The GT-R in GT5 (Driving Dynamics)

[Hunt3rj2]

Am I the only one that notices that the GT-R doesn't really seem to be done "right" in GT5? Or is this just a byproduct of:
a. I haven't driven a GT-R in my life
b. I'm using a DS3?

However, going off of what I read from people that do drive the car (lurking NAGTROC: http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?/topic/23944-can-you-dial-out-the-understeer/page__st__20 )it sounds as if the car should understeer throttle on, snap-oversteer at the limit, but essentially, stay RWD until you start applying enough power to require it to do so.

This is not how I drive the GT-R in GT5. In GT5, the GT-R stock requires the car to use it's very squirrelly behavior under braking to get into the corner, and in general I've found that stamping on the gas on corner exit is the only way to get a teensy bit of oversteer, and that even if I'm powersliding through a corner, letting off the throttle immediately makes the car start rotating back towards understeering behavior, rather than causing the car to oversteer into a death spiral if there was just enough rear wheelspin to cause some in the first place.

Does anyone understand exactly what I mean when I say that the car seems to feel like it has permanent AWD?

 

[Exorcet]

AWD in general doesn't put enough load on the front tires most of the time and the cars don't really understeer strongly. The GT-R seems to have it the stability control built into its AWD modeled in game, so that makes it even more agile than other AWD cars.

EDIT

Well I happened to be on GT5, and the GT-R actually isn't too bad. I do get some understeer out of corners. I think this might be the first time I've used it since 2.0.

I don't get much oversteer, but I'd imagine that the car reacts pretty fast when the tires start slipping.

 

[Hunt3rj2]

AWD in general doesn't put enough load on the front tires most of the time and the cars don't really understeer strongly. The GT-R seems to have it the stability control built into its AWD modeled in game, so that makes it even more agile than other AWD cars.

EDIT

Well I happened to be on GT5, and the GT-R actually isn't too bad. I do get some understeer out of corners. I think this might be the first time I've used it since 2.0.

I don't get much oversteer, but I'd imagine that the car reacts pretty fast when the tires start slipping.

I actually feel like there's VSC "always on" driving in this car... the GT-R is basically RWD until you press the gas pedal, so my issue really isn't with the understeer on corner exit (this is caused by the AWD "turning on" from longitudinal G), but in general it seems a lot like the GT-R has permanent AWD engaged, and I think the most noticeable result of this is how if you have to do high speed corner changes, once you start turning, even if you lift off the throttle to let the GT-R's power distribution go all to the back, all you get is a lot of understeer instead of what would be power-oversteer.

I'm going to try driving the GT-R 07 a bunch more before I post some more thoughts upon whether the phenomena that seem to be described by people who track the car regularly crops up within GT5's interpretation of this car.

The car does react very fast to slippage, but even at stock power levels it should be possible to both powerslide out some slower corners (the rear kicks out some, but not the wild oversteer that is doable in the ZR1 with SH), and it should still be able to snap-oversteer at the limit.

 

[Exorcet]

The car does react very fast to slippage, but even at stock power levels it should be possible to both powerslide out some slower corners (the rear kicks out some, but not the wild oversteer that is doable in the ZR1 with SH), and it should still be able to snap-oversteer at the limit.

I see now. I was focusing more on corner exit, I remember the GT5P GT-R being a little ridiculous in that it could claw its way through corners without the slightest bit of understeer. At least if I remember right.

In GT5, I can get the back out in 1st, or in the right conditions 2nd, but the car is really stable. You really need to work hard to upset it, even when throwing the steering all the way and letting off the gas. I don't think it's "perma AWD" so much as it the game toning down weight transfer, or something like that. It could also have something to do with the rear wing, as I've heard that downforce in game acts from 0 speed and the rear wings seems to be a little too powerful in their ability to stabilize a car.

On a related note here's a video of a GT-R drifting. It seems like the car doesn't want to get to big angles, though it could be the driver.

 

[Hunt3rj2]

I see now. I was focusing more on corner exit, I remember the GT5P GT-R being a little ridiculous in that it could claw its way through corners without the slightest bit of understeer. At least if I remember right.

In GT5, I can get the back out in 1st, or in the right conditions 2nd, but the car is really stable. You really need to work hard to upset it, even when throwing the steering all the way and letting off the gas. I don't think it's "perma AWD" so much as it the game toning down weight transfer, or something like that. It could also have something to do with the rear wing, as I've heard that downforce in game acts from 0 speed and the rear wings seems to be a little too powerful in their ability to stabilize a car.

On a related note here's a video of a GT-R drifting. It seems like the car doesn't want to get to big angles, though it could be the driver.

You may be quite right that rear downforce/toned down weight transfer could cause this, it's in general extremely hard to get FF hot hatches that are rather notorious for snap/lift off oversteer to behave that way.

Something else worth noting is how the stock center diff seems to set the initial torque split at 30-70, when I believe it's something more like 2-98 without throttle and max throttle goes something like 50-50.

 

[Hunt3rj2]

Bumping, I don't think it's an inaccurate weight transfer, but just flat out an inaccurate modeling of the AWD.

I think it's possible to say this because while understeering under power, letting off the throttle doesn't make the rear start kicking out from power transfer to the rear, oversteering under power doesn't increase the the rate of oversteer by having power dumped to the rear, and when in corners with oversteer, while it doesn't spin out from it like RWD, it's a 4 wheel drift, and I have to keep steering in to sustain it, and letting off the steering lock results in immediate drift towards understeer...

 

[JaySin85]

First time I reall drove the GT-R was a shuffle race on Tsukuba. As I was exiting the first turn, I hit the throttle and went into a four wheel drift. I proceded to do this throughout pretty much the whole race (It was fun, and faster when I could get it right) and took first by a long shot.

Haven't driven it enough to know all the characteristics, but I found it pulls out of a corner like crazy if you do it right. Which is kind of the way I expected it to be. Go in too hot though, and I would notice a lot of understeer. Which can sometimes even be corrected by turning in a little sharper and giving it some throttle.

 

[Hunt3rj2]

First time I reall drove the GT-R was a shuffle race on Tsukuba. As I was exiting the first turn, I hit the throttle and went into a four wheel drift. I proceded to do this throughout pretty much the whole race (It was fun, and faster when I could get it right) and took first by a long shot.

Haven't driven it enough to know all the characteristics, but I found it pulls out of a corner like crazy if you do it right. Which is kind of the way I expected it to be. Go in too hot though, and I would notice a lot of understeer. Which can sometimes even be corrected by turning in a little sharper and giving it some throttle.

It pulls extremely hard out the corner, but the problem is the inaccurate modeling when you fail to trust the AWD system and then lift off the throttle when that drift starts kicking in. The turn-in should be extremely aggressive with as much trail braking as possible if the people who track mostly stock GTRs are to be believed.

Basically, the on throttle characteristics feel spot on, but it's the off throttle handling that is bugging me. There should be some snap oversteer characteristic to the car judging by Randy Pobst's eval and others of the GT-R, but for some reason I can't find it.

 

[Exorcet]

Basically, the on throttle characteristics feel spot on, but it's the off throttle handling that is bugging me. There should be some snap oversteer characteristic to the car judging by Randy Pobst's eval and others of the GT-R, but for some reason I can't find it.

I think it is a weight transfer issue at least partially, if you go completely off throttle, the car still doesn't really get upset. The only way I could get enough weight off the back to start a slide was from applying light brakes (heavy braking would induce understeer).

Maybe the GT-R's AWD is letting off on the front wheels, but the weight transfer damping isn't letting the car slide.

You could try to replicate the AWD power distribution manually by using the RA function and see what happens.

 

[JDMKING13]

ABS off guys brake balance 3 front 0 back. If you have sloppy braking technique you will pay, the rear will kick out on you all day. Edit: @ OP what tires are you using? What is your complete st up? If you are using ABS 1 it fills like there is still some small assist on all the cars. ABS off makes the car feel alive and raw. 👍
Edit: Comfort Soft in the stock form. 👍

 

[Hunt3rj2]

ABS off guys brake balance 3 front 0 back. If you have sloppy braking technique you will pay, the rear will kick out on you all day. Edit: @ OP what tires are you using? What is your complete st up? If you are using ABS 1 it fills like there is still some small assist on all the cars. ABS off makes the car feel alive and raw. 👍

It's not braking, it's just going from acceleration to no throttle or braking, which seems to not be doing a thing in the way of upsetting the car that would normally happen.

I'm on a bone stock GT-R 07 with either comfort hard or sports hard, both tires were tested with just ABS 1, controller sensitivity set to 7. When I purposely try to force the car into a slide, letting off the throttle just makes it push/understeer. I've tried setting the car's center diff to 10/90 split using a Torsen upgrade, but that just causes the rear end to get all loose on power and doesn't really make the car do lift-off oversteer/snap oversteer.

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?/topic/23944-can-you-dial-out-the-understeer/

Things I've noted within the thread: The GT-R's AWD reduces front allocated torque split under cornering G, but increases it upon acceleration G. Overdoing the trail-braking should result in a Porsche-esque very sudden snap-oversteer, and going into a slight drift on corner exit should be able to be pulled out of when you keep the throttle floored, but backing off will cause snap-oversteer like a Porsche.

The RUFs seem to be extremely tail-happy, and even though the GT-R is not deliberately so, there are a few ways to provoke it into oversteering that seem to be missing within GT5. I usually have to use the same techniques that I use with the STI and the R8/Gallardo, going full lock, then immediately back off the throttle and then opposite lock to try and get the car rotated.

This leads me to infer that it may be that the AWD system is not as well modeled as it should be, but it could just as easily be that weight transfer is not fully modeled within the game, in the Forza 4 vs GT5 physics thread there are some comments that seem to support that theory. But then again, even if weight transfer was dampened in some way, if the car is being pushed to it's very limit of grip for the rear tires, lifting off the throttle should induce oversteer.

 

[JDMKING13]

It's not braking, it's just going from acceleration to no throttle or braking, which seems to not be doing a thing in the way of upsetting the car that would normally happen.

I'm on a bone stock GT-R 07 with either comfort hard or sports hard, both tires were tested with just ABS 1, controller sensitivity set to 7. When I purposely try to force the car into a slide, letting off the throttle just makes it push/understeer. I've tried setting the car's center diff to 10/90 split using a Torsen upgrade, but that just causes the rear end to get all loose on power and doesn't really make the car do lift-off oversteer/snap oversteer.

Take off the ABS set brakes to 2 in the front and 0 and the back for starters, when you get the hang of that set to 3-0. The braking becomes alive. You need to make sure you transfer the weight to the front tires or your lap times and car balance will suffer. Let me know how it goes. 👍

 

[Hunt3rj2]

Take off the ABS set brakes to 2 in the front and 0 and the back for starters, when you get the hang of that set to 3-0. The braking becomes alive. You need to make sure you transfer the weight to the front tires or your lap times and car balance will suffer. Let me know how it goes. 👍

I'm pretty sure that just makes only the front wheels able to brake.

 

[JDMKING13]

I'm pretty sure that just makes only the front wheels able to brake.

Zero still gives the rear braking power, did you try it? I was just trying to give you a starting point. It really brings out the physics in my opinion.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I TL;DRed most of this thread. All I know is, I drove the one in the time trial and it handled mostly like an ocean liner. Massive understeer on power and off, unless I brake not long before I turn in, trail braking heavily to sort of dump the car into the corner. Then it sticks for about half a second before resuming normal understeer.

 

[Sohvakettu]

If you mean the latest time trial then you have to remember that it has SRF on. What tires are people using in their testing? I suspect that CS is closest to real life standard tires. In Nürburgring timed laps they tend to use grippier tires from the options list for many cars (SH).

 

[mykem]

I'm pretty sure that just makes only the front wheels able to brake.

The setting has little to do with braking power but actually sensitivity (and bias). Unless you have load cell or pneumatic brake pedal installed, it's best to turn your sensitivity down. I agree with JDMKING13 that you should at least try the more front bias setting.

I've never played GT5 with a DS3 (heaven forbid I ever have to) but in my past experience, a finger and a button can be just as good a foot and a pedal but a button unlike a pedal doesn't quite have the throw. So having less sensitivity (despite a finger being more tactile than a foot) can be good.