The Problem with car classes and online racing

[FishHunters]

The problem in GT5 online racing and the car classes assigned by the governing bodies like FIA is that the performance of the cars is vastly different, unless you can place restrictions on them like restrictors. A blatant example of that is the Lister Storm and the Gilet Vertigo. Same class but vastly different cars. Almost equal horse power, but the Vertigo is under 1000kg while the storm is a big fat pig somewhere in the neighborhood of 1400-1500kg. With out restricting it's power the Vertigo would spank the Storm all over the place. In online racing there is no way to fix that. You could mitigate it by making the minimum weight where the Vertigo has to use maximum balast but you're still only talking about 1180kg.

 

[Midnight Snacks]

...right.

 

[mykem]

The problem in GT5 online racing and the car classes assigned by the governing bodies like FIA is that the performance of the cars is vastly different, unless you can place restrictions on them like restrictors. A blatant example of that is the Lister Storm and the Gilet Vertigo. Same class but vastly different cars. Almost equal horse power, but the Vertigo is under 1000kg while the storm is a big fat pig somewhere in the neighborhood of 1400-1500kg. With out restricting it's power the Vertigo would spank the Storm all over the place. In online racing there is no way to fix that. You could mitigate it by making the minimum weight where the Vertigo has to use maximum balast but you're still only talking about 1180kg.

I don't believe the Gilet Vertigo ever competed in the same class as the Lister Storm. While the latter is homologated and competed in both FIA GT1 and GT2, the Vertigo raced in the FIA non-homologated G2 class.

In GT5, the Super GT cars provided they're from the same year, provide the most balanced and actual GT class racing.

 

[FishHunters]

I don't believe the Gilet Vertigo ever competed in the same class as the Lister Storm. While the latter is homologated and competed in both FIA GT1 and GT2, the Vertigo raced in the FIA non-homologated G2 class.

In GT5, the Super GT cars provided they're from the same year, provide the most balanced and actual GT class racing.

The Supers are the only balanced class in GT5 keeping in mind it's not a racing game; but a driving game.

 

[Exorcet]

PP fixes it.

 

[GeneralJesh]

They didn't even race in the same class.
And as Exorcet said there is the Performance Point system that "fixes" that "non" issue.
Do you really think performance balancing is only Power and Weight ?

 

[sdf]

@Exorcet
The PP isnt fixing anything.
With wings in default value:
The Vertigo fully tuned is 959bhp/780kg/650pp , and you can take it as low as 466hp/980kg/584.
The 2j is 650pp, the SLR '03 fully tuned is 648, the woodone supra is about 653pp, RX7 LM race car is 650pp, the nascars are about 650pp, the GT-R v-spec '09 can reach 650.
Plus+ that all the Group C cars can go down to 650pp.

They must add categories.

 

[599GT]

PP fixes it.

No, it doesn't.

I ran a GT1 league with 670pp limit.
Nissan R390 GT1 & AMG Mercedes-Benz CLK-LM were faster than anything else by seconds.
They were formally GT1 cars but technically they were prototypes and that's what OP is saying.
If you make an online league and say, put rules to GT1 cars - you get CLK-LM and R390 which are insane.

I solved this problem by removing those two cars (and further restricting the other fast cars).
Testing is the name of the game.

 

[Exorcet]

@Exorcet
They must add categories.

I agree

No, it doesn't.

I ran a GT1 league with 670pp limit.
Nissan R390 GT1 & AMG Mercedes-Benz CLK-LM were faster than anything else by seconds.
They were formally GT1 cars but technically they were prototypes and that's what OP is saying.
If you make an online league and say, put rules to GT1 cars - you get CLK-LM and R390 which are insane.

I solved this problem by removing those two cars (and further restricting the other fast cars).
Testing is the name of the game.

R390 and CLK aren't GT1. Yes, they ran in a GT1 class, but it's not the same as the class that the Viper GTS-R type cars ran in afterward.

Anyway, PP does pretty much fix same class racing, which is what I thought this thread was about. Without PP, I think the Nismo Z rules Super GT, and the Ford GT Spec II rules GT1, or whatever. PP irons those out pretty well.

It's not flawless; I did have a 600 PP race a while ago where I tried to run the Lexus DTM car against the GT Spec II. It didn't turn out well, although as I kept tuning the gap did close. I switched to a GT500 Lexus and managed to beat the GT which is a much faster car in stock form, and one with more downforce if I remember right.

The Lister/Gillet match up might be another troubled match, but it's not one I'm familiar with. Still it seems like they're not even in the same class to begin with.

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Correct. If the pp system worked as well as some are trying to say it does you would not have certain cars dominating certain classes and for that matter you could race road cars and race cars together... which obviously you can't.
PP can work some of the time, if everyone is picking the same favourites you are going to think the system works pretty well. As soon as you pick something out of left field it falls apart. Worse at either ends of the spectrum also.

 

[maxpontiac]

Performance Points, while not perfect are an excellent indicator of how the cars stack up against each other.

It doesn't factor tires in, so it's a better gauge then the system used on Forza. A "C" class car should never leave that class for "B" because of a tire compound. It doesn't in real life.

For example, by using the FIA GT1 2012 Rules, I have put together a car class that includes the cars in their organization.

Most cars inn the FIA GT1 class are limited to 600 HP and 1250kg weight (yes it varies). Since some of the cars in GT5 cannot get to 1250kg, I have set then entire field at the heaviest-lowest which is 1387kg. So all cars in my version of the GT1 Class have 600 HP and weigh 1387kg.

Surprisingly, the Performance Points for all vehicles are very close. I have yet to test them, but will post my results for feedback from this site.

 

[Exorcet]

Correct. If the pp system worked as well as some are trying to say it does you would not have certain cars dominating certain classes and for that matter you could race road cars and race cars together... which obviously you can't.

PP isn't there to make all cars perform the same, and it shouldn't try to do that. It lets cars keep their traits as much as possible. So a LMP at a certain PP will out corner a Road Car at the same PP since the road car won't have all the aero parts. Are they even? Yes and no. You can make any two cars even by having them race a track where they set the same lap times. But this is hard to do. The LMP will be faster on some tracks and slower on others.

This is something you need to keep in mind when using PP. The inability to match a Fiat 500 with a Audi R10 isn't a flaw. It's something PP wasn't really meant to do.

 

[Tornado]

Same class but vastly different cars.

No they aren't. The Lister is FIA GT, and it is incorrectly modeled to boot. The Vertigo is, I'm pretty sure, Belcar GT, and the top performance level at that.

I ran a GT1 league with 670pp limit.
Nissan R390 GT1 & AMG Mercedes-Benz CLK-LM were faster than anything else by seconds.
They were formally GT1 cars but technically they were prototypes and that's what OP is saying.
If you make an online league and say, put rules to GT1 cars - you get CLK-LM and R390 which are insane.

That sounds like your fault for not specifying the rules better. Not the fault of the game.

 

[599GT]

As much as I know, the CLK-GTR/LM and the R390 GT1 were GT1/GTS.
On paper they're GT1, in practice they're far from GT1.

 

[Exorcet]

On paper they're GT1

A GT1 that is 5000 miles different from the GT1 you're thinking about. GT1 has been used to describe more than one class.

The Toyota GT-One is a GT1. But it's not in the same class as the Viper GTS-R and Corvette C5R which are closer to the type of GT1 you're thinking of.

On paper, the R390 and CLK are very clearly lighter, more powerful, and more aerodynamic than the other "GT1" cars anyway.

 

[599GT]

A GT1 that is 5000 miles different from the GT1 you're thinking about. GT1 has been used to describe more than one class.

The Toyota GT-One is a GT1. But it's not in the same class as the Viper GTS-R and Corvette C5R which are closer to the type of GT1 you're thinking of.

On paper, the R390 and CLK are very clearly lighter, more powerful, and more aerodynamic than the other "GT1" cars anyway.

1998 was the last year of the GT1 I'm talking about.
Toyota GT-One TS020 is a LMGTP car. The '98 model was a GT1.

Car manufacturers used to abuse loopholes in the regulation system. The system got changed in '99 due to that.

 

[FishHunters]

599GT got it right. If you're in a series or league you want cars that perform within 1 sec of each other or less. The advantage shouldn't be the car it should be the driver. The only way to do that in this game is by testing. Because PP doesn't solve the competitive balance. Ran LMP's and though it's a GT1 the Toyo GT-ONE waxed the field using PP. Set it up as 800HP/1000kg and it was closer to even. PP might be fine for an open lobby but for different cars even performance it's got to be HP & Kg. Tires are a given.

 

[Exorcet]

1998 was the last year of the GT1 I'm talking about.
Toyota GT-One TS020 is a LMGTP car. The '98 model was a GT1.

Car manufacturers used to abuse loopholes in the regulation system. The system got changed in '99 due to that.

I know. The thing is, in your GT1 league, apparently no one knew. Else the race would have either consisted of just the R390 and CLK (and the Esperante and F1 GTR I think) or everything else.

but for different cars even performance it's got to be HP & Kg.

That's insane. hp/weight is a terrible system.

Though I think you meant manually assign the hp and weight of each car, which would make sense.