Tommy kaira ZZII '00

Discussion in 'GT5 Tuning' started by BlueShift, Dec 18, 2010.

  1. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    Back to the GT5 shop

    Setup updated - 22 jan 2011
    Italic values are old values, green bold values are new

    Tommy kaira ZZII '00

    Cylinder : unknown
    Power : 754 bph @ 8800 rpm
    Torque : 680 Nm @ 6800 rpm
    Transmission : Middlerear 4RM
    Weigth : 910kg

    Weigth-to-power ratio : 1.206

    ---

    Another great car !

    I think she can compete with badly tuned Nissan R34 with sligthly less bph and less kg. Good accel and brakes.

    I've been driving her about 800km to tune her, and I never fought so hard against braking oversteer and oversteer in general. She still oversteer a little while braking but anyway, I'm quite happy with this one now.

    I just ate a SLS with that car online, +5 seconds in Suzuka :D :D :D

    Open to any comments, improvements or suggestions as usual.

    ---

    All parts/oil change

    Body/Chassis
    - Dynamics (Front/Rear) : 15 / 33 (from 15 / 50)

    Transmission
    - Top Speed : 380 km/h

    Drive-train
    Adjustable LSD (Front/Rear)
    - Initial Torque : 17/50 (from 18/24)
    - Acceleration Sensitivity : 21/35 (from 28/38)
    - Braking Sensitivity : 30/15 (from 8/12)

    Torque Sensing Center Differential (Front/Rear)
    - Torque Split : 30/70 (from 25/75)

    Suspension
    Suspension (Front/Rear)
    - Ride Height : -25/-17 (from -25/+0)
    - Spring Rate : 16.6/20 (from 14.8/14.2)
    - Dampers (Extension) : 2/3 (from 2/4)
    - Dampers (Compression) : 4/6
    - Anti-Roll Bars : 4/6 (from 3/5)

    Wheel Alignment (Front/Rear)
    - Camber angle : -1.7/-0.8 (from -1.8/-1.4)
    - Toe Angle : +0.0/+0.0

    Brakes (Front/Rear)
    - Brake Balance : 4/6 (from 4/7)

    Drive aids
    - ABS : 1
    Else all off

    Tires
    - Racing Soft/Soft. Not Checked OK yet with Hard/Hard.

    Tuning circuit
    - Rome <-- 1'04.8
    - Inverse High Speed Ring
    - High Speed Ring <-- with a 350 km/h gearbox 0'59.9 woohoo :)
    - Cape Ring
    - SS 7

    22/01/2011 setup updated on :
    - High Speed Ring - 0'59.593 with a 380 gearbox (lol @ previous one)
    - Grand Valley - 1'49.490, 380 gearbox
    - Deep Forest - 1'12.424, 300 gearbox
    It's a whole new car, she deserve it. On a side note, thank you Project41 for openning my very shutted eyes on this one !

    Technical data for future tuners : true ride heigth is 80mm (so this setup is 55mm/63mm) and natural weigth distribution fully tuned should be 42%/58% (from 40%/60% stock according to google because default SR distrib are bs).
    On this setup, springs support 913kg/1260kg (42.01%/57.99%).
    The car is entirelly mathematically set up and checked performance-wise. I think I hold a LSD theory for 4RW but it needs confirmation. Other LSD and toe are out of this theory, reason for toe is I hate toe ^^

    Tips
    - if you like front reactivity, you can put +0.05 in front toe angle but that will eat you something like 5m to a 200km/h to 80 brake. GT5 have no 400m track (shame) nor topspeed track (shame again !) so I can't tell for acceleration and top speed.

    Back to the GT5 shop
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  2. StressedOutCat

    StressedOutCat

    Messages:
    21
    thanks for the setup!

    I just tried it.. works pretty well
    very 'Grippy' little car.

    At higher speeds it tends to understeer a bit
    but other than that its great setup!
     
  3. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    I learned yesterday that accel setting controls the understeer at high speed too. i'm not sure because I though the opposite (more accel sensistivity = more sensitivity = LSD lock more often = more turning ability). I try to increase out of curves traction control to setup my accel sensitivity, never tried to use that phenomenon as a indication to a too high accel setting...

    Anyway, we could alternativly remove 1 - 2 points in rear aero parts as I'm lazy for the LSD, what do you think ? Or maybe put 1-2 more point initial torque in front LSD ?
     
  4. slick1ru2

    slick1ru2

    Messages:
    527
    This has got to be the best performing car for the price. I think I paid 59k for it. It was WELL under 100k for a car that out of the box is better then some costing 3x the price.
     
  5. StressedOutCat

    StressedOutCat

    Messages:
    21
    I think its mainly the downforce..
    I will try your suggestion of reducing the aero by some points and see if that helps..

    as a side note: this setup is only good with racing soft..
    I tried it with racing hard.. and it would understeer even at slower speeds
     
  6. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    The car understeer very badly stock version. Try it just with the tuned LSD to see what I was figthing against, so yeah, Racing Soft mandatory :)
    It's still understeering even with R Soft, I agree with you and I'm unhappy with that because well driven online stock zonda will beat her : to beat that car, the LSD/camber must be reworked also.
    This one is still one of those setup I worked a lot and I'm happy with the results, but not enough.

    I'm not as happy with this like with the Scuderia. The scu is not 100% ok with hard tires, more like 70% ok. I checked too fast : I made 300km of trail mountain with hard tires, the scu is equilibrated but it still comes out of curves too hard and I think I know the reason), but largely more than my lazy Veyron that I should redo somehow (I have to work on aero on it, with the heigh and ressort strenght, else is ok). The abt is lazy also, mainly because this car is a piece of cake to tune (effects you've got are very frank), and it's a Nür version.

    I made a major mistake I learnt yesterday while tuning a Zonda to death. I was preparing a no driving aid/ABS 1/no toe version of it, just for the show because I read a lot of strange setups here for that car. Maybe it wasn't a good idea anyway, but this car have qualities that I never could imagine. I just discover a car that I didn't supspect before and was hypnotized by it.

    Anyway, this mistake was using Rome as 60% of the race I used for this ZZII setup.

    So this setup works a lot with Rome...

    I mean : as all city courses, Rome's road have no dust on it. So the grip is maximal. I know the circuit in large lines so I know what are the needed quality I search in a car. But... I know too much the curves ! Each car I make seems to be cloning themselves.

    For the zonda, I search a perfect suspension for like 6 hours on Rome. And I found it. I had THE perfect setup for the Zonda with my restrictions (fully maxed/no help but ABS 1/no toe) in this race. I was so happy... The times speaks for themselves : high 1'06 first lap, others 1'02.8 or 1'03 easy and 1'05 lazy driving.

    So I put it online in a no driving help/ABS1/racing soft tires race. I was saying to myself "Beware 4x4 ! I've got a unexpected tool of destruction !"

    Yeah unexpected destruction came.

    Mine.

    First curve in Suzuka, dusty road and lots of Kevins online behind, was first, gravel, became last. Then I said "hahaha ! this is just to make my domination better !".

    And yeah it became better. A lots of head-to-tails after, the result kicks in : 8/10. Desillusion incarnated. Other drivers must have think I was baking donuts on the road just for fun.

    I'm quite sad about that Zonda. I was planing to nickname it "The Analogic" and it became another word. I'm forced to use a 0.12 toe rear that I don't want by religiousity or something in my cars, and forced to use TCS points which is the devil to me unless on F1/group C cars.

    The only good thing I made yesterday is 3.6m tuning that car, and the FGT cost 4.85m, and I've got a great city setup for this Zonda. :)

    So... The good leasson is I will stop to use mainly one city circuit to tune a car. This car have been tested on other roads too. It's okay. Not perfect like you see, but I'm enough happy with it to post it because I won a lot of race online with it. As I said in the OT, it will win (easily, 10 sec at least) vs maxed out untuned R34 or maxed out bad setup (toe/driving aid which slows the beast) of the GT R. But not against good setups of this car.
    The bad lesson is driving helps and toe are mandatory with not Japaneese JGTC/near group C cars on most tracks.

    About this Zonda, I've not told my last word. I will kill my camber and use it on Suzuka to be 100% sure. And if it don't work, I will use some rear toe sligthly (haaa, devil, don't cross the line, haaaaaa).
    This Zonda's an enigma, the second I've got since I setup cars in GT... (first is the JGTC NSX - maybe I've got troubles with that kind of cars).
    -edit- hey with high gearbox, initial LSD open, +0.12 toe and some few TCS, GSA, ABS 1 it's a formula 1, I will post it :)

    I belieive I can fly :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  7. StressedOutCat

    StressedOutCat

    Messages:
    21
    Can't wait to try the Zonda setup..

    but the way I see it.. you can't have one car that is the best at everything..
    there will always be certain cars for certain tracks and certain race types...
    and lets not forget some car setup work for some drivers.. while that same car will be undrivable for someone else

    Like am trying to find out why people are so interested in the Ruf CTR yellow bird.. no matter what I try on what setup.. that car seems undriveable to me..
    .. guess it boils down to matter of taste..

    but anyway.. keep up the good work
    and keep those tunes coming!
     
  8. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    The zonda come in a few minutes, I'm posting it :)
    -edit- A RUF is in my projects. Please have a look at the E-type Jaguar stock setup vs the setup I posted. I think I can cure the yellow bird.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2010
  9. GreenArrow

    GreenArrow

    Messages:
    7
    Sorry, not my cup of tea at all! I'm not trying to diss anyone but I had the car with 20/80 disrribution and a simple setting before and I manage to have a 1:22 time on Trial Mountain before. With this setting I'm down to 1:25 or 1:26. now I'm trying to remember my past settings. Arrgh!!! Anyways, another thing I find out , maybe I am not bro, but for me at least I need at least ABS on 1 , with ABS off, it is ridiculously hard to drive for almost any car.CHEERS!
     
  10. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    I'm really sorry for you Green Arrow !
    This setup have still a problem of understeer, I have to update it.

    Please note that ABS is allready 1 in this setup.
     
  11. GreenArrow

    GreenArrow

    Messages:
    7
    Nah, it's all cool bro. That's the fun of trial and error in tuning. For me, the 20/80 helps the car turn a little bit easier, but a setup I copied, forgot where I got it from, the car height was really planted yet turns too easily, making it drift easily. Forgot if LSD was fiddled with, but even if it was, it was not something crazy, should be pretty normal. It was like trying to straighten a sliding car, cheers!
     
  12. Project41

    Project41

    Messages:
    81
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
  13. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    Project41, you took my LSD... Please when you do that, you can credit people you know.
    I don't really care though, because this LSD setup is crap : I've redone it but didn't posted it yet, I'm working on an update if you read the shop section.

    Rear extention > rear compression dampers make the car bouncy and even front dampers should not help it more (it's the speed of them, not the strength !!!!!! The strength is springs rates !!!!).
    Without even driving it, you made a drift car.

    Hence your fat camber and toe...
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
  14. Project41

    Project41

    Messages:
    81
    Hmm I guess I forgot to change the LSD after I tried your tune, my mistake. The LSD didnt really affect the ZZII anyways, I look forward to an update because this tune needs one. And no I didn't create a drift car, I'd be willing to make a bet that my setup for this car would perform better than the setup posted above. Also idk where you got the information for your suspension lol, but it says right in the GT5 info for tuning the suspension under Dampers Extension:

    "This is usually set to be stronger than for when they are compressed.."

    ... not my fault if you can't handle some friendly competition.

    Don't be so quick to pass judgement when I bet you didn't even try my setup, thanks.
     
  15. StressedOutCat

    StressedOutCat

    Messages:
    21
    Downforce 15/15 on your setup
    is that correct?

    also I tried your setup.. It understeers allot
    onlyway I can get the back 2 come out is if I use the handbreak.
     
  16. KForceOH

    KForceOH

    Messages:
    191
    Not to be in favor of one or the other I tried both.

    The problem I found with the tune listed here is the car has an incredible push and is almost not drivable to me. I run mainly the ring all assist off. I was really frustrated and didn't even finish the second lap.

    I then tried project41 tune and found the car to be 100 times better. I could actually make it steer and not just push like a tank through the corners.

    This car is very nice and I think it could easily go under 6:30 at the ring with some more work. Thanks to both guys.
     
  17. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    Well, I had a long post going slowly but IE ate it.

    Scaff's guides, since you mention that, didn't exist for GT1 in the 90's, you know.

    Anyway if all what it counts is results : you should ask ppl around to post their times and their times only. "Your" setup, by eye again, can't brake (not a really good point for "handling capacities"), toe/aero turns, susp understeers very badly.

    What I deeply suspect you was starting from this setup : by lowering my rear RH since you didn't understood what is it made for, you made the rear spring at twice as strong as before. Result understeer, you stiffen the front but it didn't suffice, so you started playing with front camber (btw I used the same 2/1 as you in GT4, I see exactly the point where you are on understanding the camber, but it's a lot more complicated than that, esp if you don't understand the hp/weigth/LSD/aero/toe/camber dependancies.), then toe (hey, hard spring and lot's of camber/toe on a powerfull 800kg car must be a good idea. Like F1. Yeah.), then aero ("holy it still can't turn").
    Halelulia, you've got a new car but now it can't brake, oh **** let's put 9/2.

    You made a toe/aero turning. My car was susp turning. Now, what we'd say is if we used a chrono, I guess my car is at least 4% better than yours. Anyway...

    Credit people if you use some guy's work, even for a starting point. I don't say anything else.
    Why ? Because if I would do that, I would credit guys. I never hidden the fact my "jedi master" was some guys like Rac3rX or that kind of guys.


    This LSD understeers (and I know very well this crappy LSD since I made it). You see, eyes sometimes would suffice.
    Of course some experts would say any car doesn't need some kind of a LSD bull**** device.
    But you still want me to post a new. Oh man you're quite a funny guy... :) :) :)

    Man, I will try it and tell each point which is wrong with it in your topic, but do you reeeeally want that ?
    Not before monday nigth because I travels this week end.

    Also, my best advice would be to try a 8-8 / 4-4 car and a 4-4/8-8 around a track you know very well and compare your two times : did you do that ?

    I did.

    Noticed the typo ?

    Also, I will give you the exact weigth you have on each of your spring. I think it migth be 1500kg-1800kg at least. For a 800kg car.

    -edit- I see, you removed the LSD and the 9/2 brakes... ok, remove at least 5kg on each of your spring and it should brake and turn better...
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
  18. Project41

    Project41

    Messages:
    81
    Yes that is correct, maximum front downforce makes the car turn in and handle better with speed and the rear downforce is just enough to keep the car stable without affecting the cars acceleration.. I don't understand how the only way you can make the car turn is the handbrake* .. anyways you can try "stabbing" the brake entering the turn or mid turn to redistribute the balance of the car.. I'll admit it does slightly understeer, but not to that degree.. check your tires and try something different because you must not be doing something right..

    And thank you, I may at some point make the car turn in better, I appreciate your feedback though. Would love to hear your feedback on some of my other tunes if you own those cars.

    And lastly, BlueShift, I'm sorry if I came off a little harsh, but to try to say you deserve credit for my work is a farce.. I'll admit that I should credit you for inspiring me to start my own thread and to start tuning cars.. I had enjoyed tuning some of the cars by myself, but when I tried your ZZII tune, I decided to make my own and thus created my thread. SO perhaps without your tune I would have never created mine..
     
  19. BlueShift

    BlueShift

    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    France
    Bump for the update, now no reason to make fun of it ! :)
     
  20. Sander 001

    Sander 001

    Messages:
    2,308
    This car is wonderful and perhaps a bit too stable because it understeers all day. When I read the setup I thought "damn this car must have changed a lot since GT3 because I would crank all the Diff settings to minimum."

    Anyway, I tried the suggested set up and it was good, but better when the Diff was as low as possible.

    I will attempt the Project41 tune soon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2011