 will wag it's tail in really tight corners.. and very easily in the wet..

yet a 350bhp TVR T350 on a WET tsukuba circuit displays nothing but poor braking distances and terminal understeer unless you give it massive provokation. Ask any TVR owner, wet roundabouts and big hp can swap the ends round faster than you blink if you're not careful.. yet in GT4 you have to TRY REALLY HARD just to get the back end to budge!

anybody else dissappointed? once you had the sim-tyres fitted, GT3 was much more lifelike in this respect, albeit a bit on the easy side...

 

[Drift-Kid]

i know what your your saying...and whats with the normal 350z (non st) being -- instead of FR when the others are.....

 

[burnout060]

hi all.. first post, but been reading these forums ever since I got GT4 (well a bit before in anticipation actually..)

First thing I did in GT4 was buy a lairy (or so I thought) rwd car, and see what it was like to slide.... or indeed not.

This seems to be a fundamental flaw of GT4's physics.. for whilst I have managed to do a bit of drifting with this and that altered as per all the other topics on here..... if you go to a BMW dealer tomorrow and get a test-drive of an M3 (or indeed lowly 330), and you give it a bootfull of loud-pedal on a tight bend, it'll kick it's arse out....

as will an RX7, T350, 200SX, etc etc

but they just don't in GT4.. to be honest I'm pretty pissed off with it.. even my puny 140bhp MX5 will wag it's tail in really tight corners.. and very easily in the wet..

yet a 350bhp TVR T350 on a WET tsukuba circuit displays nothing but poor braking distances and terminal understeer unless you give it massive provokation. Ask any TVR owner, wet roundabouts and big hp can swap the ends round faster than you blink if you're not careful.. yet in GT4 you have to TRY REALLY HARD just to get the back end to budge!

anybody else dissappointed? once you had the sim-tyres fitted, GT3 was much more lifelike in this respect, albeit a bit on the easy side...

200SX is front wheel drive

200SX = Sentra

 

[Ketis]

i have no problem geting the rear out, and since u cant do doughnuts u cant do power-over drifts so u must use the weight shift or the feint technique

 

[d3p0]

How long have you been playing the game?
What tires are you using?
Assists off?

 

[pierscoe1]

u cant do doughnuts u cant do power-over drifts so u must use the weight shift or the feint technique

that's exactly my point..! why the hell can't you power-oversteer in GT4?? it's the most basic and rewarding part of driving in general... and this is supposed to be "The best driving simulation" !!


oh, to the guy above.. think there may be some anglo-american confusion going on here... in the UK, the 200SX is a 2-litre turbocharged longditudionally(sp?) mounted in-line 4 and is most definately rwd.. indeed it's the drift-car of choice for those on a budget.

 

[d3p0]

200SX is front wheel drive

200SX = Sentra

He's from europe (hence the TVR comment) and 240sx's there are 200sx's.

*edit* I post too slow.

 

[jrudd]

200SX is front wheel drive

200SX = Sentra

Guess again, skip. In Europe the 200sx is the NA 240sx and the Japanese Silvia.

edit: wow, looks like everyone jumped on that one.

 

[d3p0]

Have you played around on the gymkhana course at all? I'd suggest starting there with some crappy tires.

 

[KurtG]

I agree that the rear ends arent as squirelly as they should be. I was REALLY pissed off at first about how you cant do a basic donut. I eventually figured doing a donut was just about the least important thing in a driving game for me so I forgave GT4 in that respect. I took an m3 out in comfort tires and the rear would come out moderately and allthough im not exactly sure of the real life behavior that would take place, to me it does seem to be a little under squirrely like I said. Im still highly impressed with gt4 though. Anyone know of any games which they think are more realistic than GT4? Id like to compare.

By the way, you might want to try 200 degree mode if you happen to be using a DFP as its alot easier to get oversteer while using that mode.

 

[pierscoe1]

I agree that the rear ends arent as squirelly as they should be.

Anyone know of any games which they think are more realistic than GT4? Id like to compare.

glad to know it's not just me then....

if you want a real simulation, get GTR
it is absolutely the dogs danglies!! you WILL however NEED a wheel to get any respectable lap-times... and it's only FIA-GT cars (although there is a mod scene).

hehe.. weird how different cars are different things in different countries.. eh?

I agree that donut's are hardly the last word in sophistication when it comes to driving, but I just get the feeling that if the game can't even do that right, let alone proper power-oversteer, then when I'm really pressing on at the 'ring.. I'm really not getting the experience I should be.....

admittedly if you drive nice and neatly and tidily, it's a great game.. but I always liked the sim-tyres in GT3 for the ability to have a good old hoon around sideways at will....

 

[d3p0]

I'm sure a donut can be done..

 

[KurtG]

Ill have to give GTR a shot if you say its that realistic. Its for PC right? Would my pc be able to run it well though do you know? Ive got a presario 2100 laptop; mobile AMD athlon XP2400+, 1.79 GHz, 448 MB of RAM. Im no computer geek.

I understand the initial feeling of being constrained to nice and tidy driving by GT4 because its difficult to initiate and control sideways flings but its very possible to have nice controlled drifts once you get used to the controls. Just check out alot of the videos on here if you havnt. I use 900 degree mode with a DFP and can drift at will.

By the way your feelings on the inability for the games physics to properly do a donut was exactly my feeling as well. Im not so sure that it overlaps into the realism of the driving overall. I dont know though as I havnt driven any of the cars in GT4 hard in real life.

 

[CRF]

I had the same question in my mind,and i still have.But if you think it twice,u will end up in the conclusion that in most of tha cases,even with modern rearwheel drive cars,the front end lacks its traction first.Unless u make a weight transfer etc.The only problem is that u dont have the right feeling of the speed,and u think that in so low (theoriticaly) speeds,u cant have understeer.If though u try to oversteer,u will,by making the right efforts.For example,in a wet tsukuba, if you try to un-stabilise the rear end with an s2000 u could make huge drifts,but it just wants the proper moves,not arcadish.

 

[d3p0]

I think that's a big part of it too. FR's have a tendancy to understeer with throttle-on. Most cars will do some ammount of understeering (even on a skidpad) before the rear comes out. If you want to get it out without plowing it requires some extra effort; a quick feint, or a tap on the brakes - something. I suppose if you want it to come out during power over you could add a bunch of toe out, but this will make it difficult to get higher angles and also more difficult to reel it back in once it's out.

 

[s0nny80y]

its the tires. use N class tires, N3 for powerful cars and low powered cars use N2. I had the same problem when I didn't change the tires that came stock (S2's) with a purchased car. No one has to remind you to turn off the driving aids.

 

[CRF]

I saw in another thread drift settings with tcs understeer to 21..I havent even tried so far to drift with driving aids,i will try it though to see if setting the tcs to on,help to improve the turn in.And if all this doesnt works,try the yellowbird

 

[dsvw56]

I have to admit that I was a little disappointed at first with the general physics of this game. I own a 300ZX so naturally that was one of the first cars I bought in the game, only to find out that it wasnt nearly as fun to drive as its real life counterpart. I have no problem breaking the rear end loose on mine, in fact sometimes it happens unintentionally and mine is completly stock. You shouldn't have to tune your suspension to crazy set-ups in order to achieve oversteer. I was fairly pleased with the realism of the cars once you could get them to drift. It's probably the most realistic I've seen drifting in a game. Especially with the lift-throttle oversteer and that nasty little sling shot effect we all hate so much. lol All and all once I got a little more in to the game and got used to the controls and how the cars reacted I was happy with it. And the fact that you can't even do a donut is frustrating but still probably the least of my worries. The e-brake is probably my biggest complaint. If you've ever pulled an e-brake going 35mph+ you know what I'm talking about. They really need to work on that.

 

[KurtG]

What should it do that it doesnt in the game dsvw56? I wouldnt know.

 

[Stanley^Carter]

hi all.. first post, but been reading these forums ever since I got GT4 (well a bit before in anticipation actually..)

First thing I did in GT4 was buy a lairy (or so I thought) rwd car, and see what it was like to slide.... or indeed not.

This seems to be a fundamental flaw of GT4's physics.. for whilst I have managed to do a bit of drifting with this and that altered as per all the other topics on here..... if you go to a BMW dealer tomorrow and get a test-drive of an M3 (or indeed lowly 330), and you give it a bootfull of loud-pedal on a tight bend, it'll kick it's arse out....

as will an RX7, T350, 200SX, etc etc

but they just don't in GT4.. to be honest I'm pretty pissed off with it.. even my puny 140bhp MX5 will wag it's tail in really tight corners.. and very easily in the wet..

yet a 350bhp TVR T350 on a WET tsukuba circuit displays nothing but poor braking distances and terminal understeer unless you give it massive provokation. Ask any TVR owner, wet roundabouts and big hp can swap the ends round faster than you blink if you're not careful.. yet in GT4 you have to TRY REALLY HARD just to get the back end to budge!

anybody else dissappointed? once you had the sim-tyres fitted, GT3 was much more lifelike in this respect, albeit a bit on the easy side...

pierscoe1, I know how you feel, but to be honest, there's really nothing much you can do, but to just try and enjoy the game, it is STILL an impressive game isn't it?

GT4 is much more realistic than GT3 in some ways, if you're just doing normal racing/driving in GT4, yeah, the feel and feedback is real good, but somehow, like what you have mentioned, those basics stuffs that are possible in RWD cars such as donuts, burnouts, power overs, just don't seem to be realistic, and it feels really weird.

Anyways, this kind of discussions has been discussed a lot when the game first come out, and comparing it with the top PC racing simulators won't help either, simply because they are very different IMO, GT4 is more on an arcade side (it is a console game afterall), while those GTR, LFS are PC based... well, yeah, the more you compare them, the discussions will never end.

just enjoy GT4.

p/s: anyways, I'm more looking forward to Enthusia, as far as the video goes, the physics seems much much more promising.

 

[dsvw56]

What should it do that it doesnt in the game dsvw56? I wouldnt know.

well pulling the e-brake locks up the rear tires, essentially causing the rear end to slid. Pulling the e-brake can cause the car to power slide or my personal favorite do a 180. Get going about 55-60, pull the e-brake, let the car slide down to about 45, slight turn right, whip left and bam, ur instantly facing the other direction. Its quite fun in FF cars. FF cars do pretty nice e-brake power slides on snow or ice.

 

[BreakerOhio]

hi all.. first post, but been reading these forums ever since I got GT4 (well a bit before in anticipation actually..)

First thing I did in GT4 was buy a lairy (or so I thought) rwd car, and see what it was like to slide.... or indeed not.

This seems to be a fundamental flaw of GT4's physics.. for whilst I have managed to do a bit of drifting with this and that altered as per all the other topics on here..... if you go to a BMW dealer tomorrow and get a test-drive of an M3 (or indeed lowly 330), and you give it a bootfull of loud-pedal on a tight bend, it'll kick it's arse out....

as will an RX7, T350, 200SX, etc etc

but they just don't in GT4.. to be honest I'm pretty pissed off with it.. even my puny 140bhp MX5 will wag it's tail in really tight corners.. and very easily in the wet..

yet a 350bhp TVR T350 on a WET tsukuba circuit displays nothing but poor braking distances and terminal understeer unless you give it massive provokation. Ask any TVR owner, wet roundabouts and big hp can swap the ends round faster than you blink if you're not careful.. yet in GT4 you have to TRY REALLY HARD just to get the back end to budge!

anybody else dissappointed? once you had the sim-tyres fitted, GT3 was much more lifelike in this respect, albeit a bit on the easy side...

I'm sick of hearing this...don't bash the game because you haven't yet learned and understood the game.

I think the reason you can't oversteer is because you haven't discovered how to supply the right inputs in the game to make it happen. When you talk about going to a dealership and test driving those cars, in real life you don't control the car with a daul shock controller, when you punch the gas the car will bite back and I know for sure you don't continue to steer into the corner, because the power of the car oversteer is going to twist that wheel straight and then twist it into opposite lock. THINK ABOUT IT ... I think this knowledge is lacking in similar posts like this, the reason you can't oversteer is because the front wheels are locked in. Thats the SECRET. Learn to know when to stop turning into the corner. I've been drifting here and doing it without any tuning, most of my drifts I do from the arcade cars. You can power over any of them if you control the front wheel accordingly. I'll be glad to help you more if you want more explaination. But you have to really practice and experiment with it. Read about drifting and understand in your mind what really had to happen for a car to oversteer.

GT3 with simulation tires was deceiving and made you think that GT4 should feel the same. Clear this thought and think about learning GT4 all over. The controls aren't the same.

 

[KurtG]

lol! Well duuuuuuuh 'dsvw56'! I meant why did you think it was so bad in the game? What do they need to change about how the car behaves in the game when you pull the ebrake? I know when i pull the ebrake in game and turn hard it spins the car very easily. What should be different?

Ohiobreaker said:

When you talk about going to a dealership and test driving those cars, in real life you don't control the car with a daul shock controller, when you punch the gas the car will bite back and I know for sure you don't continue to steer into the corner, because the power of the car oversteer is going to twist that wheel straight and then twist it into opposite lock. THINK ABOUT IT ... I think this knowledge is lacking in similar posts like this, the reason you can't oversteer is because the front wheels are locked in. Thats the SECRET.

No offense Ohio but not one sentence in that quote above made a lick of sense to me. Your descriptions were very vague. Would you mind clarifying what you were saying please? Id like to get a better idea of what your saying.

By the way, the guy who originally said he was dissapointed with the physics was upset because he didnt think the tail sliding physics of GT4 were all that realistic. Im not sure if hes driven enough cars to make that assumption however explaining how to get oversteer in the game didnt really have anything to do with what he was saying. Obviously hes saying he thinkgs that you shouldnt need to put in all that input to get a good amount of oversteer. Not that your post wasnt still probably helpfull to some people. 👍

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

lol! Well duuuuuuuh 'dsvw56'! I meant why did you think it was so bad in the game? What do they need to change about how the car behaves in the game when you pull the ebrake? I know when i pull the ebrake in game and turn hard it spins the car very easily. What should be different?

Ohiobreaker said:

No offense Ohio but not one sentence in that quote above made a lick of sense to me. Your descriptions were very vague. Would you mind clarifying what you were saying please? Id like to get a better idea of what your saying.

He pretty much said you cannot compare the DS2 with real life IN THE FIRST PLACE! And he also tried to give some advice that if the front tyres got locked, you cannot turn your car into a drift, cause you don't have enough grip for turning.

I'm also pretty sick of this, you can search for this ALSO I think. Cause there already are like 5 of these threads. If you think it's impossible.............well then that has been said and so you probably lost hope, so there is no point to this thread, we can't help you with drifting, but if you post something more usefull like a vid. or something just to show what your REAL problem is, we can begin to help you out. Otherwise this thread has NO POINT AT ALL.

 

[kjakan.no]

Specially at lower speeds it is hard to get oversteer. Your backwheels may spin like crazy, but still they seem to have total traction sideways. Very, very strange. That is a bit irritating. I am using a dfp, so I have good control of how much I steer. A BMW M3 that supposed to oversteer very easy is harder to oversteer in than my 50BHP VW 1303s is in real life. Something is not right here.

At high speeds the rear end kick out much easier.

I am not saying it is impossible, but harder than it supposed to.

 

[pierscoe1]

thankyou very much kjakan !! exactly what I'm talking about!!

My (Real Life) MX5 with a measly 140bhp is easier to power-oversteer than a 340bhp M3 in the game! that's what I was talking about.. and as you said, the wheels seem to spin fine.. and yet maintain lateral grip... that's just wrong!

and to the "I'm sick of this" lot.. don't read this thread maybe!?!? just a thought.

I'm not saying it's impossible to drift, indeed I said that I had managed it, just that something about oversteer in general in GT4 seems a bit off. I just wanted to compare opinions with others on this matter.. and most of you have been great in this respect... thankyou very much for your comments.

I will continue to play.. but I'll always be a bit dissappointed I think.

 

[Sloth]

I think the main source of the problems you guys are having is that you (DFP owners) aren't turning in hard enough or fast enough.

When I realized this, drifting suddenly became alot easier.

You just have to let the wheel do what it wants until you're at that ideal angle, then grab onto it.

Like completely remove your hands after the initial turn-in and during the power oversteering.

You will notice that your car will stay on it's set line while the steering wheel countersteers by itself.

This is how it works in real life, although the DFP is much more sensitive.

Give it a shot.

I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

 

[BreakerOhio]

and to the "I'm sick of this" lot.. don't read this thread maybe!?!? just a thought.

I'm not saying it's impossible to drift, indeed I said that I had managed it, just that something about oversteer in general in GT4 seems a bit off. I just wanted to compare opinions with others on this matter.. and most of you have been great in this respect... thankyou very much for your comments.

I will continue to play.. but I'll always be a bit dissappointed I think.

Well, you are right about that, I guess I can just not read this thread. So me being sick of this would be my own fault. 👍
Anyhow, sticking to the subject I'm glad you will continue to play, but I think the more you play you will appreciate it more after you discover how the developers designed the game. I'll try to be more clear here.

The reason getting oversteer is hard is because there are no assist in the front tires for countersteering. When you powerover in real life, the front wheel will travel and face the direction with the least resistence, thus going parallel with the direction of the slide. In real like your wheel will be strong enough to trown your hands off it and want to countersteer.
In the game this behavior isn't automatic and have much more power and control to continue to lock the wheels in, you have to know when to assist in the steering to simulate this for yourself. I hope that is clear. If you are using the DFP, you need to turn in quickly but then as you feel the oversteer, you have to let the wheel do its thing, it will want to countersteer and you will need to catch it and smooth it out. 👍

Hope that helps everyone.

 

[Sloth]

That's exactly what I was saying.

When people can grasp this concept, drifting will become much easier.

 

[194GVan]

My (Real Life) MX5 with a measly 140bhp is easier to power-oversteer than a 340bhp M3 in the game! that's what I was talking about.. and as you said, the wheels seem to spin fine.. and yet maintain lateral grip... that's just wrong!

compare the suspension and tire setups of the two cars. I have rode in a 96 M3, those cars have a ridiculous amount of grip because of the nice german suspension and big fat tires. Miatas are good because they are small, light, quick, but you can easily argue that their stock suspension and tire setups dont even come close to an M3.

and comparing a real life miata to a simulated M3? thats not even a level playing field for comparison.