The Toyota Theory...

[Kent]

Well, I've got this theory about Toyota that I'd like to share with the GTP. Feel free to give your opinions.

Right now there are many stereotypes about Toyota but the most dominant here on the GTP is that Toyota is a boring brand with nothing to offer the sport enthusiast.

I believe that if Toyota's worldwide holdings were labeled under the single name of Toyota the boring label would be less dominant.

The TC, XA & XB with various availible factory made performance upgrades. The IS- a 3-series competitor with RWD (enough said, not to mention the up-coming IS-F). The SC430 with RWD and plenty of power. The Yaris (jr. rally as shown in a thread on this board a few months back). The MR2, a Mid engine 2-seater. The Tacoma X, a sporty truck (whatever the actual name is).

I'm sure I could have left something off that short list but I believe this is still enough to show that Toyota's holdings do offer sporting models with various levels of performance.

In my opinion, if those were all labeled as Toyota the boring stigma would be more for Toyota haters than for critical enthusiast who make blanket statements.

Even when those models do not beat the competition they still represent an idea that is not boring.

What do you all think?
Is the "boring" stigma acceptable with so many sporty models availible or is the boring stigma a fan-boy stereotype without foundation?

I believe the stigma is unfounded and more often than not based on personal biases against the #1 seller of automobiles worldwide.

 

[V1P3R]

Well... I think Honda is boring too... even when their modified it's still a Honda. Neither of them are cars I think of for performance really unless it's a classic like say the Hachi Roku or something.

 

[Sage]

When people refer to Toyota as being a boring brand, they’re almost invariably referring to the Toyota Motor Corporation, not to Toyota Group. Yes, the Toyota Group makes some very sporty cars – the Toyota Motor Corporation doesn’t really though.

For example, let’s pretend that I say “Fords suck” (hypothetical situation, so don’t crucify me). Clearly, I’m not referring to everything that Ford owns, including Volvo and Mazda and what not – I would only be referring to cars with the Ford badge on them.

Same with Toyota.

 

[niky]

I don't know. I know I'm guilty of making the stereotype about some Toyotas, but honestly, not all of them.

I have enjoyed wheel-time in the Yaris's Japanese cousin, the Vios/Echo. I've also enjoyed seat time in some of Toyota's trucks... if you've never laid black strips on asphalt with a truck on off-road tires, you're a much wiser man than me... and I still bemoan the death of the MR2.

But, well, a lot of what Toyota sells is so vanilla (the SC being one of them...), that it's easy to fall into the locker-room mentality of swapping Toyota jokes with everyone.

But it's also irritating to see non-enthusiasts heaping praises on Toyota that they don't deserve. Credit where credit is due, I say... and criticism where it is due.

Well... I think Honda is boring too... even when their modified it's still a Honda. Neither of them are cars I think of for performance really unless it's a classic like say the Hachi Roku or something.

Actually, while I don't like the new Civic very much (still waiting for a drive in the Si... might change my mind...), I say, again, give credit where it's due... those engines are absolute firecrackers for such low displacement powerplants... The older Civic Sis (before they got fat...) were like having a superbike that seats five.

Of course, this brings up the question... Toyotas (in general) are boring compared to... what? What company doesn't make boring cars? (companies that don't sell anything under $30k don't count).

 

[Tornado]

Toyota still sells the MR2?
The IS is a shell of its former self, sadly. Still relatively sporty, though. You do raise a good point about the SC430, but I think most people have simply forgot about it with the mass recent influx of hardtop convertibles. I have heard good things about the Yaris, though.
And I really wouldn't call any of the Scions anything other than trendy basic transportation. None of them are sporty, regardless of what parts you put on them. The xB/xA twins especially simply aren't really able to be sporty, as they both are too tippy and van like.

 

[Kent]

When people refer to Toyota as being a boring brand, they’re almost invariably referring to the Toyota Motor Corporation, not to Toyota Group. Yes, the Toyota Group makes some very sporty cars – the Toyota Motor Corporation doesn’t really though.

For example, let’s pretend that I say “Fords suck” (hypothetical situation, so don’t crucify me). Clearly, I’m not referring to everything that Ford owns, including Volvo and Mazda and what not – I would only be referring to cars with the Ford badge on them.

Same with Toyota.

This seems to support the theory then (I think).
One problem with this though is that cars like the IS are actually an Altezza. So with that said, there's the hypocracy (not by you sage) but by others who will use the boring stigma while ignoring various Toyotas.
(btw, I see a major difference between scion, lexus, toyota and mazda, ford, volvo)

Furthermore, I'd have to disagree with toronado on part of the Scion statement...
I don't care what the bias is... When you offer a 2-door with double wish-bone suspension, 2.3L engine using great torque and "ok" power, then add the option for factory installed items like cold-air intake... Come on man, that is indeed more than just basic transport.
Also, I don't think the IS should be written off as easily as saying it is a shell of its former self.

 

[YSSMAN]

Like Toronado said, the Toyota today is a far-cry from the Toyota ten or fifteen years ago, and as things have changed, their cars have become progressively more docile both in movement and feeling overall. Granted, every single automaker out there has to build some kind of boring car to bring in the average shopper, but that doesn't mean that the boring car in question has to be really that boring at all...

...Look at the Mazda6. It certainly is meant to be a boring car to peddle out to the 'average' car buyer, but Mazda managed to find a balance between a sporty look both inside and out, a suspension that offers plenty of room for cruise and sport, not to mention a wide range of powerplant and transmission options that allow for the customer to decide what they want, and adjust accordingly.

I remember a time in which Toyota built some fun cars. Certainly, these cars were boring in the general definition, but Toyota would offer the cars in the stripped-down versions without ABS, equip them with manual transmissions, do without any fancy interior appointments, etc because it was what people wanted, and it was what Toyota felt people needed. All of that must have died with the growing popularity of the Corolla and the Camry, because at one point they were actually fun cars.

Critics of the critics love to point towards models like the IS, SC, Camry SE, Scion tC, etc to prove that Toyota can still build 'exciting' vehicles, and there is some truth to that. These cars do have nearly class-leading performance in some respects, but at the same time, Toyota has managed to suck the life out of the cars in every way possible with numb steering, excessive body-roll, too many computer overlords, seats and driving positions not capable to handling the handling that the cars can produce, etc...

So what it all comes down to is that Toyota can build 'exciting' cars, and they do build them, but by the time the safety-obsessed, quality-control gonzos go through them, all of the fun has been dried up... And we're left with a boring car.

Now I'm not saying that every company is perfect. My two companies, GM and Volkswagen are certainly guilty of doing what Toyota has done, but generally to a lesser extent. Cars like the Chevrolet Impala SS are fun because they are so stupid... A 303 BHP V8 in a FWD chassis that is capable of nearly 155 MPH, not to mention defeatable traction and stability controls adds up for a stupidly fun car, IMO. Volkswagen on the same token allows for a fair bit of fun in their vehicles simply because it is something they've always done... You feel 'connected' to the car when driving a VW, not 'riding' in the car like you do with a Toyota.

...I suppose it is all a preference thing, and largely depends on how you would chose to define 'boring.'

 

[Tornado]

I don't care what the bias is... When you offer a 2-door with double wish-bone suspension, 2.3L engine using great torque and "ok" power, then add the option for factory installed items like cold-air intake... Come on man, that is indeed more than just basic transport.

And when you go to that from a car like the ZZT231 Celica? Even with the factory items it still is not really competitive in its segment, regardless of how much said segment is decimated. The tC easily has the ability to be a winner in the segment if Toyota knew what to do with it.

Also, I don't think the IS should be written off as easily as saying it is a shell of its former self.

Oh, its a great car by itself. But when compared with the previous, Altezza based IS? I really can't see any contest between the two.

 

[Wolfe]

I'm with Toronado and YSSMAN. 👍

Toyota doesn't sell the MR2 anymore, they don't sell the Celica anymore, and they haven't sold a Supra for a long time (and I doubt they'll gather up the courage to build another).

Every single Lexus sold today has a non-defeatable traction and stability control system, and the only difference between the "sporty" models and the "luxury" models is that the sporty models understeer like a pig in a sharp manner, while the luxury models understeer like a pig in a marshmallowy manner. Granted, even with the understeer they post some impressive performance numbers, but between the lack of feel in the steering and the prevalence of autotragic transmissions (including being the only available transmission on the IS350), Lexus can't even begin to hold a candle to offerings from the likes of BMW or Infiniti.

All that's left is Toyota's "ordinary" offerings. Toronado was right when he said that Scions are nothing but "trendy basic transportation," and cars sold under the Toyota brand are simply "basic transportation" (unless you consider the Yaris trendy). It is true that basic economy cars needn't be boring (Mazda offers up a great example, and although they were better at it years ago, Honda does too), but Toyota seems to want to build them that way anyway.

Despite all of this, I have no prejudice against Toyota. Many of my favorite cars came from their factories, including (predictably) the MR2s, Celicas, and Supras, but also the previous Lexus IS, the 90's SC, and some of their Japan-only sports sedans/GTs. I even appreciate the dependability and simplistic charm of the early-'90s and older Corollas and Camrys, which were still light enough and computer-free to toss around and have some fun, too (within reason).

I don't hate Toyota. I'm just disappointed with them.

You do raise a good point about the SC430, but I think most people have simply forgot about it with the mass recent influx of hardtop convertibles.

Sounds like the SC430 is just as not-sporty as any other Lexus.

 

[YSSMAN]

And when you go to that from a car like the ZZT231 Celica? Even with the factory items it still is not really competitive in its segment, regardless of how much said segment is decimated. The tC easily has the ability to be a winner in the segment if Toyota knew what to do with it.

Say, cut out 400 lbs, add a halfway decent suspension with a bit more TRD expertise in its design instead of the regular TARD design they've gone for...

Granted, they've sold well on the basis of 'value' more than anything, instead of the performance that we were promised. But, I'd take the Cobalt 'Sport' over it any day, or hell even the basic VW Rabbit 3-door. I mean, lets face it, there are far-better options out there than the tC. I simply has not lived up to the Celica standards...

 

[Wolfe]

And when you go to that from a car like the ZZT231 Celica? Even with the factory items it still is not really competitive in its segment, regardless of how much said segment is decimated. The tC easily has the ability to be a winner in the segment if Toyota knew what to do with it.

What makes it particularly depressing is that the ZZT23 Celica was one of the absolute best-handling FWD cars ever built.

 

[Azuremen]

Considering its faster in most senses, and they dialed in more engine noise so you can hear it apparently in the cabin (gasp)

I still hate how the MR2 is dead, but I'll always just pick up used ones left and right. And those that complain about the Spyder never compared the Mk1 and Mk2 back to back. Mk2 was basically a muscle car in comparison to the true MR2.

The tC is a nice offering, at a decent price, with decent options and such. The Yaris I could see great things coming out of if people would stop fanboying the Fit because its Honda. I'm 90% certain (haven't actually checked all the parts specs out) that a 1.5L turbo can be dropped in that engine bay.

People always say Honda makes swaps easy, but Toyota does as well, and Toyota has some good engines. People just always freak out about Honda stuff more it seems, just because Honda makes like one good engine and pimps the crap out of it (K20 anyone)

From a business sense, the hot pocket rocket market is over crowded as is. There is the Si, the GTi, the WRX, the SS GM products, SRT-4, MazdaSpeed3, Sentra SE-R, RSX-S... why bother competing is such a cluttered class for just a handful of sales? They still make fun cars, they just don't want to bother competing in that class. Power is not needed to have fun either. I loved the crap out of my Tercel, even though it was gutless and had a 4speed manual.

More people seem to make judgment from numbers than anything else. Making a fun car is more than just having good power numbers.

Oh, and that lovely driving aid crap on the Lexus models? It can be disabled, without modifying the cars computer. And last I checked, completely disabled for the driving session...

And for that occasional run through the woods, when you’d rather not have the electronics interfere with your tire-sliding ambitions, here’s how to shut down the stability system. Start the car with the hand brake engaged. Press the brake pedal twice and hold. Engage the hand brake twice and hold. Repeat until the “skid lights” appear on the dash. The ABS does not shut off. When the engine is subsequently turned off and then switched back on, the stability control is reactivated. (Presumably, this trick works on all new Toyota and Lexus models, and it’s easier than it sounds.)

Found here http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests/10772/short-take-review-2006-lexus-is250.html

 

[Tornado]

More people seem to make judgment from numbers than anything else. Making a fun car is more than just having good power numbers.

Have you been listening to the arguments at all? By that logic the cars would be better as they have been getting faster and more powerful and ecetera.
I can sit down and tell you that the numbers isn't why Toyota has the stigma they have now, especially since they went from this:

Which was, by all accounts, an absurdly good handling FWD car, to this:

Which is by most accounts, a spongy understeering boat with more roll in turns than a Caddy from the 70s.
And that is only one of many examples.
And your point on how it is possible to turn off the stability control? Yeah, I would call that jumping through hoops. Especially when the competitors usually have a switch or button to turn said nannies off.

 

[Kent]

Remember, I'm not asking you guys if you like or dislike toyota, I already know the answer for most of you.

However, I am indeed interested to see what you all think of the theory I've presented.

Would a single name brand presentation of Toyota cars change the brands reputation from "boring" to not-so-boring?

Remember that this is a discussion of the theory presented, not an oppurtunity to argue whether or not Toyota has sporty offerings (which isn't really an argument since there isn't going to be anyone willing to argue for the other side).
(and yes, there is a difference between arguing the sportiness of toyota and discussing the affects of consolidating the brand names)

 

[Tornado]

Would a single name brand presentation of Toyota cars change the brands reputation from "boring" to not-so-boring?

It wouldn't be enough. Especially as brands like Mazda keep pushing the sportiness, be it real or imagined, as a major selling point.

 

[Wolfe]

Oh, and that lovely driving aid crap on the Lexus models? It can be disabled, without modifying the cars computer. And last I checked, completely disabled for the driving session...

Found here http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests/10772/short-take-review-2006-lexus-is250.html

That is good to know, but what do you plan to do about the other problems without tampering with anything (understeer, lack of feel, autotragic transmission)?

So to get it straight...
Toronado, Wolfe, and YSSMAN all feel Toyota is indeed the boring brand.

That aside, do any of you care to comment on the "theory"?

Would a single name brand presentation of Toyota cars change the brands reputation from "boring" to not-so-boring?

Sorry, I didn't realize that was what you were after.

I don't think so, at least not for any knowledgable enthusiast who already associates all of Toyota's brand names with Toyota. Even then, non-enthusiasts probably associate Toyota with environmental friendliness and couldn't care less about sportiness or "soul," so it wouldn't change their opinions either.

Btw, the Corolla with an automatic transmission weighs only 1188kg/2615lbs. (I'd say that's a pretty light weight car compared to others in the segment considering the Cobalt and Civic are both pushing about 200lbs. more)

You're right, Toyota does still know how to build a light car (moreso than most other manufacturers). The ZZT23 Celica also proved this. They just need to do something with that lightweight engineering.

 

[Azuremen]

And your point on how it is possible to turn off the stability control? Yeah, I would call that jumping through hoops. Especially when the competitors usually have a switch or button to turn said nannies off.

That switch is only superficial. On virtually EVERY make that has that option, the aids are still there and spring back to life as soon as they dictate you have had "too much" fun. Mercedes is probably the worst about it, but last I checked everyone of those disables really doesn't disable the aids.

Yes, I wish they had kept the Celica GT-S around, though they needed to fix the gearing on it, as it seemed too tall for the power band in the lower gears. The tC has potential, and was a bit cheaper when it came out.

But honestly, most manufacturers have done this cut the bare bones cars. Honda has.. the Civic Si and the S2000 (which is dying). Nissan has... Sentra SE-R and 350Z... Subaru has the WRX... Ford has... erm, the Mustang and outdated Focus (does it even have the SVT option anymore)?

But back to Kent's theory... I think it is a bit unbiased. Yes, Toyota lost some fun models, so has everyone else though. Crash standards keep rising, people keep complaining about the environment, etc. Yes, Toyota doesn't have the best performance models there these days, but you can still make them good if you take a little time. Toyota is brilliant about interchangeable parts, thus why I could take everything off a Starlet GT and give a Tercel 150 HP and a nice suspension...

That is good to know, but what do you plan to do about the other problems without tampering with anything (understeer, lack of feel, autotragic transmission)?

Well, Toyota apparently designed the cars to have the Aids, so they become a bit more interesting to drive. That, and a proper alignment will usually fix factory dialed in understeer, and a rear sway bar WILL fix it. Lack of feel is hard one to beat, I will admit. Tire pressure tweaking usually helps. Autotragics these days, at least on sporty cars, are much better than they use to be. I honestly wouldn't mind having one of the more expensive auto trannies with manual override.

 

[///M-Spec]

I have to disagree with a two opinions. First the IS sedans are perfectly fine sports sedans --not a shadow of its former self by any means. I have driven both a first generation IS300 and more recently a 2006 IS250 AWD and was quite impressed by it. It had very good turn-in feel, good body control and a rock solid chassis. The interior was also (like all Lexi) first rate and made my 330 look a little low rent in places.

It's not quite as spry or flickable as the 1st gen car, but neither is an E90 335i compared to an E46 330.

Unfortunately, the other Lexus people have mentioned, the SC430 is about as far away from a driver's car as you can imagine without the words "Town Car" on the trunk lid. I know because my mother has one and I've driven it plenty. Heavy, under-dampened, isolated, with steering so vague it rivals political campaign promises.

On the other hand, its also quiet, supremely well built and has a superb interior I would happily sit for hours in. The SC430 is one of the best boulevard cruisers I've even driven.

I don't quite understand why Toyota is happy to let its brand --the core "Toyota" brand go the way of Buick and Oldsmobile. They are obviously capable of so much more.

How about they take the IS sedan platform, cut a few inches from the wheelbase and make a 2+2 coupe priced to compete with the RX-8 and 350Z?


M

 

[1X83Z]

Toyota still sells the MR2?

Of course not, and you'll note he included the SC430 in his defense of Toyota's exciting product line.

Toyota builds appliances, plain and simple. If you disagree, here's a statistic that should change your mind: The quickest vehicle in Toyota's product line right now does 0-60 in a sprightly 6.1 seconds. That vehicle?

Toyota's quickest vehicle is a full-size pickup. There's a brand building exciting vehicles.

 

[Kent]

Of course not, and you'll note he included the SC430 in his defense of Toyota's exciting product line.

Toyota builds appliances, plain and simple. If you disagree, here's a statistic that should change your mind: The quickest vehicle in Toyota's product line right now does 0-60 in a sprightly 6.1 seconds. That vehicle?

Toyota's quickest vehicle is a full-size pickup. There's a brand building exciting vehicles.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with the results of consolidating the brands holdings into one name brand.

Beyond that I'd like to mention that I wasn't defending Toyota's anything. Rather, I was providing a list of cars that do in fact have some sporting philosophy behind them (even if the execution isn't up to par the idea remains the same).

(Similar to attempted murder and murder, just because you miss the mark doesn't mean your intentions were any different... or to say it a more simple way... The intentions of an action do not change based on the result of the action)

All that said, please... Back on the topic.

Btw, had I known the truck did 6.1 I would have included it in the list.

 

[YSSMAN]

Would a single name brand presentation of Toyota cars change the brands reputation from "boring" to not-so-boring?

Sorry that a few of us didn't grasp the big idea right away, but to get to that question...

Generally speaking, I already roll Toyota into one brand altogether. Certainly, each of the brands operate separately from each other (for the most part), however, with the current use (or misuse?) of product sharing between Scion, Toyota, and Lexus, the lines between each company really aren't drawn clearly any longer. This being said, I do see companies like GM and VAG with their respective brands as separate identities (despite periodical overlaps) because they build different vehicles that cater to different types of people. I generally see different kinds of people buying Chevrolets by comparison to Pontiacs and Buicks, and on the VW level, most VW buyers are certainly a different breed by comparison to their Audi counterparts.

So lets say all of the models were rolled into one, what would happen? Not much really. Toyota of Japan, last I recall, still operates completely under one moniker, and I'm not certain what the exact benefit would be there. If we were to have Scion tCs and Lexus ES350s next to eachother on the same lot, both with Toyota badges on the hood, I doubt it would make much of a difference to anyone. I already see the Scion as a quasi-Toyota, and the Lexus is just a fancy option over the not-much-worse Toyota Avalon.

I dunno. I mean, maybe its just because of the way I already view the company, but I just don't see it changing much. They have a few non-boring products, but by comparison to the competition, it may as well be a Lay-Z-Boy...

 

[///M-Spec]

Would a single name brand presentation of Toyota cars change the brands reputation from "boring" to not-so-boring?

Not for me. Changing the brand on the hood does absolutely nothing to enhance the car it's attached to. Non-boring needs to be built into all its products at some level.

If you park a Camry next to a Supra in the showroom, it doesn't suddenly become any less boring. In fact, quite the opposite.

Look at Mazda. That company can put 'Zoom Zoom' into a minivan while crawling out of a product black hole so deep it made Nissan's 1994 lineup look like BMW's 1998 lineup. Every car they make now is consistent at some level with the brand ethos.

Toyota is profitable enough to throw some money into sport packages that consist of more than just sideskirts and trim bits. They can do it. For some reason, they just don't want to.


M

 

[Azuremen]

No, I don't think rolling it all under a single nameplate would help the image. Most people that are interested in true performance instead of looks are aware that Toyota/Lexus/Scion are the same company. I think it might hurt things a bit actually, but thats just me. What would have helped at least would have been if Toyota had brought all the goofy cars to the US that it was making... 6th gen celica GT-4, AE101 and AE111 Corolla's, Starlet GT, Turbo Vitz, and so on.

Popular culture has alot to do with it as well. The Corolla (the more recent models) is considered an old persons car by alot of high schoolers, while the Civic is the cool thing to have. Having driven the crap out of my Corolla, its a fairly robust car that I find fairly fun to drive. But the Civic has the image and the "culture" I guess. Thats not gonna change unless some F&F style movie comes out featuring Corolla's being pimped out (which I hope never does, I like how I can get them for a sane price).

///M, I think the reason they don't is 95% of the buying public doesn't really care if the car is fast, just as long as it looks like it is. Especially the typical teenage car "tuner" with his spoiler, bodykit, and glass pack, with absolutely no work to aid actual performance. Which is sad, as we suffer...

 

[///M-Spec]

///M, I think the reason they don't is 95% of the buying public doesn't really care if the car is fast, just as long as it looks like it is. Especially the typical teenage car "tuner" with his spoiler, bodykit, and glass pack, with absolutely no work to aid actual performance. Which is sad, as we suffer...

Yet this doesn't stop companies like Mazda, Nissan, BMW, VW/Audi, some GM brands, Subaru, Honda (well, really Acura) etc. from building many driver-centric cars and infusing even their most pedestrian products with a fair amount of 'fun to drive'.

If Toyota wants to improve it's image to enthusiasts, it needs to start at the bones, in every product it offers. It cannot do this with halo cars. A C6 doesn't make an Impala sporty just like an IS-F won't make a Camry sporty. A Mazda6 is sporty EVEN when it's not parked next to an RX-8 or MX-5. A Legacy GT is sporty even when an STI isn't around. This is not just because they LOOK sporty; its because they are.

IMO, brand image starts at the bread and butter cars. BMW, which has a very strong brand image does so because even the most basic 328i is a desirable, sporty car with many virtues car people love.


M

 

[1X83Z]

I fail to see how this has anything to do with the results of consolidating the brands holdings into one name brand.

You said you had a theory about Toyota, which I took to be:

"I believe the stigma is unfounded and more often than not based on personal biases against the #1 seller of automobiles worldwide."

Consolidating the brand's products (holdings is the wrong word, unless you really mean holdings) under one brand name would make no sense for so many reasons more than their respective brands' reputations...

 

[Kent]

Consolidating the brand's products (holdings is the wrong word, unless you really mean holdings) under one brand name would make no sense for so many reasons more than their respective brands' reputations...

What I've quoted would have been enough in your first post.
Feel free to elaborate if you wish.

None the less, the point of this is to address the question...
Would consolidating Toyota products under a single "Toyota" brand name have any result on the perception the public holds and what do you believe the result would be.

Also, I still feel the truck picture post was a bit out of place and off topic.
(please keep in mind that this isn't a debate about whether or not Toyota is sporty)

Of course, I'm not above mistakes (atleast I admit to it) and using the terms "holdings" was a mistake. I should have been more specific in saying toyota products (as you pointed out).

 

[JCE]

I'm with Toronado and YSSMAN. 👍

Toyota doesn't sell the MR2 anymore, they don't sell the Celica anymore, and they haven't sold a Supra for a long time (and I doubt they'll gather up the courage to build another).

Every single Lexus sold today has a non-defeatable traction and stability control system, and the only difference between the "sporty" models and the "luxury" models is that the sporty models understeer like a pig in a sharp manner, while the luxury models understeer like a pig in a marshmallowy manner. Granted, even with the understeer they post some impressive performance numbers, but between the lack of feel in the steering and the prevalence of autotragic transmissions (including being the only available transmission on the IS350), Lexus can't even begin to hold a candle to offerings from the likes of BMW or Infiniti.

All that's left is Toyota's "ordinary" offerings. Toronado was right when he said that Scions are nothing but "trendy basic transportation," and cars sold under the Toyota brand are simply "basic transportation" (unless you consider the Yaris trendy). It is true that basic economy cars needn't be boring (Mazda offers up a great example, and although they were better at it years ago, Honda does too), but Toyota seems to want to build them that way anyway.

Despite all of this, I have no prejudice against Toyota. Many of my favorite cars came from their factories, including (predictably) the MR2s, Celicas, and Supras, but also the previous Lexus IS, the 90's SC, and some of their Japan-only sports sedans/GTs. I even appreciate the dependability and simplistic charm of the early-'90s and older Corollas and Camrys, which were still light enough and computer-free to toss around and have some fun, too (within reason).

I don't hate Toyota. I'm just disappointed with them.


Sounds like the SC430 is just as not-sporty as any other Lexus.

+rep--only if it would allow me to. You said basically everything I wanted to say. I've made my main points in your post in bold.

If the IS350 had a complete traction control/stability system OFF switch and a 6spd transmission it would be a great competitor to the 3-series. I like the look of the IS, I really do. And it is a great place to be, it just prosonifies my dislike for Toyota in general. It's technology driven and nannyfied beyond belief. The tC isn't basic transportation when you consider that Toyota does offer official TRD upgrades and some forced induction. That, actually, is the only Toyota sports car left. No, I'm being serious. It has no nanny options, no fancy bull**** technology, a great suspension, a powerful enough engine for fun, and handles better than people give it credit for. Oh, and it comes with a manual transmission option. Name me one other Toyota car that offers all that I just mentioned? Toyota used to be all about sportiness. The 80's and 90's Celicas, the Supras, the MR2s, and the SC300s/SC400s were all great fun and fantastic cars to own with very good reliablity.

YSS and the rest are right about Mazda, they take seemingly boring cars and turn them into sporty ones. The Mazda6 should of been a boring saloon car like it's two predacessors were--the Millenia and 626. But it is alive with sport creditials. Mazda has the RX-8, while I don't like it at all--it still is a sports car. And let's not forget about Nissan here, they are and always will be the most sporty Japanese manufacturer. They along with Honda prove that sports cars first, saloon cars second, and sport saloon cars third is a winning forumla...well in Nissans case sport saloon cars second.

I may not like Honda as a whole but I do give them HUGE credit for keeping sports cars alive in Japan with the Civic Type-R, S2000 (about to die), and even the NSX (dead). They will keep the ball rolling by introducing another roadster to replace the S2000 and they are in the process of replacing the NSX so Honda will be alive and well.

Toyota's image has taken a couple of huge hits recently. First with the murdering of the sports cars that people love that people can't forget to being #1 in the USA for recalls--which takes a huge chunk from their reliability claims. I think Toyota's concentrating on becoming a Japanese version of Mercedes Benz--minus the sports cars. While that would seem like a compliment it isn't. I love MB, but they are too interested in technology and they too have an intrusive traction control/stability system that can't be fully turned off from factory (unless you enter some kind of special code or something if I remember correctly). AND I think Toyota is more concerned with making money now then actually making things exciting and niche.

Toyota needs a compact sports car, a mid-sized sports coupe, and a large sport coupe to get back to their roots. I think with the sports cars/coupes comes more customers and thus more money. I think Toyota is going about their business all wrong.

Of course not, and you'll note he included the SC430 in his defense of Toyota's exciting product line.

Toyota builds appliances, plain and simple. If you disagree, here's a statistic that should change your mind: The quickest vehicle in Toyota's product line right now does 0-60 in a sprightly 6.1 seconds. That vehicle?

Toyota's quickest vehicle is a full-size pickup. There's a brand building exciting vehicles.

And that is an American designed and engineered pickup too, just like the Nissan Titan.

*edit*

I completely missed the point, yes Toyota needs to consolidate all of it's sister companies into one name--Toyota. Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are worthless and only were created for America because in the early 90's no closed minded American would of paid alot of money for a "Toyota" or "Nissan" or "Honda". The fact is, it really is a combination of America, Americans, and those said companies that these multi-brands exsist. While American automakers have had sister companies for almost 70-80 years or so, it started out as mergers or buy outs--*see Oldsmobile. But, once the big three figured out they could "trick" the unknolwedgable Americans into thinking that some how a Buick is more luxury than a Chevrolet that's when it all started. I'd like to provide more info but I can't seem to find anything from google to post.

 

[1X83Z]

What I've quoted would have been enough in your first post.
Feel free to elaborate if you wish.

None the less, the point of this is to address the question...
Would consolidating Toyota products under a single "Toyota" brand name have any result on the perception the public holds and what do you believe the result would be.

The result would be that Lexus vehicles formerly perceived as 'premium' would no longer enjoy such a perception, Scion vehicles formerly perceived as 'youthful' would no longer enjoy such a perception, there would be no effect on Toyota sales, and therefore in all, sales would decrease.

 

[Kent]

I'd have to say the Lexus side of things would be bad. You're right about that M5power.
However, I disagree with the Scion side.
Rather, I believe people would probably buy more of those products because they would be more willing to buy a "toyota" than a "scion" (which is pretty much a brand new name).

 

[JCE]

The result would be that Lexus vehicles formerly perceived as 'premium' would no longer enjoy such a perception, Scion vehicles formerly perceived as 'youthful' would no longer enjoy such a perception, there would be no effect on Toyota sales, and therefore in all, sales would decrease.

Exactly the point I was making. 👍