The problem with fixing something after its too late...

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xSNAKEx

xSNAKEx

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All those people who were duping and trading like mad from the day you could, already have completed most of their rare and expensive car garage.

All those people who took it a bit easier and played the game more instead of duping now have to pay the price.

I think the patch was too little too late. It should have been like this day 1 or not at all.
 
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Nail > head.

Yep. It's a mess. Plugging a leak when the ship's already sunk.

Seriously, at this point none of the cars in this game will ever have the intended status/online/community/trade value that PD intended.
 
I agree with your sentiment and the main thrust of your post.

I think they've gone about it the wrong way to be honest. They should have fixed duping, not stopped gifting and this is a quick fix.

However, as a non-duper, I don't feel upset about it. The point is that I know I could have had it easier. I could have earned 20m and then, over a course of weeks, duped until my garage was full. I didn't and I take some satisfaction from the fact that I've earnt the cars I have.

120 cars and counting...and loving every new acquisition.
 
As has already been said, this needed doing within days of the dupe becoming known rather than months after. It's so late coming that it's pretty hilarious that they even bothered. Releasing a "fix" so late when cars have completely lost their value shows just how out of touch PD are.

This game really is a bit of a mess. What it does well it does very well (which is pretty much just the driving model) but so much of it is unfinished, half-baked ideas that never went anywhere.

PD really do need to take some advice from their community as a whole rather than assuming that they know best and don't need any input at all. The game has been improved since release and a lot of the improvements are what people have been talking about on the forums for a long time. Whether those discussions were the stimulus for those ideas ending up in the game is irrelevant; the community knows what it wants, knows what works and could have told PD months before release how to improve their game if they hadn't insisted on maintaining their wall of silence (bordering on arrogance) about the game's content.
 
it's pretty hilarious that they even bothered.
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There was quite a few people out there that were using the line "If it was cheating PD would do something about it".

I think there's an element of "O Rly?" in PD's response.
 
At the same time as releasing this patch, they should have stuck a few more new +1mil cars in the pot. (or even variations).

It would be nice to know that there are cars out there that can only be purchased by luck/time/skill, not trading or duping etc.
 
Rylan
There was quite a few people out there that were using the line "If it was cheating PD would do something about it".

I think there's an element of "O Rly?" in PD's response.
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What's it achieved though? It hasn't taken back all the ill-gotten cars that people acquired. If they wanted to restore any value to the cars and the game's economy then this is what they need to do now (which they obviously can't) or they should have patched it within days of the exploit being known to minimise the damage.

The people who were duping (call it cheating or not) have got their cars, the game economy is meaningless now, and you can't trade expensive cars. That sounds like a bit of a disaster on all fronts.

It's pretty shocking that a team of professional game designers didn't spot this exploit before the game was pressed; although in fairness they didn't spot a lot of things that are wrong with the game.
 
Something has to be broken for it to need fixing. whether people liked duping or not, the simple fact was that it didn't affect anyone apart from the person doing it, although some people liked to think it affected them in some obsure way or another. What PD have done is just made a complete arse of things, a lot of people are seriously pissed off and as people on this thread have said already, it should have been sorted straight away or not at all.
 
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I don't really see the issue...

Either you duped before, which means you got something out of it while it lasted. But you can't say you didn't realise that it wasn't something PD intended, and as such they might put a stop to it at some point.

Or you didn't, which means you were either against it and are now glad they stopped it (better late then never), or you just didn't care... so you still don't.

the argument "but it's devaluated cars and blablabla" isn't really valid. It's not like an an MMO where items are the only goal in the game. People were never meant to get so many cars so fast, but it doesn't change your game that they did.

Cheating is a problem in competitive multiplayer-games because it ruins the competitive element. The only competitive multiplayer element in this game is racing. Yes, someone might now own lots of fast cars... but they can only race one at a time, and getting a few fast cars to compete is not really hard without cheating either. The X2010? it's ridiculous anyway, if someone uses that to beat your "normal" car, it's "cheating" whichever way he got it...

Of course, if you see "collecting cars" as a competitive game as well, then maybe you have a point in saying duping was a problem... but seriously, who cares which cars someone else has?

It's like owning a Lambo in real life, payed for with hard-earned cash, and complaining someone else bought one with lottery money... Who cares? Does it ruin the pleasure of owning a Lambo? I.e., is your garage worth less to you because someone else has a better one without having worked for it?

If that's the case, it's all just about Epeen... and if so, I'd be happy for them to lift the restriction again, 'cause Epeen is nonsense ;)

edit: for the record, I do think they should have prevented duping from the start. Not just by technically preventing it, but also by making the game so much fun to play that you wouldn't feel the need to
 
Khoin
I don't really see the issue...

Either you duped before, which means you got something out of it while it lasted. But you can't say you didn't realise that it wasn't something PD intended, and as such they might put a stop to it at some point.

Or you didn't, which means you were either against it and are now glad they stopped it (better late then never), or you just didn't care... so you still don't.

the argument "but it's devaluated cars and blablabla" isn't really valid. It's not like an an MMO where items are the only goal in the game. People were never meant to get so many cars so fast, but it doesn't change your game that they did.

Cheating is a problem in competitive multiplayer-games because it ruins the competitive element. The only competitive multiplayer element in this game is racing. Yes, someone might now own lots of fast cars... but they can only race one at a time, and getting a few fast cars to compete is not really hard without cheating either. The X2010? it's ridiculous anyway, if someone uses that to beat your "normal" car, it's "cheating" whichever way he got it...

Of course, if you see "collecting cars" as a competitive game as well, then maybe you have a point in saying duping was a problem... but seriously, who cares which cars someone else has?

It's like owning a Lambo in real life, payed for with hard-earned cash, and complaining someone else bought one with lottery money... Who cares? Does it ruin the pleasure of owning a Lambo? I.e., is your garage worth less to you because someone else has a better one without having worked for it?

If that's the case, it's all just about Epeen... and if so, I'd be happy for them to lift the restriction again, 'cause Epeen is nonsense ;)

edit: for the record, I do think they should have prevented duping from the start. Not just by technically preventing it, but also by making the game so much fun to play that you wouldn't feel the need to
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Your last sentence hit the nail right on the head.
 
Khoin
edit: for the record, I do think they should have prevented duping from the start. Not just by technically preventing it, but also by making the game so much fun to play that you wouldn't feel the need to
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I think the point was that the goal of "ownership" of vehicles was a long term one. It'd give people a reason to play for years (online and A & B-Spec) to continue earning credits. Once people realized they could exploit the system to duplicate cars and amass everything as quickly as possible, that thought went out the door for some people.

Honestly, I've never wanted to trade or duplicate cars. I know I'll be playing this until GT6 comes out. Not having a car that I want gives me a goal to continue playing for.
 
^ I always have said I don't care that people are duping. I never did it, but what other people do doesn't affect me, personally.

But I still think this is a laughably weak and late response to an issue. It just makes them look incompetent (and they obviously intended for cars to have a true value). It was clearly a problem for them, or they wouldn't have made this patch. It's like saying "we are prohibiting all transactions over $100 because we just found out people have been printing their own money for 6 months", at a point when every person guilty of it already owns 10 gold plated houses.
 
Slurm
^ I always have said I don't care that people are duping. It doesn't affect me, personally.

But I still think this is a laughably weak and late response to an issue. It just makes them look incompetent. It was clearly a problem for them, or they wouldn't have made this patch. It's like saying "we are prohibiting all transactions over $100 because we just found out people have been printing their own money for 6 months", at a point when every person guilty of it already owns 10 gold plated houses.
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Ya, but when people starting duping X1's and selling them on ebay for $50, that's when it becomes an issue. I don't think they care so much that people are cheating themselves out of the experience of the game, I think they care that they're cheating other people out of money.
 
I don't think PD ever wanted to create a GT5 economy , It was a GIFT option , so you might help a friend etc .. The "economy" and the marketplace is something that the users created , so they fix pretty much makes sense because now your friends can borrow any car they need like the FGT for example.

The problem here is that the game was really boring if you wanted to collect every car ( at least the worthy ones ) , why would I want to go around an oval for thousand of times just to get the cars I want , I hate that track , I can't complete even 20 laps in the endurance race because I get bored and quit

I did dupe the sh&t of some cars and honestly I think that if it wasn't for it I would have stoped playing the game long ago , but I'm having a pretty good time with it now , I just do the seasonal events to get money and have some fun and when I complete them I go back to tuning a car and taking it around the ring endlessly trying to get better lap times

All of the duping wouldn't have been an issue if getting them "honestly" were any fun from the beginning at least something like GT4 were you could get prize cars twice and sell them , plus one make races , driving missions etc ... Not driving around a circle for the rest of your life.
 
xSNAKEx
All those people who were duping and trading like mad from the day you could do it already have completed most of their rare and expensive car car garage.

All those people who took it a bit easier and played the game more instead of duping now have to pay the price.

I think the patch was too little too late. It should have been like this day 1 or not at all.
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Agreed. 👍

This update, at this point in time is ridiculous. I've pretty much completed this game and have all the cars I could ever want, except some zero mile versions of cars I currently have (yes, I'm one of those weird zero mile collectors).

I feel bad for the folks that haven't completed their car collections yet. I did quite a bit of trading with others to complete mine. It gave me a sense of community. Helping each other to achieve that goal was an added bonus to the regular (very short) game play. That's no longer possible for the cars that are worth collecting. If the game was longer, more challenging, provided a decent amount of credits for each win and provided BETTER reward cars folks wouldn't have felt the need to trade, dupe or whatever to complete their collections. :indiff:

My advice to PD, instead of putting a restriction on gifting at this point, why not resolve the root of the problem altogether by giving realistic prize money (credits) and some decent reward cars. Remove the 20,000,000 credit cap! If folks earned enough credits to BUY the cars they want, they would have never started duping and trading. Also, maybe you should put the effort into creating many, many more A-Spec races (not just the seasonal events) so folks don't have to grind to earn credits. Also why not make the engine/chassis rebuilds more affordable? Those of us trading for zero mile cars wouldn't need them if the engine/chassis rebuild was more affordable! Those ideas would have negated the need to trade, at least for me. Funny but I never once traded or bought a car in the marketplace in Forza (any version) because the payout was large enough that I could buy whatever I wanted, afford to upgrade it and still have plenty of credits left over.

Ending this on a positive note, I've met a lot of great people through the marketplace here. My thanks to all of them! :)
 
BETOGTR
I don't think PD ever wanted to create a GT5 economy , It was a GIFT option , so you might help a friend etc .. The "economy" and the marketplace is something that the users created , so they fix pretty much makes sense because now your friends can borrow any car they need like the FGT for example.

The problem here is that the game was really boring if you wanted to collect every car ( at least the worthy ones ) , why would I want to go around an oval for thousand of times just to get the cars I want , I hate that track , I can't complete even 20 laps in the endurance race because I get bored and quit

I did dupe the sh&t of some cars and honestly I think that if it wasn't for it I would have stoped playing the game long ago , but I'm having a pretty good time with it now , I just do the seasonal events to get money and have some fun and when I complete them I go back to tuning a car and taking it around the ring endlessly trying to get better lap times

All of the duping wouldn't have been an issue if getting them "honestly" were any fun from the beginning at least something like GT4 were you could get prize cars twice and sell them , plus one make races , driving missions etc ... Not driving around a circle for the rest of your life.
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Well said! 👍
 
charliec
http://cgi.ebay.com/GT5-RED-BULL-X2...2448?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item4157151040

These won't be up for too much longer, but you can see the point it's gotten to. People are boo-hoo'ing about not being able to trade cars, but PD didn't do it piss everyone off. They did it because people were making money off duped cars and PD had to stop it somehow.
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I seriously doubt that this is the reason they put an end to gifting (of the worthy cars). They did it because of the folks complaining incessantly about duping. Well, all the folks that have been complaining have gotten their wish. I hope you all enjoy your daily grind!

EDIT: Sorry about those rude remarks folks. After reading it over, it sounds very snarky! I'd just delete it but others have already quoted off of this message so that would not be appropriate.
 
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BlueSky
I hope you all enjoy your daily grind!
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It's not a daily grind, I race for fun and buying nice cars is a bonus that comes from the races not something that is crucial in the game, also PD have made it easy for people to get money now and even the X2010 is easy to get since last week when the bronze times went up by about 10 seconds.
 
BlueSky
I seriously doubt that this is the reason they put an end to gifting (of the worthy cars). They did it because of the folks complaining incessantly about duping. Well, all the folks that have been complaining have gotten their wish. I hope you all enjoy your daily grind!
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Are you no longer able to duplicate cars? I thought they just prevented the transfer of cars over 1M credts?
 
BlueSky
I seriously doubt that this is the reason they put an end to gifting (of the worthy cars). They did it because of the folks complaining incessantly about duping. Well, all the folks that have been complaining have gotten their wish. I hope you all enjoy your daily grind!
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I don't really think so. I think they stopped duping because it's not something they intended. One of the problems with people being able to cheat their way to completion, in any game, is that they will then often turn around and go "hey, it's all done too fast and I didn't have a lot of fun". In that respect, preventing cheating is beneficial to the quality of a game.

However, I also think that GT5 suffers from a lack of "fun" activities that grant rewards. In my opinion, this problem could be fixed by adding a "custom A-Spec" option, where you select a (set of) track(s), a number of conditions (drivetrain, PP, aspiration, country, era, type of car, etc.) and a number of laps. And then you race for money. Voila, endless offline racing fun.

The biggest problem for me is not having to race for months or even years to be able to afford all the cars I want. The problem is that if I want to race a certain car, there's often only a few A-Spec races that I can do it in. Not even taking into account whether or not it's competitive racing. Out of those A-Spec races available, any below expert also grant very low rewards.

Besides the custom A-Spec, they could easily add other fun ways to earn credits and XP. Why not get some credits and experience simply for running practice laps? Right now, I never do practice laps, I simply enter an A-Spec race regardless of whether I'll easily win or don't stand a chance, because at least I then get some creds and XP... There are many more possibilities, but they've probably all been discussed in these forums before.

Bottom line is: duping wasn't intended. So now it's fixed. Too late? Yes. Does the game still have other issues? Yes. Did duping ruin anything? Not really, except for those who now have all the cars they want and see no reason for playing anymore, I guess.
 
charliec
I think the point was that the goal of "ownership" of vehicles was a long term one. It'd give people a reason to play for years (online and A & B-Spec) to continue earning credits. Once people realized they could exploit the system to duplicate cars and amass everything as quickly as possible, that thought went out the door for some people.
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Play for years? This game is way too short. For me, playing for years would involve only one thing... constant grinding. That's not playing, that's doing something you've already done over and over and over and over and over again. That's boring as heck. I've done it for almost 2 months now because I completed every A-Spec and B-Spec race that I was going to ever do in a very short time. If GT5 had many, many more A-Spec and B-Spec events to complete, higher prize money (credits) and no cap on the amount of credits, then your statement would have been completely true and I would have agreed with you.

I think the reason for the trading and duping was because the game lacked in so many areas. It became very boring very quickly to a lot of people and the only way other than grinding to acquire the cars they wanted, was to dupe and trade. I seriously don't blame anyone for doing this. I've done the grinding thing to acquire cars that I wanted and it's really, really boring!
 
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BlueSky
Play for years? This game is way too short. For me, playing for years would involve only one thing... constant grinding. That's not playing, that's doing something you've already done over and over and over and over and over again. That's boring as heck. I've done it for almost 2 months now because I completed every A-Spec and B-Spec race that I was going to ever do in a very short time. If GT5 had many, many more A-Spec and B-Spec events to complete, higher prize money (credits) and no cap on the amount of credits, then your statement would have been completely true and I would have agreed with you.
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Between online gameplay, weekly/biweekly online event updates, special events, time/drift trials, etc, it's not as though the game is not constantly changing. If you restrict yourself to A-Spec and B-Spec and you're just playing them over and over with the intent to earn money, then yea...that's grinding. That's your choice though.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have double the number of A-Spec events, but honestly, I spend a lot of my time in practice mode, time trials, etc because I have a lot of the cars I want and I'm more interested in just driving them. I'm in no hurry to finish.
 
Khoin
I don't really think so. I think they stopped duping because it's not something they intended. One of the problems with people being able to cheat their way to completion, in any game, is that they will then often turn around and go "hey, it's all done too fast and I didn't have a lot of fun". In that respect, preventing cheating is beneficial to the quality of a game.

However, I also think that GT5 suffers from a lack of "fun" activities that grant rewards. In my opinion, this problem could be fixed by adding a "custom A-Spec" option, where you select a (set of) track(s), a number of conditions (drivetrain, PP, aspiration, country, era, type of car, etc.) and a number of laps. And then you race for money. Voila, endless offline racing fun.

The biggest problem for me is not having to race for months or even years to be able to afford all the cars I want. The problem is that if I want to race a certain car, there's often only a few A-Spec races that I can do it in. Not even taking into account whether or not it's competitive racing. Out of those A-Spec races available, any below expert also grant very low rewards.

Besides the custom A-Spec, they could easily add other fun ways to earn credits and XP. Why not get some credits and experience simply for running practice laps? Right now, I never do practice laps, I simply enter an A-Spec race regardless of whether I'll easily win or don't stand a chance, because at least I then get some creds and XP... There are many more possibilities, but they've probably all been discussed in these forums before.

Bottom line is: duping wasn't intended. So now it's fixed. Too late? Yes. Does the game still have other issues? Yes. Did duping ruin anything? Not really, except for those who now have all the cars they want and see no reason for playing anymore, I guess.
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You make a good point. These are all very good ideas. Thanks for pointing them out. I sure hope PD is reading these forums because the features you've mentioned above sound really great.
 
charliec
Between online gameplay, weekly/biweekly online event updates, special events, time/drift trials, etc, it's not as though the game is not constantly changing. If you restrict yourself to A-Spec and B-Spec and you're just playing them over and over with the intent to earn money, then yea...that's grinding. That's your choice though.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have double the number of A-Spec events, but honestly, I spend a lot of my time in practice mode, time trials, etc because I have a lot of the cars I want and I'm more interested in just driving them. I'm in no hurry to finish.
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I hear you. I agree, the seasonal events are a nice addition but hopefully one of these updates will provide many more a-spec, b-spec, special events, etc...

Since I had completed the core game, it was my choice to grind for credits so that I could fortify my garage. But I seriously think a game is flawed when this type of thing becomes necessary. Yes I see your point now about playing for years, if only to log on once a week and do the seasonal events so you can buy a few more cars.
 

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