The Toyota Theory...

[Azuremen]

JCE, I would like to point out in an earlier post I did that the aids on the Lexus models can be fully disabled, though it does require a bit of trickery with the brakes.

The Auris does have a 200 HP model (I believe) in Europe, and it should be interesting to see what they do with it in the US. I'm quite looking forward to it.

They maybe #1 in recalls, but they have been pretty trite issues, I believe anyhow. That, and you are going to have more recalls the more cars you sell, its just basic number crunching.

 

[JCE]

JCE, I would like to point out in an earlier post I did that the aids on the Lexus models can be fully disabled, though it does require a bit of trickery with the brakes.

I just read that a few minutes ago...too lazy to edit my post. But lazy enough to make a new post. 👍

They maybe #1 in recalls, but they have been pretty trite issues, I believe anyhow. That, and you are going to have more recalls the more cars you sell, its just basic number crunching.

Oh I agree completely, most recalls are for trivial things. But the preception is oftentimes worse than reality. But still, Toyota had very few recalls when they were in the "hayday" of the Celica, Supra, and MkI/MkII MR2. 👍

 

[Azuremen]

I just read that a few minutes ago...too lazy to edit my post. But lazy enough to make a new post. 👍

Oh I agree completely, most recalls are for trivial things. But the preception is oftentimes worse than reality. But still, Toyota had very few recalls when they were in the "hayday" of the Celica, Supra, and MkI/MkII MR2. 👍

Way to be lazy

That aside, while they didn't have as many recalls back in the day, their cars still had their issues. Small rattles were always an issue, and the Mk1 MR2 had a nice, HUGE list of revisions between the 86 and 87 model years, from upgrade brakes, to rear wheel wells less likely to rust, to a transmission that was better built, etc. I'm certain other examples are their, but the MR2 is a car I spend far too much time working on, with the 85 and 86 being considered somewhat inferior to the 87 to 89 models.

I personally think the minor recalls are a good thing, as it means Toyota is willing to fix those little things that went bad now, rather than letting a door handle rattle forever (points at some domestic and german brands), and so on. Somethings you simply cannot realize till the product hits the real world, but it seems Toyota is trying to rectify even those mistakes now. Thats how I view it anyhow.

 

[Aquendwato]

From reading through this thread I found the fats majority of people think that Toyota should cater to the enthusiast market the way Mazda has. The reality is most car buyers don't want sporty, they want things like comfort, fuel economy, and reliability. Most new drivers today don't know how to drive stick. Likewise Toyota's "electronannies" no doubt sell more cars to middle-aged parents worried about driving in the snow than they lose to enthusiasts wanting a tougher car to drive. Seeing as how Toyota is now the largest auto maker in the world, I don't thing they should change a thing with their current lineup. Sure I'd love to see the Supra, MR2, and Celica come back, but they were discontinued for a reason; they weren't selling enough.

To answer the question, rolling all their cars into one brand would be the worst thing Toyota could do. When a rich businessman is shopping for a new car he wants it to have a prestigious logo. With a Lexus logo on the car it draws parallels to the SC and LS, highly desirable and quite expensive. The Toyota logo on the other hand goes with the Corolla and Camry, somewhat less desirable. Selling cars in the high end market is as much about image as it is about the actual product.

 

[Kent]

+rep (aquendwato). 👍
I like how you said it really simply.

Selling cars in the high end market is as much about image as it is about the actual product.

That's the case for more cars in the market than I want to admit but it's true. Image sells (it's not just with cars, I mean, look at MTV ).

As much as I would like to see Toyota get credit for all the various vehicles they make, it surely would be bad for buisness.

 

[JCE]

Cool, because he said it simply he gets rep, but when I say the same thing (or anyone else who did in this thread like YSS?) with more of an explination and or opinion along with alot of other information they and I don't even get a reply? You wanted everyone to comment, but you'll only comment to ask for the correct comments or just to the one or two post(s) you like? Did I miss something?

 

[Kent]

Cool, because he said it simply he gets rep, but when I say the same thing (or anyone else who did in this thread like YSS?) with more of an explination and or opinion along with alot of other information they and I don't even get a reply? You wanted everyone to comment, but you'll only comment to ask for the correct comments or just to the one or two post(s) you like? Did I miss something?

Wow...
There was a legit reason for my rep giving... (I would explain but justifiying why I gave rep seems rediculus)
None the less, just cause you're the only person I've ever (in all my time on the gtp) seen complain about not getting rep (or how rep was given)...
+rep to you. It takes some serious gaul to do what you've just done and I'll give you credit for that if nothing else.

Any way, all hurt feelings aside, back to the subject. 👍

 

[JCE]

lol It's not that my feelings were hurt I was actually just curious. YSS way more than me deserves the rep, his reply was much more thought out and much better to read. Mine was more of a half rant half info post. Hah. I'd give YSS rep, but I've given too much to him.

But anyway back on the subject, which brings me to ask you this question.

What would the pitfalls be if Toyota does infact dump it's other brand names? And conversely, would it be smarter for Toyota to create more brand names? Like maybe a sports car only brand name?

 

[Aquendwato]

I think if Toyota is going to make a sports car it should fall under the Lexus or Toyota marque, depending on the price. Simply because the goal of a sports car is not to turn a huge profit itself, but to boost it's brands reputation. Much like the STi does with Subaru, the Evo does for Mitsubishi, and the Corvette does for Chevrolet.

On the flipside, a sports car doesn't really fit into the brand image of either Lexus (luxury and easy riding) or Toyota (long lasting and efficient). The exception would be a Aston Martin style sports car. Something like the SC only more responsive and sporting a much larger powerplant. I suppose the MR2 fits into the Toyota image given it's small size, but it's being discontinued anyway for lack of sales (I think they just never pushed it hard enough). This leaves what I feel is the best option adding giving Scion a sports car as the flagship model it so sorely misses. Seriously, Scion has almost no brand recognition with America's youth. My 22 year old sister is shopping for her first car and had no idea they even existed before I told her.

 

[YSSMAN]

The funny thing about Scion is that it largely depends on where you are first of all for recognition, and then secondly one must overcome the general age gap that has attached itself to the brand. I seem to recall a study that was done a year or so after the nationwide launch of the brand, and I believe the figures were showing that most of the owners of the xA and xB twins were in excess of 50 years old, well above the 18-34 age group that Toyota was shooting for. Funny enough, go to an auto show, and you've got all the young kids hanging around at the Scion booth, but it is the old folks who are looking at the cars most attentively...

To get back to the subject just a bit, it isn't as though this isn't happening already. My thoughts go back to Toyota finally introducing the Lexus brand in Japan after what, nearly 20 years since its creation in the US? I'm not certain of how things have gone, but certainly our Lexus ES, GS, LS, and SC models sold well enough with the Toyota badge on the hood.

The model simply wouldn't work in America. Our demands of difference through our ideals of individualism is what keeps the rich folks from buying the average Camry and Avalon to look cool when they can instead buy the ES and GS that they've always wanted. The whole image thing is what takes the idea down, particularly when you've got nearly 20 years on the Lexus brand, and a solid start with the what, three or so years with Scion?

That being said, I personally am in the group that would want a further individualization of the given brands, as of right now, there still feels like there is an overlaying sense of overlap among some models. Generally speaking, not only do the models go undefined amongst themselves, but generally speaking, the brands seem to do much the same as well.

...Someone brought up the subject of sports cars, and I think they pretty much nailed it. If Toyota is going to get back to doing the sporty thing, they are going to have to consider how they are going to do it much harder than they would have ten or fifteen years ago. The Lexus sports car certainly will have to carry a pedigree, and quite frankly the only comparable model currently is the R8, by which there is a fair amount of sport and luxury to go around...

...Similarly, for the Toyota brand itself, the notion of a truly sporty model continues to fade away as they pile-on the newer versions of the Camry, Yaris, etc. That isn't to say that a healthy dose of TRD wouldn't fix things (that is, if the TARD division doesn't override the performance parts), but the sportiness will probably have to be left to Scion, as it is maybe the best representation of the former Toyota that we have seen...

 

[1X83Z]

However, I disagree with the Scion side.
Rather, I believe people would probably buy more of those products because they would be more willing to buy a "toyota" than a "scion" (which is pretty much a brand new name).

What's the point of creating a new brand name if you're going to absorb it back into the original within just a few years?

Cool, because he said it simply he gets rep, but when I say the same thing (or anyone else who did in this thread like YSS?) with more of an explination and or opinion along with alot of other information they and I don't even get a reply?

+rep

 

[niky]

I think one question you should be asking, Kent... is:

What image is Toyota itself trying to project?

Part of Toyota's success is in attracting that big, fat, middle part of the bell curve. That huge portion of the population right between totally brain-dead in an automotive sense and petrol-blooded on the other. People who don't want the fastest car or the most boring car, but something square in-between. They're not the most technical, nor the most ignorant of buyers (those people go out and buy Chevrolet Aveos... ), but they know enough to know what they want.

As part of targetting the "average joe", Toyota has tailored its products to appeal to that statistic. The Corolla has gotten dumpier and dumpier over the years... from a small and nippy people mover to a rounded space-shuttle with lots of elbow room. While this is true for most vehicle classes, Toyota seems most content to target "bland". While they do make the odd "sporty" versions of the Corolla and Yaris (yes, there is a turbo version in Asia/Japan), as well as special cars like the Tacoma X-Runner, most of their portfolio consists of vehicles aimed at convincing people they're a "safe buy".

And someone please teach them how to make a steering rack again. Despite the dead-feeling electric steering, there's more fun in half-a-minute of Fit thrashing than half-a-day of driving the just-as-powerful Vios (Asian Yaris) sedan.

"Sporty" and "Fast" aren't exactly "safe buys". Log on to any Mazda forum (I'm on quite a few of them...) and you'll see tons of complaints, ranging from shorn engine mounts to busted transmissions. So, while Mazda sells on the precedent of "Sporty", it doesn't normally project the image of "Safe".

In the end, Toyota's success at projecting this image has taken its toll. And this philosophy shows up in every new car they make. Sure, a new Camry may have a ton of horsepower, and scoot to sixty miles an hour in less time than my "sporty" Mazda can ever dream of, but it'll never feel as good a steer as a Mazda6.

But there's the rub. While your typical automotive enthusiast or journalist will love the Mazda6's well-connected helm and responsive handling, the stiff ride, heavy steering wheel and tiring drive turn away that 80% statistic that's square in Toyota's soft, comfortable and safe bracket.

-----

Modern Toyotas aren't bad cars. They're just not designed for the likes of us.

 

[Hugo Boss]

However, I am indeed interested to see what you all think of the theory I've presented.

Would a single name brand presentation of Toyota cars change the brands reputation from "boring" to not-so-boring?

It wouldn't make a difference I think. Although we don't have Scion here in Europe, Toyota would still be considered boring anyway. The only people who would call a car/brand boring, are the car enthousiasts. And that explains everything here.

The point is, Toyota/Lexus doesn't aim at selling cars to car enthousiasts. Fact is that people that see a car purely as a thing to travel with from A to B, easily outnumber the car enthousiasts. Toyota is just a big machine, focused on making money. Toyota's only selling points are aimed at the car-uninterested people: reliability, good service, environment friendly (Prius and the growing number of hybrid versions) and since a few years they focus on the business market, because leasing is big in Europe. If you look at what they offer here in Europe, it just makes you cry being a car lover. The Auris and Avensis (size inbetween Auris and Camry) are designed for the business market. Besides the appalling looks, they offer a lot of business packs and the most powerful engines are the diesels. The most powerful petrol Auris is a mighty 1.6 with 124 hp. They used to have a 200+ hp Corolla T-Sport, but since it was even more dull than a standard Corolla, no salesman ever tried to sell one.

So to come to a conclusion: I think your topic is irrelevant, Kent (JK )

As long as most people think that Toyota is somewhat environment friendly and that their cars are reliable, their cars will be sold. If today/tomorrow Toyota would be gone, I wouldn't miss them. But making profit is what counts on the first place being a manufacturer and that's what Toyota does best at the moment. Even while being boring...

Edit: If Niky would have been a bit faster with posting, I wouldn't have felt the need to post 👍

 

[niky]

Bwahaha... I'll take that over +rep, any day. S'Okay, we were on the same wavelength.

By the way, they are supposedly releasing a new T-Sport, but since we don't get that here, I can't say either way how good it'll be.

At least this "sports edition" will get IRS... supposedly. I'm a little hazy on it, it's been a while since I've heard anything on the Auris.

 

[Condraz23]

Toyota was a relatively interesting brand during the late 1980's. They had the...

Toyota MR2
Toyota Supra
Toyota Celica

Toyota has eliminated the above models from their lineup. Their range consists of boring sedans and hatchbacks that would only appeal to women and middle-aged couples. Nowadays, they have resorted to putting "Sportivo" badges on bland hatchbacks. Toyota isn't a very interesting brand anymore, but as long as they continue to earn a profit, I doubt the situation would change.

 

[Slicks]

I'll first state that I'm no Toyota fan. A few posts back, Hugo Boss said that "If today/tomorrow Toyota would be gone, I wouldn't miss them".
Well, I'll one-up that. I'd be glad they're gone.

I can't pinpoint exactly why I don't like Toyota, but I guess that it's the sum of a bunch of beefs I have with the company. It's their misleading advertising (or, at least moreso than others have been), their hypocritical actions, and their reputation, among other things.
But forget the first two. It's their reputation that's relevant, here. It's what makes Toyota, Toyota.

Would a single name brand presentation of Toyota cars change the brands reputation from "boring" to not-so-boring?

In short, no.
Toyota's reputation is for making "Average" cars. Safe, reliable, unenthusiastic, uninteresting. The epitomy of boring, as far as cars go. It's been their reputation for years. Many of us know of or remember a time when Toyota made enthusiasts' cars alongside their mundane ones. It's what some of us here used to love about Toyota. But that's been gone for so long now, that the majority don't think of that when the think of Toyota. They think of the mundane sedans pumped out by the millions. And that's Toyota's reputation.
I think that for a car company to have a sporty or enthusiast-oriented reputation, two things must happen:
-They must produce enthusiast-oriented cars, and
-There must be enthusiasts buying them.
But since neither is happening, and no changes are immenent, I would have to say that their reputation of "Boring" is here to stay. I would even go so far as to say that they're beyond salvage.

 

[a6m5]

"Boring", "uninteresting", those are Toyota's reputation amongst the auto enthusiasts and the some of the gtplanet members, but their actual reputation in the U.S. is along lines of "efficient", "reliable", "value"(as in resale, because they aren't cheap, a lot of the times), so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, if I were in their shoes.

To answer Kent's main question, no, I don't think it will change the opinions of any Toyota haters. For the unbiased like me, I'd notice the sporties like tC, IS, GS, but still not enough to consider Toyota, "sporty".

Many excellent posts in this thread, I was giving away the rep points for little bit, too. And from them, I noticed something interesting. Maybe it's just an coincidence, I don't know. To me, it seems like any sports Toyota has, they have moved outside the "Toyota" label. Scion got the tC, Lexus got the rest, including that exotic flagship, LF-A(gorgeous car!).

Toyota seems to be focusing on SUVs, passenger cars/wagons and a van. Maybe it's nothing, maybe they have a Celica or Supra or MR coming up in the lineup, I don't know. I just think it's odd.

 

[YSSMAN]

"Boring", "uninteresting", those are Toyota's reputation amongst the auto enthusiasts and the some of the gtplanet members, but their actual reputation in the U.S. is along lines of "efficient", "reliable", "value"(as in resale, because they aren't cheap, a lot of the times), so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, if I were in their shoes.

I'd assume that about everyone outside the Detroit-friendly Mid-West would view Toyota as "efficient, reliable, and value-packed." This is why I hate people who don't live in Michigan (kidding... ?).

Toyota seems to be focusing on SUVs, passenger cars/wagons and a van. Maybe it's nothing, maybe they have a Celica or Supra or MR coming up in the lineup, I don't know. I just think it's odd.

A wagon? Where?

...I thought GM and VW were the only ones crazy enough to pull that idea off!

 

[a6m5]

I'd assume that about everyone outside the Detroit-friendly Mid-West would view Toyota as "efficient, reliable, and value-packed." This is why I hate people who don't live in Michigan (kidding... ?).

Really.....

What is the general take on Toyota in Michigan?, if you can give me the unbiased version, I know it's really hard for you. I take it they also sell poorly there, huh? I can believe it, I can respect it. It's homecourt advantage.

A wagon? Where?

Matrix and the Camry Station Wag... what! they discontinued it!?

I was actually thinking Matrix, and looks like that's the only Toyota wagon in their lineup. Oops.

 

[YSSMAN]

Really.....

What is the general take on Toyota in Michigan?, if you can give me the unbiased version, I know it's really hard for you. I take it they also sell poorly there, huh? I can believe it, I can respect it. It's homecourt advantage.

It largely depends on what part of the state you're in to get a feeling for how Toyota is. Generally speaking on the widest of wide terms, most people wouldn't be caught dead in a Toyota, much less a Toyota dealership. That being said, that last 10% of cars that aren't domestic-branded that are sold in Michigan is largely occupied by Toyota, and surprisingly, by Volkswagen.

My side of the state (West Michigan) is largely more receptive to outside makes, I assume because fewer of us work directly for the Big Three, although the majority of jobs in and around the area usually have something to do with them. So, Toyotas sell moderately well (for Michigan), but this isn't like your average Toyota dealer in California...

I think the situation is best described by the way our 'tard Governor Granholm handles Toyota. We are begging them to come to the state to open up factories to give us the jobs we desperately need, all while we enforce a pretty stiff buy-Detroit policy across the state. Oh, and its the same story with Nissan and Honda. Although when Goshn talked about buying some of our old factories, it got a lot of people in Michigan excited.

...But as noted before, I've always found it very strange how receptive people have been in Michigan towards Volkswagen. I don't know why...