"The real driving simulator" ?

[pafal]

There has been a lot of talk about the driving styles of players - and what is real and what is not.

No question that the driving style where you trail-brake and powerslide is faster around Silverstone on those (poor) tyres. I have a lot of respect for the guys (and girls) that do those 2.16, 2.17, 2.18 laps - they show incredible control of the simulated car, no doubt.

Personally I dont have the skills for sliding, and my experience with cars (games or not) makes me keep traction on the tires - its a big no-no if i loose traction (in my head) - so i cannot get under 2.20 :-)

so my question is this:

If you took a real Nissan 370z to the real Silverstone track, would the trail-braking and sliding be faster than keeping traction on the tires at all times ?

My gut, and watching a lot of F1, WTCC, DTM, Le Mans, Top Gear and Fifth gear, tells me that traction is king for a fast lap....under any circumstances

But not in "The real driving simulator?" ;-)

Just a thought

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

In real life, you'll lose time if you slide/lose traction, while trailbraking is used widely by real drivers and help in corner entry under heavy braking. Watch youtube videos : Best Motoring and Hot Version races - track battle at Tsukuba, Fuji, Motegi and Touge battles, when you slide, you get left behind.

 

[BanditKarter22]

Maybe sliding to this extent would not be as fast in real life, but any lap that's on the limit IRL will contain a lot of very small slides.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Record lap runs in real life - Tsukuba :

Tuned FF on street legal tires semi slick Advan tires :




JGTC GT500 Arta NSX lap record at Tsukuba :


Barely any hint of slides, even the tiniest amount. Granted if Tsuchiya's NSX slide slightly on some of the slower corner, he would lose a lot of time and won't be likely to break into 51s.

 

[BanditKarter22]

The slides when you're on the limit in real life are so small that you can't see them from outside the car.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The slides when you're on the limit in real life are so small that you can't see them from outside the car.

But you can see it from the cockpit view when the driver countersteer, right ? Anyway what I was referring is not those minimal slip angle, but entry slides and exit slides that requires some visible countersteer.

 

[Third Reign]

Sure letting tyres slide on circuit racing is very rare, but if you look at rally cars are sliding all over the place. And I don't mean gravel sections.

The fact that we don't see drivers sliding around the rear is mostly due to the downforce and aerodynamics. A F1 in Monaco slides around Grand Hotel or whatever it is called today due to turning radius limitations.

If you look at touring car series with low downforce cars slide a lot more. It is not as pronounced as in GT5/Academy but apparent when you look at all the front driven cars locking up the rears.

If you follow motorcycle racing, trailbraking with the rear swinging sideways is also very common. Just look for some youtube videos of Kacy Stoner "drifting" as they falsely claim it. The slip angle there is almost comparable to what GT5 shows. Just like with cars it is used to get the bike pointed the right direction earlier.

Here a small example

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Sure letting tyres slide on circuit racing is very rare, but if you look at rally cars are sliding all over the place. And I don't mean gravel sections.

The fact that we don't see drivers sliding around the rear is mostly due to the downforce and aerodynamics. A F1 in Monaco slides around Grand Hotel or whatever it is called today due to turning radius limitations.

If you look at touring car series with low downforce cars slide a lot more. It is not as pronounced as in GT5/Academy but apparent when you look at all the front driven cars locking up the rears.

If you follow motorcycle racing, trailbraking with the rear swinging sideways is also very common. Just look for some youtube videos of Kacy Stoner "drifting" as they falsely claim it. The slip angle there is almost comparable to what GT5 shows. Just like with cars it is used to get the bike pointed the right direction earlier.

Here a small example

The problem is will those slide allow them to get best lap times possible ? If you see Tsuchiya's lap at Tsukuba with Arta NSX, did he even slide the rear or did he countersteered at all ? He's aiming for breaking into 51s, we all know he loves to slide/drift, but he purposely drove grip style on that record lap.

His Spoon EK lap also has no slides Most Best Motoring track battles follows grip philosophy, they rarely slides, and when they do, often they lose place on the next straight or gets slower lap times at Tsukuba.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Maybe sliding to this extent would not be as fast in real life, but any lap that's on the limit IRL will contain a lot of very small slides.

Since I have raced nine seasons of SCCA Club Racing and have 25+ podium finishes, I will share my perspective on the differences that I see from real life to the GT6 time trial. This statement by Bandit Karter is very true. I would call it slip is fast, not slide is fast. Ever heard the term "a talking tire is a happy tire; a tire that is quiet and a tire that is screaming are unhappy." That sweet spot is the tire slipping just the right amount - a happy tire.

I control the car a lot by feel through my hips and sound of the tires. Feel through the seat is impossible in Gran Turismo and tire sound is not done very well. What am i listening for? It's different for each type of tire. A street tire like a Toyo RA1 will make a low almost growl when it is approaching the limit, a nice mid range tone when on the limit and a higher pitched almost screechy sound when you've gone too far. Combine that with the angle of your steering input and the feeling in your hips... that feeling that the car is dug down into the racing surface. A good handling car will feel like a slot car, like it is on rails. You can feel that pulled down into the track sensation and if the tires sound right, you can attack every corner with high confidence. Loss of grip with a good handling car is gradual and easy to stay on top of.

If one end of the car isn't making any noise or one end is screeching, that's a warning sign and as a driver you need to react and correct. With a street tire there is a large window of opportunity between the low growl and the scream. It is much easier to save a car on street tires if you are on top of how the tires are sounding. The street tire talks to you a lot, gives a lot of feedback. When on race tires, that window is cut by about 2/3rds. I have to be way more on top of what the tires are telling me and make much quicker decisions about correcting.

I raced go karts for a bit on very short courses. There was a definite line between grip and slide. If you crossed over into slide, you didn't wildly spin out like in the game, the kart just kicked sideways a bit, you kept your foot to the floor and counter steered, but you just cost yourself 0.5 seconds.

Same thing in racing my Honda Civic when I first started or with the Miata I drive now. If you stay within the limit.. happy tires talking to you, not screaming, you will be fast. It's that dug down into the track feeling. If the rear kicks out and you have to counter steer, you just lost half a second.

What I have noticed with this GT6 GTA time trial is that many of the indicators are missing. I have turned the sound way up (music always off) and the tires don't give me any warning before they are going to change from on the limit to spinning out. The only warning in the game is the tire graphic way off to the left of the screen. It's not practical to watch that image when your eyes need to be far up down the road. My biggest gripe with the time trial is that there is so little chance of saving the car and only costing yourself that half second. I am either on the lap or sideways.

I am amazed at the top times. These guys have really perfected the art of taking in all of the visual cues. Correction, I think that they are driving more from memory than from the visual cues. I found that I got faster by remember how hard I could push the car in certain corners, not by seeing what is actually happening with the car. Smooth inputs and memory of what you have done 500 times over seems to be what make you good in the game.

Vs. real life. Aggressive turn in, slide through apex, catch the car on exit is not always the fastest way around in real life.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Great explanation Hami I think when you countersteer to correct the car's angle of attack, that's when most of the time you are losing speed and time. I know about slip angle and tire at the limit of grip. Your explanation is far better than I could ever put in words

Here is a simple trick to make tire sound a bit louder : Choose HDMI output, tick 5.1 LPCM under XMB, in game - choose 4.1 surround and living room/smal theatre. This way, you can hear 4.1 from stereo TV with no sound loss - in cockpit, engine sound is less dominant and tire noise gets more portion.

 

[MonzaDriver1]

Great explanation Hami I think when you countersteer to correct the car's angle of attack, that's when most of the time you are losing speed and time. I know about slip angle and tire at the limit of grip. Your explanation is far better than I could ever put in words

Here is a simple trick to make tire sound a bit louder : Choose HDMI output, tick 5.1 LPCM under XMB, in game - choose 4.1 surround and living room/smal theatre. This way, you can hear 4.1 from stereo TV with no sound loss - in cockpit, engine sound is less dominant and tire noise gets more portion.

Thank you Ridox,
in those video you put to our attention there is no even the slightest
slide or spinining, only pure traction on the ideal racing line.
Ok for the tip with audio.
MonzaDriver1

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Thank you Ridox,
in those video you put to our attention there is no even the slightest
slide or spinining, only pure traction on the ideal racing line.
Ok for the tip with audio.
MonzaDriver1

The audio trick also works very well in GT5 use 7.1 LPCM for even more effect - be sure to tick 192KHz on 5.1 and 7.1. Careful with TV volume - cockpit will have low engine sounds and loud tire noises, but chase view, engine/exhaust will be very LOUD This will also makes other cars sounds louder when in race, while you can still your car too.

 

[FormulaKimball]

...I would call it slip is fast, not slide is fast. Ever heard the term "a talking tire is a happy tire; a tire that is quiet and a tire that is screaming are unhappy." That sweet spot is the tire slipping just the right amount - a happy tire.

Awesome post. I've also heard it quantified in racing school that the ideal slip angle is usually only about 8 degrees - "Not a big angle". It sure feels great when you get it right. Looks badass from outside the car, too.

GTA 2013 seems to have more of a tire model, but it still doesn't work as well as several other games, it's still kind of either on or off. 10mph and the car is still in a lazy spin and won't recover. I was encouraged when Kaz had said in a recent interview that they gathered a lot of tire data as well as finally conceptualizing that the whole car is one big damper, also that being more realistic doesn't necessarily mean "more difficult to drive". Maybe that Academy 370z isn't an indicator of what GT6 will actually be like, but I didn't expect it to be just as frustrating to drive as it was last year. I hope they're still working on the physics...