torque: 44.90kgf.m/4000rpm

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McLaren'sAngel
Hiya! :D :O :lol: Meow! (='.'=)

Good info! 👍 But what I would also like to know about this shifting thing is what about regular driving? Assuming that you aren't racing on the drag strip/track? Where do you want to shift if you are driving normally?


When you are driving around town normally your priority migth be to save fuel. To do this, excellerate smoothly, and change up a gear as early as you can (obviously not too early). You want to be in the highest gear that you still have enough power in. To slow down, take your foot off the accelerator and/or brake gently and smoothly when you need to.

You'll be overtaken by sunday-driving grandmas, but you'll make a noticable fuel saving.
 
GRD-4-3L
I have studied this one for several years now so allow me to offer my version.
....

My verdict is, "It's not how fast the car is capable of, it's 'WHAT' the driver can get out of the car."

Brilliant explanation, as good as I have ever read... I will be printing this out for my kids so that they can get an appreciation of what I have tried to explain for too long, thank you...
 
trEVO
When you are driving around town normally your priority migth be to save fuel. To do this, excellerate smoothly, and change up a gear as early as you can (obviously not too early). You want to be in the highest gear that you still have enough power in. To slow down, take your foot off the accelerator and/or brake gently and smoothly when you need to.

You'll be overtaken by sunday-driving grandmas, but you'll make a noticable fuel saving.

Hiya! :D :O :lol: Meow! (='.'=)

Thanks for the info! :O 👍

GRD-4-3L. I really love how informative your info is! :O It is worth the time to read and print it out for future info! :O:cheers:
 
GRD-4-3L
I have studied this one for several years now so allow me to offer my version.

The formulae I have seen are correct. I am going to stay as far away from them as possible for those less inclined.

Acceleration
Acceleration of a car depends on many factors, not just HP (power) or Tq (torque). Real life vehicle acceleration depends on:

1. Mass (how heavy the car is)
2. Torque (how much rotating force the ENGINE can deliver)
3. Gearing (how much rotating force the POWERTRAIN can actually deliver to axle)
4. Tire (how much of the final rotating force can rubber transfer to asphalt)
5. Surface (how much friction can the surface provide against the tire)
6. Driver (how fast can he/she efficiently manipulate 2 & 3 above?)

As you can see neither Tq nor HP determines how fast a car accelerates. Actually, do you see HP in the above list? Let me first elaborate on the above 1~5, 6 being pretty obvious.

1. Mass. This one is easy. Lighter the car, the faster it accelerates. That is, if 2 cars have Tq but one is 800 kg and the other is 1000 kg, then the 800 kg car will accelerate faster.

2. Torque. This one can be easy but not. Torque is a rotational force. When you screw in a bolt you are applying torque or rotation with force. Engine provides rotational force. Engine also has a torque band. Torque band is a range of RPM at which the engine provides most of its maximum torque. Therefore, 215 ft-lbs @3500 RPM does not paint the whole picture. Important thing is at what range does the engine provide 90% of 215 ft-lbs or torque? An engine with a broad torque band may produce this torque from 2000 ~ 6000 RPM. An engine with a narrow torque band may produce same torque from 2500 ~ 5000 RPM. This is called a 'peaky' engine. In general, an engine with a shorter stroke with bigger cylinder bores tend to be peaky with high RPM (JPN cars). In general, an engine with a longer stroke with smaller cylinder bores tend to be broad torqued (NA, European cars). Now, I say 'general' so don't quote me on it. Enough about torque so I'll get to shifting into 'powerband' as well as power later.

3. Gearing. This is also pretty easy but not easily understood. See, engine does not have enough torque to move engine when the car is stationary. That is why the engine stalls if you let out clutch suddenly. Let's take example of 700 Nm. If you think about it, that's not very much torque. 700 Nm is roughly 70 kg of mass hung on a stick 1 m long. Do you really think a man (weighing 70 kg) hanging at the end of 1 m long is sufficient to accelerate a 1500 kg car? Like a bicycle maybe! What you need is gearing. Gearing MULTIPLIES the engine torque. Now, there are 2 gear sets. The 'DRIVE' gear that the driver manipulates, and the 'FINAL' gear at the differential for RWD. When you hear 5 speed or 6 speed, it is referring to the number of 'DRIVE' gears. A 6 speed gear may have 4.35 (1st), 2.50 (2nd), 1.60 (3rd), 1.23 (4th), 1.00 (5th), and 0.85 (6th) with the 'FINAL' gear of 2.93. 6th gear has ration less than 1.0. This is called 'OVERDRIVE'. What this really means is that the transmission output shaft is rotating FASTER than the engine crankshaft. But what does all this mean when it comes to torque? It means that 700 Nm of ENGINE torque will become 700x4.35 Nm = 3045 Nm. Now we are talking! But that's not it. 3045 Nm of transmission output torque is further multiplied by the FINAL gear ratio of 2.93 which is 3045x2.93 Nm = 8922 Nm! This is of course divided between the 2 driving wheels so each driving axle delivers 8922/2 = 4461 Nm (or about 450 kg hanging off 1 meter long stick) or torque. A tire is about 0.6 m in diameter. So each driving tire will see about 4461 / 0.6 = 7435 N of force. Or the car is 'virtually' feeling 7435 x 2 = 14870 N of push or approximately 1500 kg of push. Say, wasn't that the mass of the car? That means Engine-Drivetrain combo is 'capable' of providing 1g of acceleration, fascinating! Going back to shifting using gear ratios above, if you are driving at 4350 RPM (4.35 1st gear ratio) and shift to 2nd gear, you would fall at about 2500 RPM (2.50 2nd gear ratio). If you are getting good torque at 2500 RPM, great. If not, you would need to drive at higher 1st gear RPM before shifting. For normal city driving, 3000 RPM is good. For competition in stock gear, the transmission is designed so that if you upshift near redline, the next gear would fall generally in 'good' torque band. For competition in racing gear, you would want to set it up so every upshift would land the gear within the torque band. This is why a broad torque band is good.

4. Before I get too excited and forget about what I am talking about, let's move onto Tires. 1g of acceleration typically this does not happen because the tire cannot deliver 7435 N because the tire physically cannot. I think a typical tire can provide about 1.2 times of force acting on it. So for a 1500 kg car, ideal front-rear 50%-50% distribution, each tire will be supporting 1500x0.5 / 2 = 375 kg or about 3750 N of weight. Therefore each tire can only generate 3750 x 1.2 = 4500 N of push. So we have approximately 3000 N of excess force, which goes to 'burning rubber'. In real life, a race tire will give you higher grip or say a factor of 1.5 (this is called friction coefficient). Also, aerodynamic downforce puts more 'weight' on each tire, therefore increasing grip. Therefore, spinning your tire does not give you better acceleration. However, it does heat up your tires which allows the tire to become more 'sticky' or provide higher friction coefficient.

5. Surface. A tire cannot have a coefficient of friction against air. CoF is always between 2 surfaces, never by itself. Afterall, you cannot clap with one hand no matter how many Zen monks tell you otherwise. A tire on ice will have different CoF than on asphalt. On watery ice, the CoF will be close to zero. Therefore you have to apply very gentle throttle and brake. So, why then does a wide summer tire not good for snowy winter roads? Isn't wider the better? Not really. In summer, you want the wide tires so the tire to road contact force is as low as possible. This allows better grip. On snow however, having a wide contact surface is not good because it will slip more easily. Therefore you need special grooves on the tires as well as narrower tires to provide 'mechanical' grip. (this is different mechanical grip that race drivers/engineers talk about). Therefore in summer, you have to rely more on rubber compound for grip, and rely on tire tread designs in winter as well as compound for grip.

I am tired. If you need more info, go do a research . . .

Before I finish, I have to complete the never ending argument between power and torque. Torque, is a physical thing that you can actually feel. Go twist your arm right now. That's torque. Power is not as intuitive. Power is actually torque multiplied by rotational speed (often expressed in RPM). Therefore 700 Nm of torque at 2000 RPM has twice the power than the same torque at 1000 RPM. Think of car as a 100m sprinter. Amount of 'push' that the sprinter can deliver is torque. How fast the sprinter can move his legs is power. A skinny legged runner that can move his legs very quickly can be fast. So can a muscular runner that can cover more distance with each stride. They both have same power. Which is better? There is always an ideal balance and each application requires different attributes, eg. marathon, 100m sprint, 1000m, cross country, etc.

Therefore, is it torque or is it power? Neither. It is a combination of above factors. A lighter, lower HP, better torque characteristics and gearing WITH a better shifting driver can always outdrive a lesser high HP car.

My verdict is, "It's not how fast the car is capable of, it's 'WHAT' the driver can get out of the car."
I don't post here frequently (actually, almost never), though I do lurk. Thank you for this. You saved me a great deal of time in explaining these concepts.

I would like to post a couple summarized points:

-HP (power) is simply a function of torque. Work over time. If you look at the HP/TQ formula, you'll note that power derives from both the torque value and the rpm at which that value occurs. High power, low torque engines MUST be high revving, or else they would be low power, low torque engines. And, of course, a high rev limit allows substantial liberties with gearing. Given that you can use more aggressive ratios while still attaining decent road speeds per gear - otherwise, you're left with what I like to call "truck syndrome" - a car that uses up it's low speed high multiplication gears too early (and probably produces too much drive force for available traction in those low gears anyway) and overall acceleration suffers greatly as a result. You've already explained why gearing matters, so it should be simple enough to see why aggressive gearing can be of tremendous benefit.

And your example ratios are taken from the 330i 6MT, are they not? Nice car, I have one...
 
Dev_Zero
You're wrong there. The engine actually produces 1205Nm of torque, but they electronically limit the engine to an output of 1000Nm.

Indeed, they reduce the torque for the gearbox but I was saying that it doesn't have 1000Nm as stated in most of the magazines or orticles, but even 1026Nm :)

source;
"Aber versuch das mal mit nem CL 65 AMG- 1026Nm @ 2000 UPm ".....
 
Nice info, this should help with tuning in GT as well.
If you want to put it to use in gear ratio tuning here is what I use to guess what ratios to use to keep the engine in the powerband (although there are other factors in choosing ratios of course)

I remember reading it on these boards ages ago:

Taking the example from above of 1st gear - 4.35 and 2nd gear 2.50, divide 2.50/4.35 = 0.5747.

Now multiply this number (0.5747) by the number of the RPM you shift at (e.g.6000RPM) = 3448.2

This is roughly how far back the RPM will drop down to from an upshift at 6000RPM in 1st to 2nd - 6000 - 3448.2 = 2551.8

akhbhaat
-HP (power) is simply a function of torque. Work over time. If you look at the HP/TQ formula, you'll note that power derives from both the torque value and the rpm at which that value occurs. High power, low torque engines MUST be high revving, or else they would be low power, low torque engines. And, of course, a high rev limit allows substantial liberties with gearing. Given that you can use more aggressive ratios while still attaining decent road speeds per gear - otherwise, you're left with what I like to call "truck syndrome" - a car that uses up it's low speed high multiplication gears too early (and probably produces too much drive force for available traction in those low gears anyway) and overall acceleration suffers greatly as a result. You've already explained why gearing matters, so it should be simple enough to see why aggressive gearing can be of tremendous benefit.

I don't understand what you're trying to say - do you mean that higher revving cars are better because you stay in the lower gears longer??
 
GRD-4-3L is totally right but some people may feel lost with such a technical explanation. I'll give you a few tips to identify torque and power in your own cars (I know it's not totally accurate, but this is how I have always translated it to common words for non-technical people):

We can say torque is the "pushing back against the seat" feeling when you step on the gas pedal and power is how long you feel it.

An engine with high torque will respond with strength while being in the torque band, you will feel it when accelerating from 0, or when recovering in a long gear without changing to a shorter one.

If you have ever drive a TDI, and you compare it with a regular gas car, you see it accelerates from 0 faster in the first meters than a regular gas car, because they have high torque starting even at low RPMs, but as the only have 100-150 HP (depending on the model) the sensation of pushing you against the driver seat ends before than in a gas car. The high torque at low RPMs is what makes them recover so well without shifting gears as well.

In GT, the wise thing has always seemed to be to take the the RPMs up to the RPM warning light. In your own car, in order to overtake, you must take advantage of the torque band which GRD-4-3L refers to: you must start pushing the pedal where the torque is near to its maximum, and keep it going up to the max HP point.
 
You don't feel "torque and power" in your car, but only power which is a result of torque applied over time (in a internal piston/rotary combustion engine, the number of revolutions per minute).

An "engine with high torque" will accelerate better at low rpms because it has more power at lower rpms.

The "kick in the butt" effect in TDI engines is due to the sudden increase of power at lower rpms.

Try driving a car around peak power and a second time around peak torque. You will see that it reacts and accelerates much quicker around peak power. There is not such a thing as "torque powerband". To accelerate as fast as possible you have to keep your engine as close as possible to peak power. The powerband is the range of rpms where the total sum of [peakPowerValue - currentRpmPowerValue] is as close as possible to zero. In sports cars the powerband often extends up to the rpm limit because power does not decrease much.

With a manual transmission you have to shift always over peak power. Not too much over if power decreases quickly after that rpm value. The opposite if it doesn't. What's important is that at rpms after gear shifting and at shift point, power levels have to be as close as possible to peak value.

A real life example of this: in theory, CV (continuously variable) transmissions accelerate quickly because when requesting full acceleration (usually, real CVTs are a little bit inefficient), they make the engine work at peak power only. If a car equipped with a CVT has 80 bhp of power at 6000 rpms, when flooring the accelerator it will go to 6000 rpms while the short gear ratio is slowly changed to a wide ratio. Since peak power value is 80 bhp and rpms are fixed there, the total sum of [peakPowerValue - currentRpmPowerValue] values is zero, while the acceleration is theorically the maximum achievable (transmission losses, wheel slippage, etc not counted).

I hope this will make, for the second time, the "near peak torque to max power for max acceleration" myth to fall. I also hope it's understandable, since english is not my first language.
 

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