the Loadcell myth

[acwebpage]

I have been a serious sim racer for the past 4 years, and in that period I have increasingly heard of claims from many in the community that Loadcell brakes are more 'realistic'. so I thought I'd finally put this claim to the test.

The brakes fitted with Loadcell certainly does make it a lot easier to do threshold braking, but is it realistic?

I spent two hours in my real car today, deliberately driving with my shoes off - I wanted to really feel the brakes of a real car. (I would encourage you to give this a try too, so you can make up your own mind).

the first thing i noticed was that the throw of a real brake pedal is much longer than a loadcell brake. and also, the resistance in a real brake is much lighter than that of a loadcell brake.

what surprised me the most in fact is that it is actually much harder to feel the braking force of a real car when compared to a loadcell.

so the conclusion i have come to is that:
a loadcell brake will give you a much better feel of the braking force, and this will help make threshold braking without ABS a lot easier - so if you want faster lap times, this is a good option.

BUT, a loadcell brake does NOT feel realistic, the pedal throw is too short, its resistance is too stiff, and it gives a braking feel that even real cars don't have (this is not a bad thing, as mentioned, the superior braking feel makes braking easier) - but this makes it unrealistic.

 

[Bozothenutter]

partially true, there should indeed be pedal travel, but the pedal on a sports car can be very 'hard'...not to mention racecars which have a very hard none assisted brakes.
take the vacuum pipe off the brake booster on your car (on a back road) and then feel the brakes.
I guess it's horses for courses......to replicate a roadcar pedal needs a different setup from a racecar.

 

[the_greeze]

Sounds like you need to bleed the brakes on your road car mate!

 

[Mayaman]

Ummmm, what kind of car do you drive because the brakes on my Porsche are certainly more stiff than the brakes on my Pontiac beater. Depends on what car you're in.

 

[FCTaff]

Sorry m8 but it's very car dependent, Some are more servo assisted then others.

I have huge brakes on my Brabus they are quite firm to press and have excellent feedback though the peddle. My 5 series are lighter on the peddle.
Now if you have a drive of a Renault, you only have to look at the peddle in the wrong way or brush it with your foot or a fly land on it and your sucking the windscreen !

 

[OlderRacer 1944]

The bottom line is that load cell brakes like the Fanatec Clubsports are as close to "real life" as you are going to get today. And the throw is adjustable from a lot to very little. All other sim brakes don't even come close to "reality'.

 

[superbike81]

This post is a joke right? It's not April Fool's Day yet, so maybe I'm mistaken.

REAL race cars have stiff brakes, even aggressive street cars have stiff brakes. Also the length of travel all depends on the individual setup of the car or the load cell equipped brakes.

There are different types of load cell equipped brakes, surely some Logitech brakes modded with a load cell will feel different than Fanatec CSP's which will feel different than CST brakes. Then you've got the hydraulic equipped brakes which use real racing car parts and supposedly feel amazingly accurate. But according to your "test" those brakes would also be very un-realistic. LOL!

Really though, this post is a joke, right?

 

[tribolik]

The loadcell trys to replicate race car brakes not road car brakes... but nice try though

 

[redmalloc]

acwebpage, you have not addressed the question you posed yourself.

and in that period I have increasingly heard of claims from many in the community that Loadcell brakes are more 'realistic'.

BUT, a loadcell brake does NOT feel realistic

You went from a relative to an absolute. "more realistic" was the issue not "realistic".

Loadcells, a pressure based system are *more* realistic than a position based system. Or are you going to tell us a spring is *more* realistic than a loadcell?

 

[superbike81]

Well, springs can be used in combination with a load cell sensor for excellent feel:

CST's for example:

 

[occasionalracer]

Well, springs can be used in combination with a load cell sensor for excellent feel:

CST's for example:

[/img]

Think there will ever be a way to make those work with the T500RS on PS3?

 

[left888]

Well, springs can be used in combination with a load cell sensor for excellent feel:

CST's for example:

Those your color?

 

[superbike81]

No I chose red, even though it won't really be visible in my new cockpit anyways.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

load cells (like all hardware)depends on the software. In most cases I find it a lot easier to lock up brakes with load cells than IRL.
Even Brazil stock car which has no ABS are very hard to lock up. This is because the brakes are specially design with the car in mind unlike sims.
Iracing is one of the best I've experience that takes advantage of load cells. But most games "reads" a load cell just like a pot.

 

[superbike81]

Easy solution is the load cell amplifiers like Fanatec uses on the CSP and CSR-E Pedals. This allows you to adjust the sensitivity of the load cell. With it turned all the way one way, its fairly easy to lock up brakes, turn it the other way and you practically have to jump on the pedal to lock the brakes.

 

[TrackpadUser]

When you bleed the brakes in a competition or track vehicule, you always try to make the pedal as firm as possible so we can have as much control as possible.

On road cars for some reason many car makers make it so the pedal is squishy, don't know why, but it doesnt matter much due to the abundance of ABS systems.

I just compare the pedal feel from my college's Mini-Baja SAE car (pretty damn stiff) to the feel of my mom car's brake pedal (pretty squishy) to the feel of my previous car's brake pedal (a USDM Swift 2000) which was quite stiff.

Pedal stiffness depends on the car and how its brakes were bled.

But whatever your opinion is on what is realistic and what is not, load based sensor is much more realistic than a position based sensor on a brake pedal, because IRL, it doesn't matter if you have a squishy or a hard pedal feel, the force you apply on it is what changes the braking force, not how far you push the pedal in.

 

[VWMasteR]

Sounds like you need to bleed the brakes on your road car mate!

That's what I was thinking.

 

[derekspeare]

A load cell brake is superior to a pot based brake for the reasons related to neurophysiology. Our very human leg can "remember" changes in pressure much better than changes in angle. A load cell converts foot pressure into braking force and a potentiometer converts foot position (angle of rotation) into braking force. Just like in a real road car, foot pressure is what will stop our virtual one when a load cell is used. It's far easier to develop a feel for necessary foot pressure than position.

Just say no to "pot"

d

 

[acwebpage]

From many of the posts here it appears that race car brakes feel like loadcells. This is probably true as I haven't driven a race car before. My comments were based on my experiences driving street cars. I actually found the feel of a loadcells quite strange and it takes a bit of getting used to. Hence to me it was not a realistic feel especially the very short throw.
Btw what is bleeding the brakes?

 

[novadave]

From many of the posts here it appears that race car brakes feel like loadcells. This is probably true as I haven't driven a race car before. My comments were based on my experiences driving street cars. I actually found the feel of a loadcells quite strange and it takes a bit of getting used to. Hence to me it was not a realistic feel especially the very short throw.
Btw what is bleeding the brakes?

brake bleeding is removing trapped air in the hydraulic lines by applying either pressure or vaccumm at the bleed screws at the master or brake caliper ( depending on your brake system type ).
if you have air in the system this would result in a spongy brake pedal feeling and excessive pedal travel.
note - this can be dangerous !!

 

[StudeJeeper]

Yes, the feel and response of load cell mods is mythical. I have been enjoying my APElectrix G27 mod since this summer. Having been an auto mechanic for many years and driving many different cars, IMHO this type of brake pedal is more "drivable" then the positional based pedal sensors. Wether it is "real" or not isn't really an issue as there are so many factors that cause a change in brake pedal feel that "realistic" would be nearly impossible to pin down. Even an individual car can have mechanical or hydraulic changes that will effect the pedal feel especially during performance type driving. Temperature ranges change brake performance and pedal during a race and can cause trapped moisture to boil in street cars brake fluid that will cause a mushy pedal feel due to steam being compressed inside the lines, calipers, wheel cylinders. Sorry for the long post, but trying to explain a "real" pedal feel could turn into a book, or at least a small pamphlet.

 

[Jav]

From many of the posts here it appears that race car brakes feel like loadcells. This is probably true as I haven't driven a race car before. My comments were based on my experiences driving street cars. I actually found the feel of a loadcells quite strange and it takes a bit of getting used to. Hence to me it was not a realistic feel especially the very short throw.
Btw what is bleeding the brakes?

Just go and properly bleed your brakes, and by properly I mean some times spending 2-4 hours chasing out 1 anoying bubble out of your system. Then you'll see how a real brake pedal feels.

Yes, the feel and response of load cell mods is mythical. I have been enjoying my APElectrix G27 mod since this summer. Having been an auto mechanic for many years and driving many different cars, IMHO this type of brake pedal is more "drivable" then the positional based pedal sensors. Wether it is "real" or not isn't really an issue as there are so many factors that cause a change in brake pedal feel that "realistic" would be nearly impossible to pin down. Even an individual car can have mechanical or hydraulic changes that will effect the pedal feel especially during performance type driving. Temperature ranges change brake performance and pedal during a race and can cause trapped moisture to boil in street cars brake fluid that will cause a mushy pedal feel due to steam being compressed inside the lines, calipers, wheel cylinders. Sorry for the long post, but trying to explain a "real" pedal feel could turn into a book, or at least a small pamphlet.

All depends on the type of fluid you use and how good of a job you did bleeding the system. I've spent 2-4 hrs chasing bubbles out of my brakes and I would get that rock solid pedal feel and have a trouble free weekend at the track. While in a few occasions I would get that feel from a quick bleed only to have to bleed again on Saturday's afternoon due to some brake fade...

 

[FCTaff]

I just take mine to the dealer

 

[occasionalracer]

I just take mine to the dealer

So you prefer to let the dealer take you for a ride?

 

[Jav]

I just take mine to the dealer

Yeah, I prefer not to have my wallet raped, just try and go a race weekend on a dealership service... Better yet try a simple track day!

 

[lazjet]

i agree dealer ships rape you of your money, use cheap fluids, say things are broken which are not, say they change something but didnt, steal stuff from your car, etc. Doing things your self or taking your car to a trusted mechanic is the best way to do things. Even when i had free maintenance for my car i never brought it into the dealership.

As for the load cell topic, there are to many factors to make it feel completely realistic. But it is far more realistic then brakes using only potentiometer.

 

[StudeJeeper]

i agree dealer ships rape you of your money, use cheap fluids, say things are broken which are not, say they change something but didnt, steal stuff from your car, etc. Doing things your self or taking your car to a trusted mechanic is the best way to do things. Even when i had free maintenance for my car i never brought it into the dealership.

As for the load cell topic, there are to many factors to make it feel completely realistic. But it is far more realistic then brakes using only potentiometer.

When I worked at a dealership (late 1970's early 80's) This wasn't the case. Unfortunately most dealerships and garages today are like this. We took our Beetle sport to a VW dealer to get a door handle problem estimated and were told we needed rear brakes as they were "dangerously worn" and it would only cost us $560. I installed new performance rotors (drilled and slotted) and ceramic pads for around $150. The wheels were corroded to the hubs (aluminum wheels on steel hubs) and had obviously never been pulled by the mech at the dealer. I measured the rotors and the material left on the pad and neither were outside of safety specs. Yeah they were worn, but no where near dangerous.

 

[FCTaff]

my dealer is the biggest tuning company in the world, I think they know more then anyone else would about the car

I like my warranty too

 

[Jav]

my dealer is the biggest tuning company in the world, I think they know more then anyone else would about the car

I like my warranty too

Good for you!

 

[chuyler1]

Sounds like you need to bleed the brakes on your road car mate!

I think this sums it up. Go test drive a brand new car and before you leave the parking lot you'll realize how sensitive the brakes are. Every car requires a different amount of pressure. Variables like brake pad compound, type of fluid, temperature, and vehicle weight can make brakes on any car feel different.

You have demonstrated that the Loadcell is different from your particular car, but that doesn't mean it is different from a finely tuned race car. I suspect as you break in your equipment it will eventually soften up to a feel that is closer to your broken in real-life car.