The new Cold War(s)

[KSaiyu]

Following on from the other thread, it seems to me there has been a recent intensification in clashes between various ideologies. Some are more overt, and some pose more of a threat than others.

Russia vs The West

Perhaps the most obvious when looking at global politics, and certainly the most recognised. It could be argued the original Cold War never ended, but events since the Ukrainian crisis began in 2013 have brought it front and centre of the global stage. Other countries have hosted "battlegrounds" for the ideological war between East and West. Even the British military have been involved in a little babysitting

Islam + "The British Left" vs The West

Strange bedfellows these make, although not unexpected. Both aim for a revolution in the current political landscape and both purport to stand up for the victims. The Left have been complicit in cover ups recently in Brtain, of which 2 are notable: Trojan Horse and the Rochdale abuse scandal. Indeed press coverage shone a light but provides little comfort as the problems remain:

Sarah Hewitt-Clarkson, of Anderton Park Primary School in Birmingham, said: “Trojan horse has not gone away. Those of us who were involved, we knew it was the tip of the iceberg.

“We still have dead animals hung on the gates of schools, dismembered cats on playgrounds. We have petitions outside schools, objecting to teachers teaching against homophobia.

“We have death threats on Facebook, for example towards me, ‘or any headteacher who teaches my children it’s alright to be gay will be at the end of my shotgun’.

“This has not gone away. All the behaviours and things we saw before are still there. So to have promises that have been broken, not followed through are absolutely unhelpful, unsupportive and have left open gaps for certain individuals to start up again.” http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/education/article4429424.ece

With news that Miliband has promised to make "Islamophobia" a crime and Labour's biggest donor pledging support for the disgraced mayor of Tower Hamlets, this alliance shows no sign of breaking.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...om-Watson-attend-segregated-Muslim-rally.html

Hindu Nationalists vs everyone else

http://www.newsx.com/national/1897-the-rise-of-hindu-nationalism-the-rise-of-bharatiya-janata-party

Hindu nationalism has exploded in the past decade or so, and attacks on Muslims and Christians have continued unabated with a report claiming over 600 attacks had occurred in less than a year (over 400 or so against Muslims) The rise in popularity culminated in the election of Prime Minister Narendra Modi - himself no stranger to controversy after his "involvement" in the Gujurat riots of 2002 that killed more than 2000 Muslims. He has apparently attracted the ire of Al-Qaeda, and Indian Muslims complain of being treated as criminals in their own country. This week there have been calls from the more right wing for sterilisation of Muslims and Christians.

The rise of "extremism" in Europe

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/pegida-syriza-rise-radical-europe-1486915

From Syriza to Pegida, Podemos to UKIP, parties at extreme ends of the political spectrum are seizing on the turmoil Europe finds itself in. The British election is days away with the possible outcome of Nationlists gaining real influence in Westminster whilst in France the founder of Front National has been suspended over anti-semitic remarks. The next few years could see a historic shift in European policy as each member struggles with what's best for its own interests.

Any I missed, or thoughts about the relative scale compared to past decades?

 

[JKgo]

....The beauty of inter-connected world: you end up getting bombarded with info. Some out of context, some overblown, some underplayed. Sigh....

All I can say is....The Biblical End Of The World Confirmed...

 

[KSaiyu]

I wouldn't say the end of the world, rather the end of pulling the wool over people's eyes. Tribal loyalty is still strong, no matter what Political Correctness has us believe.

 

[TenEightyOne]

As ever you seem to have cobbled together a load of facts and made them into a single knobbly strand.

An intensification of inter-ideological clashes? I think you can go at least as far back as the Russian occupation of Afghanistan to see some hardcore Islamic terrorism in action in Europe. The same is true of genocides in Africa, Cambodia, the list probably goes on.

Scrambling jets to accompany the aircraft of "enemy" militaries in international airspace is nothing new. While Russia may have increased the number of such flights recently they've been going on since the early 60s. Since during the height of the last Cold War in fact, maybe this isn't a new one but a simple segue of acts? Be careful with the "bomber" definition too; Bear is a clever platform.

Some Islamic parents take a hard line (not a uniquely Islaamic approach) and reject the teaching of certain beliefs. Are they really so different from the parents who picketed schools over healthy eating, the schools that were boycotted over their refusals to teach local languages, the schools that were vilified for cancelling Hallowe'en for religious reasons? Or are the Islamic parents simply in your sights again?

Here's my take on it along with some guesses and sweeping generalisations; I think you come across as rather young and naive (no offense intended), I think the wham-bam of buzz-fed-click-bomb news makes you think that, like, really bad **** is happening and it's like all new and massive, right?

Well... no. Balances shift and change, the world evolves, society evolves, but really you're blowing smoke up the arse of an idea that really seems to centre around one thing; for whatever reason you've been told that Islam is the greatest evil ever and you believe it.

This thread seems like the flip-side of that ghastly "Christian Persecuted The People World Most" thread.

That brings me to

The Left have been complicit in cover ups recently in Brtain, of which 2 are notable: Trojan Horse and the Rochdale abuse scandal.

How were The Left (and who do you actually think 'The Left' is?) specifically complicit? The thing that allowed PVA to operate was a Conservtive/Liberal invention and they were the particular defenders of them... you coudn't call either of those particularly left-wing.

...the disgraced mayor of Tower Hamlets,

This is an interesting case, not only Len McCluskey is speaking in favour of a proper investigation, lots of other people are adding their voices. Personally I feel that democracy has to be sacred above all else and while Len Mac is a certifiable leftist I agree when he says that all attacks on democratic votes should be guarded against. You're confusing his defence of democratic due process with personal support for Rahman.

 

[KSaiyu]

Before I respond to the rest, you do realise that "lots of other people" are George Galloway and Ken Livingstone. And no, I'm not confusing his "defence of democratic due process with personal support for Rahman":

Earlier, Andrew Murray, the union’s chief of staff, told the rally in Stepney Green: “I am not speaking in a personal capacity, I am speaking on behalf of the union … and I am sending a message of support from our general secretary, Len McCluskey. Unite is proud to associate ourselves with Lutfur Rahman.”

He called the judgment “an undemocratic assault on the people of Tower Hamlets” which was both “racist” and “Islamophobic”.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Before I respond to the rest, you do realise that "lots of other people" are George Galloway and Ken Livingstone. And no, I'm not confusing his "defence of democratic due process with personal support for Rahman":

Your quote didn't show that, it showed that the union were prepared to be associated with him at this time.

Still, when I might be wrong I might be wrong. I'll back down on the Lufar Rahman thing, I always accepted in our discussions that he was a crook. My concern remains about legislative intervention in democratic process. After 30 mins reading the documentation... it was the right choice. Still doesn't prove your larger agenda though, in my opinion

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And on the theme of the other thread:

The windiest militant trash
Important Persons shout
Is not so crude as our wish:
What mad Nijinsky wrote
About Diaghilev
Is true of the normal heart;
For the error bred in the bone
Of each woman and each man
Craves what it cannot have,
Not universal love
But to be loved alone.

And also:

And the investigator peers through his instruments
At the inhuman provinces, the virile bacillus
Or enormous Jupiter finished:
"But the lives of my friends. I inquire. I inquire."

And the poor in their fireless lodgings, dropping the sheets
Of the evening paper: "Our day is our loss. O show us
History the operator, the
Organiser, Time the refreshing river."

And the nations combine each cry, invoking the life
That shapes the individual belly and orders
The private nocturnal terror:
"Did you not found the city state of the sponge,

"Raise the vast military empires of the shark
And the tiger, establish the robin's plucky canton?
Intervene. O descend as a dove or
A furious papa or a mild engineer, but descend."

 

[Scaff]

Good topic to discuss however I would raise a similar question to the one TenEightlyOne did?

You have European Extremists (to separate them from the right in general), you have Hindu Nationalists (to separate them from Hindus in general) but with Islam and "The Left" you make no such distinction?

Are we to assume that you are claiming that all Muslims are opposed to the West and that all of "The Left" (not sure why they need quote marks either) support them in this?

You seem to forget (as an example) that in Tower Hamlets the main target for allegations of racism was the Labour candidate and that the Labour candidates were vocal in both raising issues around the illegal activity and in support of the court judgement that confirmed it.

To cite Len McCluskey, George Galloway and Ken Livingstone as examples of the mainstream Left is akin to suggesting that Jean-Marie LePenn is representative of the mainstream right.

All I can say is....The Biblical End Of The World Confirmed...

Just no (and the wrong thread if you're serious)

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You have European Extremists (to separate them from the right in general), you have Hindu Nationalists (to separate them from Hindus in general) but with Islam and "The Left" you make no such distinction?

Are we to assume that you are claiming that all Muslims are opposed to the West and that all of "The Left" (not sure why they need quote marks either) support them in this?

Does that surprise you? KSaiyu's dislike of the political left is well-documented. Hence why I quoted Auden.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Be careful with the "bomber" definition too; Bear is a clever platform.

Could be wrong, but I thought it was identified as a Bear-H, which would make it more likely to be a "bomber" than Naval/ASW, Recon or Trainer. Though clearly it's highly unlikely it was actually carrying bombs as a payload.

 

[unit-one]

Could be wrong, but I thought it was identified as a Bear-H, which would make it more likely to be a "bomber" than Naval/ASW, Recon or Trainer. Though clearly it's highly unlikely it was actually carrying bombs as a payload.

On the photo that shows a Bear being escorted by a Typhoon, it's a Tu-95MS - "Dubna" (Дубна) written on the nose. It's a strategic bomber- rocket carrier.

EDIT: NATO name is Bear-H, you are right.

 

[JKgo]

@Scaff .....Sarcasm....

 

[TenEightyOne]

Could be wrong, but I thought it was identified as a Bear-H, which would make it more likely to be a "bomber" than Naval/ASW, Recon or Trainer. Though clearly it's highly unlikely it was actually carrying bombs as a payload.

On the photo that shows a Bear being escorted by a Typhoon, it's a Tu-95MS - "Dubna" (Дубна) written on the nose. It's a strategic bomber- rocket carrier.

EDIT: NATO name is Bear-H, you are right.

All correct - I should clarify what I meant; when the mainstream folk press say "bomber chased away from British airspace" they're literally correct but without the explanation that a) These planes (as you note) are almost certainly not carrying bombs, b) They never make it into UK airspace, they prefer to fly alongside and c) There's a good tactical reason for doing this apart from a show of strength.

An explanation that all opponents like to light up the enemy's acquisition systems as often as possible to see what they can do (in addition to making the obvious show of strength) is nowhere near as impressive as leaving the readers with the impression that those dastardly Sovs are carrying bombs above England green on a daily basis.

What they also fail to explain, as an aside, is that a Bear of this type (a Kent carrier) is likely to have delivered its payload loooong before it gets to the photo-opportunity on the border of any country's airspace. Once they're that close they pose no threat, the payload is gone and engaging them is relatively easy for any modern fighter wing.

 

[squadops]

I googled the image and found quite a few articles claiming the plane was carrying an Unarmed nuclear missile. These things are nothing new as noted, Putin flexes a bit and the cool part is the response time.

It was reported that the missile was not armed and the aircraft’s crew would have required a direct order from Russian leader Vladimir Putin before making it live.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...rish-air-space-had-nuclear-weapon-312161.html

 

[KSaiyu]

Yeah to be honest it was more for dramatic effect. I should have used a picture from the Ukraine conflict in the OP.

Good topic to discuss however I would raise a similar question to the one TenEightlyOne did?

You have European Extremists (to separate them from the right in general), you have Hindu Nationalists (to separate them from Hindus in general) but with Islam and "The Left" you make no such distinction?

Are we to assume that you are claiming that all Muslims are opposed to the West and that all of "The Left" (not sure why they need quote marks either) support them in this?

You seem to forget (as an example) that in Tower Hamlets the main target for allegations of racism was the Labour candidate and that the Labour candidates were vocal in both raising issues around the illegal activity and in support of the court judgement that confirmed it.

To cite Len McCluskey, George Galloway and Ken Livingstone as examples of the mainstream Left is akin to suggesting that Jean-Marie LePenn is representative of the mainstream right.

Not all, just like not all Hindu Nationalists are wanting forced sterilisation. I'm grouping out of convenience.

 

[Liquid]

I'm grouping out of convenience.

But why for some groups but not others?

 

[KSaiyu]

What do you mean? "The Left" + Islam as opposed to which. You can't group the Hindu Nationalists with Russia - likewise you can't group "The extremists" with Islam. I lumped UKIP + Syriza together as well, and they're hardly in cahoots....

 

[Scaff]

Not all, just like not all Hindu Nationalists are wanting forced sterilisation. I'm grouping out of convenience.

Hindu nationalists is still a sub group of Hindu's. Islam and The left are not.

By all means leave it as it is, but be aware that all it will result in is challenges to it, the assumption that you wish to group them all together and assumptions of bias (as doing so has brought in the past).

What do you mean? "The Left" + Islam as opposed to which. You can't group the Hindu Nationalists with Russia - likewise you can't group "The extremists" with Islam. I lumped UKIP + Syriza together as well, and they're hardly in cahoots....

No one said they were, however why not say Radical Islam or Islamic Extremists? Why not the far left or militant socialists?

 

[KSaiyu]

That's because you can't break down Islam into Islamists, nor "the Left" into extreme Left, Labour only or mainstream Left. With Hindu Nationalists you can separate it from Hinduism at this stage....

If you look at the march posted you wouldn't call them Islamists. Likewise the bottom picture is a Labour meeting, hardly extreme

 

[Scaff]

That's because you can't break down Islam into Islamists, nor "the Left" into extreme Left, Labour only or mainstream Left. With Hindu Nationalists you can....

Nonsense. I've just done so above.

 

[KSaiyu]

So you'd have to call Ed Miliband "far left" or a "militant socialist"....

 

[Scaff]

So you'd have to call Ed Miliband "far left" or a "militant socialist"....

Well you justifying that claim would then be the point of the thread.

You appear to be falling into the same trap you did with the 'Most Persecuted' thread, in which you have chosen what will be and assume that will be accepted regardless. That's not how threads in this part of the site work.

All you have cited about Moses Miliband so far is that he wants to legislate against Islamaphobia, now how 'radical' that idea would be depends on what definition of Islamaphobia you use. However as far as I am aware he hasn't supported the rise of an Islamic Europe, indicated he wants a coalition with ISIS or anything close?

DC gave into a European referendum to keep the more extreme elements of the Tories on side, given your presumed logic here that puts them in the same class as UKIP? So how about we change European extremists to "The Right"?

 

[huskeR32]

[W]ho do you actually think 'The Left' is?

I'd echo this question.

@KSaiyu, it sounds like you just ingest a bunch of Fox News all day, and then come here and barf it all back up. You use the term "the left" as if it's a catch-all term for everything that's bad, an automatic way to identify the wrong side of everything. It comes off as extremely narrow-minded, and makes you look utterly incapable of thinking for yourself.

 

[Joel]

That's because you can't break down Islam into Islamists,

That is an extremely bold claim.

 

[KSaiyu]

That is an extremely bold claim.

I think we can safely say that now.

Well you justifying that claim would then be the point of the thread.

You appear to be falling into the same trap you did with the 'Most Persecuted' thread, in which you have chosen what will be and assume that will be accepted regardless. That's not how threads in this part of the site work.

All you have cited about Moses Miliband so far is that he wants to legislate against Islamaphobia, now how 'radical' that idea would be depends on what definition of Islamaphobia you use. However as far as I am aware he hasn't supported the rise of an Islamic Europe, indicated he wants a coalition with ISIS or anything close?

He is promising the criminalisation of thought should Labour win.

A quick google gives "Islamophobia" as:

Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims.

I'm not hanging around to find out what his definition of "Islamophobia" is. Also, ISIS hadn't been mentioned until now.

DC gave into a European referendum to keep the more extreme elements of the Tories on side, given your presumed logic here that puts them in the same class as UKIP? So how about we change European extremists to "The Right"?

I dunno, I'd still class them centre-right like The Socialist party of France is centre-left. Not sure how a referendum indicates otherwise

 

[Joel]

I think we can safely say that now.

On what grounds? Also, am I part of "the Left?"

 

[KSaiyu]

It's more of a British thing, good point. I will change.

------

Does anyone anticipate this could spill into a conflict? We are already at war with ISIS, although that is not a war with Islam (or the Left).

I see trouble brewing particularly in India.

 

[Scaff]

He is promising the criminalisation of thought should Labour win.

Citation required.

A quick google gives "Islamophobia" as:

Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims.

I'm not hanging around to find out what his definition of "Islamophobia" is. Also, ISIS hadn't been mentioned until now.

In other words you can't answer the question but will stick with your own prejudices and be damned with anything else.

Once again "the left" (you still need to explain those quote marks) and Islam is not a single homogeneous group with a singular ideology; no more than the right is.

I dunno, I'd still class them centre-right like The Socialist party of France is centre-left. Not sure how a referendum indicates otherwise

Ah so France is allowed a distinction but the UK isn't; and nor are those damn Muslims lump 'em all in with ISIS, no difference anyway.

It's more of a British thing, good point. I will change.

Bollocks, you're now getting to the point of simply being absurd!

"The Left" (quote marks - important - still have no idea why) is not a single homogeneous group in the UK or anywhere for that matter, nor is Islam and as long as your painfully obvious bias is all over this thread it isn't going to be productive.

Either provide suitable evidence that "The Left" and Islam are singular entities with a single worldview and no graduation of opinion or ideology or the key proposition you are making in the opening post is simply going to be your undoing in any attempt to discuss these particular areas.

 

[KSaiyu]

Why is there no issue with using "Russia" and not "Russian Nationalists"....

It should be obvious that I'd then have to change every other title....

"A sizeable proportion of Russian Nationalists" vs "A sizeable proportion of the West" etc etc

 

[Scaff]

Well consistency would be an idea, however with Russia and the West it is arguably a government to government issue at its core.