They were Fools!

[787B-RX-7 Lover]

I dont think this was ever discussed before but when PD made this game and 2 they were totally racist towards americans and British people. In GT1 when you tune the Viper all the way it only has 585 or so HP that is so untrue to its real life counterpart especially considering the fact that it has like 400hp stock. Also the 1997 Cheverolet Comaro Z28 30th anniversery all the way tuned has only 415 hp from the 285 stock. In all reality these cars will make 800hp+ easy. The Cerbera has like only late 400's or mid 500's hp tune as well lame! Look I know hp is not the only thing that matters in races but it is still lame considerin the fact that the Supra RZ, Mitsubishi GTO, and Nissan Skylines get their real life tune hp figures of 800 to 900.

Anyway thoughts y'all.

 

[Gil]

The cars were all universally more difficult to drive.
However, this is all moot as we are on the fifth iteration of this game.
Also, it has been discussed ad nauseum that the Japanese cars seem to get the nod when it comes to handling and power.

It may just be that the creators of the game(s) have more access to, and experience with, the cars in their native land.

Then consider that fact that while the creators tried to make the cars "true to life" to the best of their ability, they had limited access to all the cars in the game that were not Japanese. They also had no clue at the time that this would be one of the most sought after games/game series on the damn planet!

If you were in their shoes at the creation of the first game would you spend years in development flying all over the planet to try out cars, and then try to get them exactly right not even knowing if the game is going to be any kind of success?

Then take into account that the Japanese are as honor-bound a people as exist on our little planet. Would you, after the slights of the 60's and 70's that stuff from Japan was "crap" Make a game that was going to be sold in your own country that upheld that view?

 

[787B-RX-7 Lover]

It may just be that the creators of the game(s) have more access to, and experience with, the cars in their native land.

I can defintly go with this statement.

Then consider that fact that while the creators tried to make the cars "true to life" to the best of their ability, they had limited access to all the cars in the game that were not Japanese. They also had no clue at the time that this would be one of the most sought after games/game series on the damn planet!

Well I know they had limited access to cars from other countrys but common sense still should of been used. Seeing as though an 8.0/7997cc V10 with 400hp stock only gets 585hp they should have guessed at least 700+ hp.

If you were in their shoes at the creation of the first game would you spend years in development flying all over the planet to try out cars, and then try to get them exactly right not even knowing if the game is going to be any kind of success?

Most likely not but I would certainly be more generous in my estimates.

Then take into account that the Japanese are as honor-bound a people as exist on our little planet. Would you, after the slights of the 60's and 70's that stuff from Japan was "crap" Make a game that was going to be sold in your own country that upheld that view?

[/QUOTE]

No I would not make my home countrys cars suck but I would not underestimate another countrys cars either.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I dont think this was ever discussed before but when PD made this game and 2 they were totally racist towards americans and British people. In GT1 when you tune the Viper all the way it only has 585 or so HP that is so untrue to its real life counterpart especially considering the fact that it has like 400hp stock. Also the 1997 Cheverolet Comaro Z28 30th anniversery all the way tuned has only 415 hp from the 285 stock. In all reality these cars will make 800hp+ easy. The Cerbera has like only late 400's or mid 500's hp tune as well lame! Look I know hp is not the only thing that matters in races but it is still lame considerin the fact that the Supra RZ, Mitsubishi GTO, and Nissan Skylines get their real life tune hp figures of 800 to 900.

Anyway thoughts y'all.

Racist? That's too strong a word, and not appropriate. The word "racist" implies a hatred towards another race or religion or creed--humans basically hating one another because of their skin-color or beliefs...not a general bias against another country. Before we go further, we have to also consider these points:


1). In 1995 when GT1 was in development, Kazunori was "under the gun" from Sony. He had this radical idea to include everyday cars in a video game (rather than just a bunch of super cars or fantasy machines). The idea was untested and unproven. Would it flop? Or would it be successful?

2). Since Gran Turismo was not a success yet, and was intially created in Japan by mostly Japanese people, it was easier for them to get Japanese car-makers interested than it was to start attracting American or European ones. You have to give Polyphony Digital effort for even trying to attract car-makers from outside Japan. I'm sure it took alot of work, to get the contracts ready for licensing purposes from Dodge, Chevy, TVR, and Aston Martin.

...remember that time was of the essence. Big bad Sony was probably skeptical of PD. So Kazunori & pals needed to get something on the market, get it right, and not take several years to get it done. So they go with what they know and what they can accomplish easiest.

3). If GT were made in America instead of Japan, i'm sure Ford, GM, and Chrysler would have been called first, and would have made it into the game first before other makes from around the world. Think about it. It's just easier.

4). In 1994-1995 (when GT1 was being developed), the Viper had yet to prove itself as a racing machine on a grand, global scale. The RT/10 was around since '91 or'92, the GTS didn't come along till 1996. Surely, some independent tweakers could get a Viper engine higher than 585 hp, but Dodge/MOPAR hadn't officially sponsored massive engine upgrades found in later games. Racing development for Vipers didn't truely begin getting hot (world-wide) till the Viper raced and won as an FIA-approved auto, which happened mainly in '97 and later...which is after GT1 was already on the market. I would rather see PD get their facts right rather than just "guess" at how much power a car is capable of.

5). I'll agree with you about the Camaro. It should be able to accept more power. Not sure if this is Chevrolet's fault, or PD's.

6). I'm not well-read on TVRs, so far as their racing development and history, so i can't comment. Maybe TMM knows more here


phew, i have a lot of time on my hands today!

 

[Perfect Balance]

Yes, the Japanese are racist. They hate the American race.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Yes, the Japanese are racist. They hate the American race.

How dare you. 👎

 

[LeGeNd-1]

As far as I can see, non-japanese cars in GT1 make great stock cars because of their high power right from the start. Most japanese cars suck when they're stock, but once you tune them they'll become much better. Which is appropriate since Japan is the biggest car tuner country in the world.

I think it's also worth mentioning that even though japanese cars may have an advantage in terms of power, they may not be faster around a racetrack (Test Course aside). Just think; which would be faster around SSR11, a fully-tuned Cerbera or a fully-tuned GTO TT? Which would be faster around Grand Valley, Concept Car LM or Nismo GT-R LM? I'm sure you all will agree that the Cerbera and Concept Car will be faster even though they're underpowered.

Although I do agree that non-japanese cars are disadvantaged in the first GT, I don't think giving them more power would necessarily make them better. They're hard enough to handle as they are. So as it stands, I don't have any problem with the way American and British cars are portrayed in the first game 👍

And please don't turn this thread into a flame war...

 

[787B-RX-7 Lover]

Racist? That's too strong a word, and not appropriate. The word "racist" implies a hatred towards another race or religion or creed--humans basically hating one another because of their skin-color or beliefs...not a general bias against another country. Before we go further, we have to also consider these points:

Yeah I did not mean that I was just a little mad I say stuff l dont mean alot.

1). In 1995 when GT1 was in development, Kazunori was "under the gun" from Sony. He had this radical idea to include everyday cars in a video game (rather than just a bunch of super cars or fantasy machines). The idea was untested and unproven. Would it flop? Or would it be successful?


2). Since Gran Turismo was not a success yet, and was intially created in Japan by mostly Japanese people, it was easier for them to get Japanese car-makers interested than it was to start attracting American or European ones. You have to give Polyphony Digital effort for even trying to attract car-makers from outside Japan. I'm sure it took alot of work, to get the contracts ready for licensing purposes from Dodge, Chevy, TVR, and Aston Martin.

...remember that time was of the essence. Big bad Sony was probably skeptical of PD. So Kazunori & pals needed to get something on the market, get it right, and not take several years to get it done. So they go with what they know and what they can accomplish easiest.

3). If GT were made in America instead of Japan, i'm sure Ford, GM, and Chrysler would have been called first, and would have made it into the game first before other makes from around the world. Think about it. It's just easier.

Oh I did not know about all PD's and Kazunori's hardships when first creating GT thanks for the history lesson (no pun intended).

As far as I can see, non-japanese cars in GT1 make great stock cars because of their high power right from the start. Most japanese cars suck when they're stock, but once you tune them they'll become much better. Which is appropriate since Japan is the biggest car tuner country in the world.

I did not look at that aspect the Viper and that 67 Corvette in arcade mode were beasts stock.

I think it's also worth mentioning that even though japanese cars may have an advantage in terms of power, they may not be faster around a racetrack (Test Course aside). Just think; which would be faster around SSR11, a fully-tuned Cerbera or a fully-tuned GTO TT? Which would be faster around Grand Valley, Concept Car LM or Nismo GT-R LM? I'm sure you all will agree that the Cerbera and Concept Car will be faster even though they're underpowered.

You are totally right about that the Concept LM could take the first turn a Grand Valley normal at over 85mph which the Mitsubishi could not dream of doing.

Although I do agree that non-japanese cars are disadvantaged in the first GT, I don't think giving them more power would necessarily make them better. They're hard enough to handle as they are. So as it stands, I don't have any problem with the way American and British cars are portrayed in the first game 👍

And please don't turn this thread into a flame war...

Do not worry I wont. I hate it when people turn discussions into flame wars.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I'm not trying to start a flame-war. I dont' like coming here when people are mad at each other. Honestly, that's why i dont 'hang out in the Rumble Strip too often. I just had an honest reaction to what Perfect Balance said.

I know there is plenty of racism in Japan. But to say "The Japanese are racist, they hate the American race" seems rather extreme--as though ALL Japanese people hate us on a racial level.

I think some of them certainly hate us, as many countries do right now, but the Japanese are also heavily invested in America on many levels.. They own tons of land here, they own into our stock market...they've dominated the automobile market, etc. They're not sitting back just hating us from afar--instead they've been looking to America for its opportunities. In many ways, they've certainly exploited us, too. But that's what the so-called "free trade" market is partially about...looking for ways to get ahead, without someone saying "you can't do that!"

That's a whole discussion in and of itself, and i'm not going there in any more detail since it's way off-topic.

But back on topic.



I really, really doubt Kazunori and cohorts (being the creators of it all) downgraded American and English cars in the game because they are racists. I mean, sure, maybe some of the PD staff are racist on a personal level, but that does not come across in the game just because a Viper can't accept as much power as a GTO.

For one thing, look at later GT games. In GT2, for instance, a Viper GTS can be tuned up to 716 horses. The Oreca makes nearly 700. The 3000GT (GTO) got downgraded in GT2. No more 900-horsepower Mitsu GTOs! No 900+ skylines are to be found, either.

In GT3, now we have Vipers making over 900 horses. Same goes with many other non-Japanese cars. The Camaro Z/28 now makes close to 700 horses.

In GT2, GT3, and GT4, if Kazunori/PD wanted to portray Japanese cars as Kings, and everyone else as suckers, wouldn't they have made American & Euro cars several hundred horses weaker (after upgrades) than Japanese in these later gamse?

Hence, that's why i think in GT1, PD had plenty of knowlege on Japanese cars (being Japanese themselves and having easy access to Japanese cars and car-making data and factories), but not so much knowledge on Chevy, Dodge, TVR, and Aston. So they went with what they know, and possibly what they were being told as they spoke to Chevy, TVR, Dodge, and ASton.

I have no idea if Kazunori is a racist or not. Who knows? I don't, and i dont care one way or the other. From the interviews i've read, he seems like a rather humble (but intelligent) guy who had a vision, made it into a reality, and is now very rich. And he likes collecting cameras, too.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I just had an honest reaction to what Perfect Balance said.

I know there is plenty of racism in Japan. But to say "The Japanese are racist, they hate the American race" seems rather extreme--as though ALL Japanese people hate us on a racial level. "free trade" market is partially about...looking for ways to get ahead, without someone saying "you can't do that!"

I was making a funny, if you didn't catch that. There's no such thing as an "American race."

 

[787B-RX-7 Lover]

I think I was just being a little quike on the tongue. I really dont think KY is racist especially since when he and the team made GT4 the Ford GT40 is like the trademark car of the series, I mean it is on the cover and in the booklet. He also stated on the making of GT4 video thing that the Ford GT40 was one of his favorite cars to drive.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I was making a funny, if you didn't catch that. There's no such thing as an "American race."

ah dude, i missed it!

 

[Pupik]

If Polyphony Digital was a bunch of racists, they wouldn't be grateful to the millions of buyers across the Americas, Europe, and the Middle East.

Who cares if the Mitsubishi 3000GT/GTO can get 930 horsepower or the GT-R R33 can get 900+ horses? They are both totally undriveable on anything other than the Test Course, as the Stage 4 turbos kick in at totally inopportune times, and the lag at 1000 rpm makes you want to take up crocheting instead.

Never mind it's a 10-year-old game.

I'm locking this because it's only going to roll downhill.