torque: 44.90kgf.m/4000rpm

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ESTyler
can anyone please explain me what do the torque XX.XXkgf.m/XXXXrpm mean? it is provided with almost any car in gt4 right next to drivetrain and power. forgive me this awfully stupid question, but i'm a total beginner and i just want to know what does it actually mean cause i'm pretty sure that it's useful information and i would like to get the most of it.


also. power is stated in PS? whats a ps? i know HP is horsepower but PS?

thanks in advance.
 
the torque is a measure of force by spin. It measures the force from the rotation of the drive shaft. There it is listed as kilogram feet /minute i think. and the rpms are what ever rpm it peaks at. In general torque is what gives you your acceleration. Look for a kg to torque number that is smaller for more acceleration.
 
Torque is the rotational moment on the crankshaft, in other words it is how much force the engine is producing. Power (HP or PS, both the same, just different languages) is the rotational force multiplied by the RMP.

A engine with little torque can still produce big HP if it can rev very high (see F1 engines), A low revving engine with high HP usualy has bags of torque and can easaly haul huge loads (diesel engines).

Torque is given in kilogram per meter in japan, newtons per meter in europe and pounds per foot in the US.

Say an engine produces 100 Nm (newtonmeters) at a certain rpm, this means that to stop the engine, you will need to aply at 10 kilogram load (10 Nm = 1 KG) at the end of a 1 meter pole perpendicular to the crankshaft.
 
Tell me what is the ratio between kgf.m and Nm, how many Nms one kgf.m is?
And how many BHP one PS is? <= it's almost same but there is a little difference.
 
so theoretically, if i change gear at exactly 4000rpm on the given car, it gives best results?
 
so theoretically, if i change gear at exactly 4000rpm on the given car, it gives best results?

Depends on the motor and the transmission. Say you have a small block 350 that makes 400 ft pounds of at 3500 RPM. You want to shift when the next gear will hit that head on. Which is usually a few hundred RPM higher. Well, for drag racing atleast. Its all I know. Hope it helps.
James-
 
No, you will always want to shift at the point where the car has most HP which is near the rev limit. you will however want to set your gear ratios up to let the revs fall back to near the maximum torque when you shift up. (exactly what point depending on track and conditions)
 
DeltaS4
Tell me what is the ratio between kgf.m and Nm, how many Nms one kgf.m is?
And how many BHP one PS is? <= it's almost same but there is a little difference.

Multiply by 9.807 and you get your Nm number :)

And 1hp is +- 0.985 bhp

Greetz,

Quattro
 
If you want to have the ratio, look at the Mercedes CL65. It has infamous 1000 Nm. I dont know how much kgf/m it has, but now you can calculate ;)
 
Mukai
If you want to have the ratio, look at the Mercedes CL65. It has infamous 1000 Nm. I dont know how much kgf/m it has, but now you can calculate ;)

1026 Nm to be exact ;)
 
The "falling back near maximum torque" thing is a myth. Theorically you get maximum acceleration by having infinite gears to keep your engine around peak power rpms (well, CVT transmissions already do this anyway). In real life, with a manual transmission, to maximize acceleration you have always to shift gears after peak power. How much after? It depends on your engine's power curve and gearing.

In general, anyway, you have to make sure that when you shift a gear, power available at your next gear's initial rpms shouldn't be lower (to every possible extent, that is) than power available at your shift point.

It's power that makes the car accelerate fast, not torque. F1 cars do not have much torque but have plenty of power because their engines run at very high rpms, have very narrow powerbands and 6-7 gears. Power is proportional to torque * rpms. Of course, they're blazingly fast.
 
Quattro
Multiply by 9.807 and you get your Nm number :)

And 1hp is +- 0.985 bhp

Greetz,

Quattro

That is completely false. Power is calculated from toque using the following formula: Power = 2 x pi x RPM (in revs per sec) x Torque

As for the difference of HP and BHP, HP is mesured in a test bench with the engine running without any auxillary systems like alternators, aircon or oil pump, they are run sepperately from the engine and thus don't consume any of the engines power.

BHP is mesured on a test bench with all the systems attached, as it would be in an actual car, the resulting figure will be slightly lower because the systems will eat a small part away to power themselves. But the difference is dependant on how much power the auxillary systems consume.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
The "falling back near maximum torque" thing is a myth. Theorically you get maximum acceleration by having infinite gears to keep your engine around peak power rpms (well, CVT transmissions already do this anyway). In real life, with a manual transmission, to maximize acceleration you have always to shift gears after peak power. How much after? It depends on your engine's power curve and gearing.

In general, anyway, you have to make sure that when you shift a gear, power available at your next gear's initial rpms shouldn't be lower (to every possible extent, that is) than power available at your shift point.

It's power that makes the car accelerate fast, not torque. F1 cars do not have much torque but have plenty of power because their engines run at very high rpms, have very narrow powerbands and 6-7 gears. Power is proportional to torque * rpms. Of course, they're blazingly fast.

I'm sorry, you are correct. what I said about setting up the gear ratios was me remembering this old myth and adding it in. My appologies.
 
PS is the german translation for horsepower, also used in Japan.
PS (Pferdstärke) = HP (horsepower)
 
1 PS (pferdstärke, used in NTSC/J GT4) = 0.7355 Kw = 0.9863 Hp
1 kgfm = 9.8067 Nm = 7.233 lbf/ft
 
FLY.GT
PS is the german translation for horsepower, also used in Japan.
PS (Pferdstärke) = HP (horsepower)

hehe, and it's CV in france isn't it? ;)
 
Ravell
That is completely false. Power is calculated from toque using the following formula: Power = 2 x pi x RPM (in revs per sec) x Torque

As for the difference of HP and BHP, HP is mesured in a test bench with the engine running without any auxillary systems like alternators, aircon or oil pump, they are run sepperately from the engine and thus don't consume any of the engines power.

BHP is mesured on a test bench with all the systems attached, as it would be in an actual car, the resulting figure will be slightly lower because the systems will eat a small part away to power themselves. But the difference is dependant on how much power the auxillary systems consume.

good explenation, but it is a simple method to achieve the numbers you want:

Take a Mercedes E55: 476BHP x 0.985 : 469HP
Take an Audi RS6: 450 x 0.985 : 443BHP
...

Same with the torque:

E55: 71.4 x 9.807 : 700Nm
RS6: 57.1 x 9.807 : 560Nm

you see :)
 
Thanks for the info. I was wondering how to convert torque to lb/ft.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
The "falling back near maximum torque" thing is a myth. Theorically you get maximum acceleration by having infinite gears to keep your engine around peak power rpms (well, CVT transmissions already do this anyway). In real life, with a manual transmission, to maximize acceleration you have always to shift gears after peak power. How much after? It depends on your engine's power curve and gearing.

In general, anyway, you have to make sure that when you shift a gear, power available at your next gear's initial rpms shouldn't be lower (to every possible extent, that is) than power available at your shift point.

It's power that makes the car accelerate fast, not torque. F1 cars do not have much torque but have plenty of power because their engines run at very high rpms, have very narrow powerbands and 6-7 gears. Power is proportional to torque * rpms. Of course, they're blazingly fast.

Hiya! :D :O :lol: Meow! (='.'=)

Good info! 👍 But what I would also like to know about this shifting thing is what about regular driving? Assuming that you aren't racing on the drag strip/track? Where do you want to shift if you are driving normally?
 
I didn't know we had so many Einsteins on this boards.
 
McLaren'sAngel
Hiya! :D :O :lol: Meow! (='.'=)

Good info! 👍 But what I would also like to know about this shifting thing is what about regular driving? Assuming that you aren't racing on the drag strip/track? Where do you want to shift if you are driving normally?

When I drive normally I accelerate quickly to cruising speed, shifting gear at around peak torque (at 2800 rpms in my car). Then I engage the tallest gear to minimize fuel consumption.
 
1twojay
I didn't know we had so many Einsteins on this boards.

no kidding, i'd have to be referencing these formulas, & they are firing them off like their home phone numbers.
 
lol google most likely. I can never remember them after I took a test or something. I do wish GT4 included an option to select different standards for the power #s. That way we can import and not worry about converting stuff. Just another hassle I suppose
 
and another delay
 
Okay... *cracks knuckles*

Power is a myth. It is derived from torque.

Torque is mass mutiplied by distance - so it is always measured in massdistance NOT mass per distance. These measurements are Newtonmetres (Nm), kilogrammetres (kgm) or footpounds (lbft).

The units given in GT4 seem to be "kilograms of force.metres" - fairly ungainly...


Power is torque per unit time. 550 lbft per second is 1 horsepower (1hp). 75 kgm per second is 1 Pferdenstarke (1PS - also Chevalvapeur, 1CV). As the magic of mathematics would have it, 1PS is VERY NEARLY the same as 1hp - in fact 1PS = 0.986hp. So 200PS is just a little over 197hp.
 
I have studied this one for several years now so allow me to offer my version.

The formulae I have seen are correct. I am going to stay as far away from them as possible for those less inclined.

Acceleration
Acceleration of a car depends on many factors, not just HP (power) or Tq (torque). Real life vehicle acceleration depends on:

1. Mass (how heavy the car is)
2. Torque (how much rotating force the ENGINE can deliver)
3. Gearing (how much rotating force the POWERTRAIN can actually deliver to axle)
4. Tire (how much of the final rotating force can rubber transfer to asphalt)
5. Surface (how much friction can the surface provide against the tire)
6. Driver (how fast can he/she efficiently manipulate 2 & 3 above?)

As you can see neither Tq nor HP determines how fast a car accelerates. Actually, do you see HP in the above list? Let me first elaborate on the above 1~5, 6 being pretty obvious.

1. Mass. This one is easy. Lighter the car, the faster it accelerates. That is, if 2 cars have Tq but one is 800 kg and the other is 1000 kg, then the 800 kg car will accelerate faster.

2. Torque. This one can be easy but not. Torque is a rotational force. When you screw in a bolt you are applying torque or rotation with force. Engine provides rotational force. Engine also has a torque band. Torque band is a range of RPM at which the engine provides most of its maximum torque. Therefore, 215 ft-lbs @3500 RPM does not paint the whole picture. Important thing is at what range does the engine provide 90% of 215 ft-lbs or torque? An engine with a broad torque band may produce this torque from 2000 ~ 6000 RPM. An engine with a narrow torque band may produce same torque from 2500 ~ 5000 RPM. This is called a 'peaky' engine. In general, an engine with a shorter stroke with bigger cylinder bores tend to be peaky with high RPM (JPN cars). In general, an engine with a longer stroke with smaller cylinder bores tend to be broad torqued (NA, European cars). Now, I say 'general' so don't quote me on it. Enough about torque so I'll get to shifting into 'powerband' as well as power later.

3. Gearing. This is also pretty easy but not easily understood. See, engine does not have enough torque to move engine when the car is stationary. That is why the engine stalls if you let out clutch suddenly. Let's take example of 700 Nm. If you think about it, that's not very much torque. 700 Nm is roughly 70 kg of mass hung on a stick 1 m long. Do you really think a man (weighing 70 kg) hanging at the end of 1 m long is sufficient to accelerate a 1500 kg car? Like a bicycle maybe! What you need is gearing. Gearing MULTIPLIES the engine torque. Now, there are 2 gear sets. The 'DRIVE' gear that the driver manipulates, and the 'FINAL' gear at the differential for RWD. When you hear 5 speed or 6 speed, it is referring to the number of 'DRIVE' gears. A 6 speed gear may have 4.35 (1st), 2.50 (2nd), 1.60 (3rd), 1.23 (4th), 1.00 (5th), and 0.85 (6th) with the 'FINAL' gear of 2.93. 6th gear has ration less than 1.0. This is called 'OVERDRIVE'. What this really means is that the transmission output shaft is rotating FASTER than the engine crankshaft. But what does all this mean when it comes to torque? It means that 700 Nm of ENGINE torque will become 700x4.35 Nm = 3045 Nm. Now we are talking! But that's not it. 3045 Nm of transmission output torque is further multiplied by the FINAL gear ratio of 2.93 which is 3045x2.93 Nm = 8922 Nm! This is of course divided between the 2 driving wheels so each driving axle delivers 8922/2 = 4461 Nm (or about 450 kg hanging off 1 meter long stick) or torque. A tire is about 0.6 m in diameter. So each driving tire will see about 4461 / 0.6 = 7435 N of force. Or the car is 'virtually' feeling 7435 x 2 = 14870 N of push or approximately 1500 kg of push. Say, wasn't that the mass of the car? That means Engine-Drivetrain combo is 'capable' of providing 1g of acceleration, fascinating! Going back to shifting using gear ratios above, if you are driving at 4350 RPM (4.35 1st gear ratio) and shift to 2nd gear, you would fall at about 2500 RPM (2.50 2nd gear ratio). If you are getting good torque at 2500 RPM, great. If not, you would need to drive at higher 1st gear RPM before shifting. For normal city driving, 3000 RPM is good. For competition in stock gear, the transmission is designed so that if you upshift near redline, the next gear would fall generally in 'good' torque band. For competition in racing gear, you would want to set it up so every upshift would land the gear within the torque band. This is why a broad torque band is good.

4. Before I get too excited and forget about what I am talking about, let's move onto Tires. 1g of acceleration typically this does not happen because the tire cannot deliver 7435 N because the tire physically cannot. I think a typical tire can provide about 1.2 times of force acting on it. So for a 1500 kg car, ideal front-rear 50%-50% distribution, each tire will be supporting 1500x0.5 / 2 = 375 kg or about 3750 N of weight. Therefore each tire can only generate 3750 x 1.2 = 4500 N of push. So we have approximately 3000 N of excess force, which goes to 'burning rubber'. In real life, a race tire will give you higher grip or say a factor of 1.5 (this is called friction coefficient). Also, aerodynamic downforce puts more 'weight' on each tire, therefore increasing grip. Therefore, spinning your tire does not give you better acceleration. However, it does heat up your tires which allows the tire to become more 'sticky' or provide higher friction coefficient.

5. Surface. A tire cannot have a coefficient of friction against air. CoF is always between 2 surfaces, never by itself. Afterall, you cannot clap with one hand no matter how many Zen monks tell you otherwise. A tire on ice will have different CoF than on asphalt. On watery ice, the CoF will be close to zero. Therefore you have to apply very gentle throttle and brake. So, why then does a wide summer tire not good for snowy winter roads? Isn't wider the better? Not really. In summer, you want the wide tires so the tire to road contact force is as low as possible. This allows better grip. On snow however, having a wide contact surface is not good because it will slip more easily. Therefore you need special grooves on the tires as well as narrower tires to provide 'mechanical' grip. (this is different mechanical grip that race drivers/engineers talk about). Therefore in summer, you have to rely more on rubber compound for grip, and rely on tire tread designs in winter as well as compound for grip.

I am tired. If you need more info, go do a research . . .

Before I finish, I have to complete the never ending argument between power and torque. Torque, is a physical thing that you can actually feel. Go twist your arm right now. That's torque. Power is not as intuitive. Power is actually torque multiplied by rotational speed (often expressed in RPM). Therefore 700 Nm of torque at 2000 RPM has twice the power than the same torque at 1000 RPM. Think of car as a 100m sprinter. Amount of 'push' that the sprinter can deliver is torque. How fast the sprinter can move his legs is power. A skinny legged runner that can move his legs very quickly can be fast. So can a muscular runner that can cover more distance with each stride. They both have same power. Which is better? There is always an ideal balance and each application requires different attributes, eg. marathon, 100m sprint, 1000m, cross country, etc.

Therefore, is it torque or is it power? Neither. It is a combination of above factors. A lighter, lower HP, better torque characteristics and gearing WITH a better shifting driver can always outdrive a lesser high HP car.

My verdict is, "It's not how fast the car is capable of, it's 'WHAT' the driver can get out of the car."
 
GRD-4-3L
I have studied this one for several years now so allow me to offer my version.

The formulae I have seen are correct. I am going to stay as far away from them as possible for those less inclined.

Acceleration
Acceleration of a car depends on many factors, not just HP (power) or Tq (torque). Real life vehicle acceleration depends on:

1. Mass (how heavy the car is)
2. Torque (how much rotating force the ENGINE can deliver)
3. Gearing (how much rotating force the POWERTRAIN can actually deliver to axle)
4. Tire (how much of the final rotating force can rubber transfer to asphalt)
5. Surface (how much friction can the surface provide against the tire)
6. Driver (how fast can he/she efficiently manipulate 2 & 3 above?)

As you can see neither Tq nor HP determines how fast a car accelerates. Actually, do you see HP in the above list? Let me first elaborate on the above 1~5, 6 being pretty obvious.

1. Mass. This one is easy. Lighter the car, the faster it accelerates. That is, if 2 cars have Tq but one is 800 kg and the other is 1000 kg, then the 800 kg car will accelerate faster.

2. Torque. This one can be easy but not. Torque is a rotational force. When you screw in a bolt you are applying torque or rotation with force. Engine provides rotational force. Engine also has a torque band. Torque band is a range of RPM at which the engine provides most of its maximum torque. Therefore, 215 ft-lbs @3500 RPM does not paint the whole picture. Important thing is at what range does the engine provide 90% of 215 ft-lbs or torque? An engine with a broad torque band may produce this torque from 2000 ~ 6000 RPM. An engine with a narrow torque band may produce same torque from 2500 ~ 5000 RPM. This is called a 'peaky' engine. In general, an engine with a shorter stroke with bigger cylinder bores tend to be peaky with high RPM (JPN cars). In general, an engine with a longer stroke with smaller cylinder bores tend to be broad torqued (NA, European cars). Now, I say 'general' so don't quote me on it. Enough about torque so I'll get to shifting into 'powerband' as well as power later.

3. Gearing. This is also pretty easy but not easily understood. See, engine does not have enough torque to move engine when the car is stationary. That is why the engine stalls if you let out clutch suddenly. Let's take example of 700 Nm. If you think about it, that's not very much torque. 700 Nm is roughly 70 kg of mass hung on a stick 1 m long. Do you really think a man (weighing 70 kg) hanging at the end of 1 m long is sufficient to accelerate a 1500 kg car? Like a bicycle maybe! What you need is gearing. Gearing MULTIPLIES the engine torque. Now, there are 2 gear sets. The 'DRIVE' gear that the driver manipulates, and the 'FINAL' gear at the differential for RWD. When you hear 5 speed or 6 speed, it is referring to the number of 'DRIVE' gears. A 6 speed gear may have 4.35 (1st), 2.50 (2nd), 1.60 (3rd), 1.23 (4th), 1.00 (5th), and 0.85 (6th) with the 'FINAL' gear of 2.93. 6th gear has ration less than 1.0. This is called 'OVERDRIVE'. What this really means is that the transmission output shaft is rotating FASTER than the engine crankshaft. But what does all this mean when it comes to torque? It means that 700 Nm of ENGINE torque will become 700x4.35 Nm = 3045 Nm. Now we are talking! But that's not it. 3045 Nm of transmission output torque is further multiplied by the FINAL gear ratio of 2.93 which is 3045x2.93 Nm = 8922 Nm! This is of course divided between the 2 driving wheels so each driving axle delivers 8922/2 = 4461 Nm (or about 450 kg hanging off 1 meter long stick) or torque. A tire is about 0.6 m in diameter. So each driving tire will see about 4461 / 0.6 = 7435 N of force. Or the car is 'virtually' feeling 7435 x 2 = 14870 N of push or approximately 1500 kg of push. Say, wasn't that the mass of the car? That means Engine-Drivetrain combo is 'capable' of providing 1g of acceleration, fascinating! Going back to shifting using gear ratios above, if you are driving at 4350 RPM (4.35 1st gear ratio) and shift to 2nd gear, you would fall at about 2500 RPM (2.50 2nd gear ratio). If you are getting good torque at 2500 RPM, great. If not, you would need to drive at higher 1st gear RPM before shifting. For normal city driving, 3000 RPM is good. For competition in stock gear, the transmission is designed so that if you upshift near redline, the next gear would fall generally in 'good' torque band. For competition in racing gear, you would want to set it up so every upshift would land the gear within the torque band. This is why a broad torque band is good.

4. Before I get too excited and forget about what I am talking about, let's move onto Tires. 1g of acceleration typically this does not happen because the tire cannot deliver 7435 N because the tire physically cannot. I think a typical tire can provide about 1.2 times of force acting on it. So for a 1500 kg car, ideal front-rear 50%-50% distribution, each tire will be supporting 1500x0.5 / 2 = 375 kg or about 3750 N of weight. Therefore each tire can only generate 3750 x 1.2 = 4500 N of push. So we have approximately 3000 N of excess force, which goes to 'burning rubber'. In real life, a race tire will give you higher grip or say a factor of 1.5 (this is called friction coefficient). Also, aerodynamic downforce puts more 'weight' on each tire, therefore increasing grip. Therefore, spinning your tire does not give you better acceleration. However, it does heat up your tires which allows the tire to become more 'sticky' or provide higher friction coefficient.

5. Surface. A tire cannot have a coefficient of friction against air. CoF is always between 2 surfaces, never by itself. Afterall, you cannot clap with one hand no matter how many Zen monks tell you otherwise. A tire on ice will have different CoF than on asphalt. On watery ice, the CoF will be close to zero. Therefore you have to apply very gentle throttle and brake. So, why then does a wide summer tire not good for snowy winter roads? Isn't wider the better? Not really. In summer, you want the wide tires so the tire to road contact force is as low as possible. This allows better grip. On snow however, having a wide contact surface is not good because it will slip more easily. Therefore you need special grooves on the tires as well as narrower tires to provide 'mechanical' grip. (this is different mechanical grip that race drivers/engineers talk about). Therefore in summer, you have to rely more on rubber compound for grip, and rely on tire tread designs in winter as well as compound for grip.

I am tired. If you need more info, go do a research . . .

Before I finish, I have to complete the never ending argument between power and torque. Torque, is a physical thing that you can actually feel. Go twist your arm right now. That's torque. Power is not as intuitive. Power is actually torque multiplied by rotational speed (often expressed in RPM). Therefore 700 Nm of torque at 2000 RPM has twice the power than the same torque at 1000 RPM. Think of car as a 100m sprinter. Amount of 'push' that the sprinter can deliver is torque. How fast the sprinter can move his legs is power. A skinny legged runner that can move his legs very quickly can be fast. So can a muscular runner that can cover more distance with each stride. They both have same power. Which is better? There is always an ideal balance and each application requires different attributes, eg. marathon, 100m sprint, 1000m, cross country, etc.

Therefore, is it torque or is it power? Neither. It is a combination of above factors. A lighter, lower HP, better torque characteristics and gearing WITH a better shifting driver can always outdrive a lesser high HP car.

My verdict is, "It's not how fast the car is capable of, it's 'WHAT' the driver can get out of the car."

My god did u just type that up.
 
1twojay
My god did u just type that up.

The time difference between my post and the previous one tells the story. Needless to say, my fingers are pretty tired.
 
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