The visual detail that drives me mad...

[th3o]

They have some of the best models in Forza Vista mode, but it does not translate to what you see when driving. I followed cars from the bumper camera and to me they often look relatively bland compared to when i follow cars in the other games i mentioned. Even the pics of the A7 you posted, is the car supposed to be matte laque?
I never said that Forzas lighting is bad, i said its not as good as the competition because the contrast is lacking. The overall image is too dim. In GTS, or PCars 2 you can have a moody evening or dawn/dusk but at the same time have lights or the low sun really pop. In Forza 7 i feel that there is a hazy filter over the whole image. You can not convince me otherwise @turk1993 - i play all games on an OLED TV with HDR (except AC and PCars2, those dont have HDR unfortunatelly) so i pretty much get the best quality from each game to see and i can tell you only that when i am actually driving (i dont talk screenshots) the car models look less detailed around me in FM7 than in the other games. And for me its also okay if its only a question of taste. But i feel that i have hard evidence with the reflections and the lack or not that good ambient occlusion.
Even Digital Foundry gave the edge in car models to GT Sport for example, they did a comparison video a while ago:

 

[TheAdmiester]

They have some of the best models in Forza Vista mode, but it does not translate to what you see when driving. I followed cars from the bumper camera and to me they often look relatively bland compared to when i follow cars in the other games i mentioned.

I think you're getting a bit mixed up here. Exterior-wise, the player's gameplay model (on PC and XB1X at least) is identical to the Forzavista model. You disagreed with that but backed it up with you observing the AI from bumper camera. The AI in both games use lower LOD models than both the "fancy mode" and the player's gameplay model, so the best comparison is to only look at player cars.

 

[turk1993]

I think you're getting a bit mixed up here. Exterior-wise, the player's gameplay model (on PC and XB1X at least) is identical to the Forzavista model. You disagreed with that but backed it up with you observing the AI from bumper camera. The AI in both games use lower LOD models than both the "fancy mode" and the player's gameplay model, so the best comparison is to only look at player cars.

Interior to you can see the full interior with working speedometer in gameplay from the outside view. The only thing different is that its not rendering the engine of the car.

 

[th3o]

I think you're getting a bit mixed up here. Exterior-wise, the player's gameplay model (on PC and XB1X at least) is identical to the Forzavista model. You disagreed with that but backed it up with you observing the AI from bumper camera. The AI in both games use lower LOD models than both the "fancy mode" and the player's gameplay model, so the best comparison is to only look at player cars.

I was always refering to the AI when criticizing car models. That they look not as good as in the other games. I meant the AI the whole time. Not my own car. Quite frankly, i dont care how my car looks from the outside because i either drive hood cam or cockpit, so i need the other cars to look good and i feel that the other games have higher LOD on the AI than FM7.
Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

 

[turk1993]

They have some of the best models in Forza Vista mode, but it does not translate to what you see when driving. I followed cars from the bumper camera and to me they often look relatively bland compared to when i follow cars in the other games i mentioned. Even the pics of the A7 you posted, is the car supposed to be matte laque?
I never said that Forzas lighting is bad, i said its not as good as the competition because the contrast is lacking. The overall image is too dim. In GTS, or PCars 2 you can have a moody evening or dawn/dusk but at the same time have lights or the low sun really pop. In Forza 7 i feel that there is a hazy filter over the whole image. You can not convince me otherwise @turk1993 - i play all games on an OLED TV with HDR (except AC and PCars2, those dont have HDR unfortunatelly) so i pretty much get the best quality from each game to see and i can tell you only that when i am actually driving (i dont talk screenshots) the car models look less detailed around me in FM7 than in the other games. And for me its also okay if its only a question of taste. But i feel that i have hard evidence with the reflections and the lack or not that good ambient occlusion.
Even Digital Foundry gave the edge in car models to GT Sport for example, they did a comparison video a while ago:

I think the player model is more important than the ai models. Then you will see that GTS just like the other games use lower qulaity car models unlike Forza. Its a fact not only my opinion.

 

[th3o]

Maybe to you the player model is more important, but i dont see my own car when i drive, so i need the AI to look as good as they can. And for me in FM7 they do not look as good as in AC, GTS or PC2. Its okay to disagree, you know?

 

[TheAdmiester]

I was always refering to the AI when criticizing car models. That they look not as good as in the other games. I meant the AI the whole time. Not my own car. Quite frankly, i dont care how my car looks from the outside because i either drive hood cam or cockpit, so i need the other cars to look good and i feel that the other games have higher LOD on the AI than FM7.
Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

Not a problem. I use chase cam most of the time myself so the player car is the one I pay attention to 99% of the time.

One gripe I do have with Forza on PC is the inability to just say "screw it, I want all cars on track to have best LODs" since performance and graphics are based on my own discretion and specs. I guess they were worried people would activate settings like that mindlessly and complain about performance or something?

 

[th3o]

@TheAdmiester
That is exactly what bugs me too. I guess they simply did not want the PC version maxed out to look significantly better than the One X version as this is still a console game first and a system seller too. Assetto Corsa or PCars 2 can afford to look significantly better on PC if you have the hardware.

 

[SimTourist]

Remember these bullshots? With raytracing and all? That's at least another 10-15 years away lol

 

[turk1993]

You know whats funny, its the same car model whe have in the game right now but with better shaders, lighting and reflection. Next gen Forza will look very close to that in Forzavista.

 

[SimTourist]

You know whats funny, its the same car model whe have in the game right now but with better shaders, lighting and reflection. Next gen Forza will look very close to that in Forzavista.

Haha, without ray tracing, not a chance. Although GT Sport does look close to that already.

 

[turk1993]

Haha, without ray tracing, not a chance. Although GT Sport does look close to that already.

 

[SimTourist]

View attachment 724182

One is a CGI render using raytracing, one is a rasterized photomode shot. Despite raytracing giving more accurate reflections, smooth shadows, great ambient occlusion, I can't say that GTS is far off given the constraints of real time rendering, FM7 is nowhere close to either even in forzavista.

 

[turk1993]

One is a CGI render using raytracing, one is a rasterized photomode shot. Despite raytracing giving more accurate reflections, smooth shadows, great ambient occlusion, I can't say that GTS is far off given the constraints of real time rendering, FM7 is nowhere close to either even in forzavista.

You find that close? The difference is bigger than GT6 vs GTS. And Forza and GT look very close to each other, so saying that GTS looks close and Forza doesn't is just ********.

 

[th3o]

I think that we are at a point where everyone can create great car models if they put their minds to it. AC, PCars2, GTS and Forza Franchise. Its just all about how much LODs they can have on their models in the actual game outside of the showroom, the reflections quality, the quality of the AI LODs, the ambient occlusion during gameplay, shadow quality etc.
Also, i feel like the tracks have to step their game up more than the car models actually. I find that vegetation and track terrain detail is a key part. Tarmac and curbs are pretty good overall, but buildings, trees, bushes and gras drag the overall look of tracks down.

 

[turk1993]

I think that we are at a point where everyone can create great car models if they put their minds to it. AC, PCars2, GTS and Forza Franchise. Its just all about how much LODs they can have on their models in the actual game outside of the showroom, the reflections quality, the quality of the AI LODs, the ambient occlusion during gameplay, shadow quality etc.
Also, i feel like the tracks have to step their game up more than the car models actually. I find that vegetation and track terrain detail is a key part. Tarmac and curbs are pretty good overall, but buildings, trees, bushes and gras drag the overall look of tracks down.

I think ACC will be first game to do that

 

[th3o]

It will be maybe, but only if they won't try to cater to the current generation of consoles. I think that is what holds back the more recently released racing titles. It's not like the developers can't do nicer tracks overall, its the limiting factors of console hardware (mostly the CPUs there) that keeps them in check because of course console version sales are a big part of revenue.
As much as i want console players to get their hands on ACC too, i hope for the sake of us all getting a generational leap in graphics that they won't release this game on PS4 and XBox.

 

[SimTourist]

You find that close? The difference is bigger than GT6 vs GTS. And Forza and GT look very close to each other, so saying that GTS looks close and Forza doesn't is just ********.

Seems like you're specifically avoiding lighting conditions with direct light sources and shadows to try to avoid putting forza in a bad light (lol).

 

[th3o]

If you just compare Forza 6 with Forza 7 in this video you can see what i mean by Forza 7 being too dim. I feel like its overall too dark
Also i find that when you have light and dark in one image, that GT Sport has the superior contrast. When the sun hits the car, its brighter than the Forza games. Thats what makes the vibrancy. And i find that reflections and shadows on the car look more natural in GTS


Here also a nice example for bright/dark in GTS

 

[turk1993]

If you just compare Forza 6 with Forza 7 in this video you can see what i mean by Forza 7 being too dim. I feel like its overall too dark
Also i find that when you have light and dark in one image, that GT Sport has the superior contrast. When the sun hits the car, its brighter than the Forza games. Thats what makes the vibrancy. And i find that reflections and shadows on the car look more natural in GTS


Here also a nice example for bright/dark in GTS

GTS contrast is really superior, Forza has that hollywood look with exaggerated lighting and deep blacks. Thats a point where they need to improve next game. GT had always more natural colors wich fits perfectly with there lighting engine. There are some tracks in Forza that have really nice natural lighting like Homestead, Road Atlanta and Yas Marina.

Seems like you're specifically avoiding lighting conditions with direct light sources and shadows to try to avoid putting forza in a bad light (lol).

Im not avoiding anything, you are exaggerating when it comes to difference between Forza and GT. Specially for u with direct sunlight

 

[TheAdmiester]

Just since it's semi-relevant, you can really see where T10 stepped up their game with asset details on the newest tracks. Take the curbs and transitions (asphalt to dirt for instance) on VIR:

Also I agree with @turk1993 on the lighting part. It feels like some tracks are running on different versions of their lighting engine. I've noticed that while red cars in full sunlight tend to look odd in Forza, they actually look just right on Yas Marina's sunny setting. Would be nice to see them all running consistent lighting because Yas Marina nails it IMO.

 

[ImaRobot]

Calling GT for "Bullshots" and then posting pictures of Forza in photomode is pot-kettle. Yes, you didn't change any of the sliders, but in Photo mode Forza adds some post processing to what you focus on. Essentillay becoming it's own "Bullshot" generator.

Just to prove my point. Please note that I am playing on PC @1080p 75fps. The top is a screen grab, the bottom is Photomode with all sliders in the default position. The only thing I didn't do was "Focus" on the car.

If photomode added nothing, then the default sliders would have given me all the anti-aliasing issues the screen grab has. But that's clearly not the case.

The funny thing about this, is that the actual screen grab is a lot more clearer then the photomode image. There's a blur to the actual photomode image, and thats probably why you're seeing differences. From what I'm gathering, the fact that the screengrab is of clearer quality, it might be making a placebo affect, making you think that it's far worse off. Hell, even the car is blurry in your photomode image, leading me to believe that aperture is on and that because you didn't actually focus on the car, it left it blurry and lowered the chances of seeing the differences. It seems like you created that difference, but likely not intentionally.

If a pic receives any alteration that makes it non-indicative of how the game looks when playing it, makes it a bullshot generator.

This is a serious post? You have to literally dig to point out that a roofline is just slightly(and that's being extremely generous, extremely) different aliasing, and even though the difference is insignificant at best, it's a bullshot? Yeah, no. A bullshot would be like what we saw of Prague from pre-release of FM6, and then seeing it in game. A bullshot is something that is glaringly obvious that it's something that is absolutely not achievable from the actual game. I think you're just digging to hard to try to make your point hold some weight.

If that's the case, every single game is a bullshot generator as every game uses different LOD's at all kinds of different times which can drastically alters how things appear.

 

[Dopplegagger]

The funny thing about this, is that the actual screen grab is a lot more clearer then the photomode image. There's a blur to the actual photomode image, and thats probably why you're seeing differences. From what I'm gathering, the fact that the screengrab is of clearer quality, it might be making a placebo affect, making you think that it's far worse off. Hell, even the car is blurry in your photomode image, leading me to believe that aperture is on and that because you didn't actually focus on the car, it left it blurry and lowered the chances of seeing the differences. It seems like you created that difference, but likely not intentionally.

This is a serious post? You have to literally dig to point out that a roofline is just slightly(and that's being extremely generous, extremely) different aliasing, and even though the difference is insignificant at best, it's a bullshot? Yeah, no. A bullshot would be like what we saw of Prague from pre-release of FM6, and then seeing it in game. A bullshot is something that is glaringly obvious that it's something that is absolutely not achievable from the actual game. I think you're just digging to hard to try to make your point hold some weight.

If that's the case, every single game is a bullshot generator as every game uses different LOD's at all kinds of different times which can drastically alters how things appear.

The issue I had with the blurry WRX was with the camera motion setting. In the pics I took, the aperture was completely off/set to zero but the motion was set to 100. I figured it out when I snapped pictures of the 488 and shared them in the Photo-mode thread.

I see what you mean. After I cooled off a bit and re-examined the stupidity of my argument, I realized that Turk actually proved his point quite well. Having to dig that hard to find a difference is a stretch. Heck of a hill to die on, right?

 

[th3o]

Another good example for the dimness in Forza 7.
I think its not only a design choice, i think it's related to performance too because you'd have to have more discrete shadows if you ramp up the contrast between darkness and brightness.

 

[ImaRobot]

The issue I had with the blurry WRX was with the camera motion setting. In the pics I took, the aperture was completely off/set to zero but the motion was set to 100. I figured it out when I snapped pictures of the 488 and shared them in the Photo-mode thread.

I see what you mean. After I cooled off a bit and re-examined the stupidity of my argument, I realized that Turk actually proved his point quite well. Having to dig that hard to find a difference is a stretch. Heck of a hill to die on, right?

The argument wasn't stupid, but because of the results you had on the original blurry photos, it justified your opinion at the time, to an extent. However, you pointed out that aliasing is different between the modes, and that was correct, although it just wasn't to a significant degree.

I redid the photos over the weekend, and on the black part of the rear bumper, it seems to be the most notable difference.

Another thing is that the tire marks disappeared in photomode as well.

 

[Dopplegagger]

The heat shimmer went away as well. In the end, photo mode is still accurate and not adding enough to say it's not an accurate representation of the game.

Nevermind... Pic hosting problems.

 

[ImaRobot]

The heat shimmer went away as well. In the end, photo mode is still accurate and not adding enough to say it's not an accurate representation of the game.

I dont think my shots had heat shimmer on either of them? That seems plausible though.

I still don't think a Photo Mode shot should be compared to a game play screen grab unless the photo mode image is as faithful to the game as possible. Because even though this is a weak (and blurry) example...

I agree that an even comparison must be made, it's the only way to keep this leveled. I was just disagreeing with your original point about the actual mode.

Edited by increasing the exposure...

[/url]

Reset sliders...

The second image is about as bright as the game looks when playing it. The top is tampered with. Are they both accurate representations of the game? I'm sure that we can all agree that the overcast scenario at Sebring isn't as bright as the top pic when playing it.

Depends on the comparison to be honest, we can't really blanket them all into one group. If someone wants to compare the differences in just the models, the editing of the photomode settings wouldn't really be an issue. If we're comparing the differences between photomode and game, then no, as that would just skew the results.