Troubles with trail braking

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Jamie duerden, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. Jamie duerden

    Jamie duerden

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    Evening all, was just hoping someone could give me a bit of advice regarding the following please, I’m trying to get faster and after watching replay after replay, my biggest flaw is consistently good trail braking, for every good time I do it I will do it badly the next, I use a G29 and just struggle with the dead zone and travel distance of the pedal, I’m thinking of upgrading my wheel and I was going to base my purchase on what will give me the best fine control of the brake. I guess my questions are

    a) am I looking at this problem the wrong way?
    b) should I keep my g29 and just practice practice practice?
    c) upgrade and buy??
    d) should I be going down the load cell path?

    Any advice would be very much appreciated

    Cheers

    Jamie
     
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  2. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Practice.

    I 100% assure you that if you spend money on new kit you will still have the same issue to overcome.

    Its akin to trying to drive better by buying a more expensive car, you need to get to grips with the fundamentals first, and they take time. Be it heel & toe changes, threshold braking or trail braking.
     
  3. ARTAsean

    ARTAsean

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    I use a G29 and I trail brake just fine. I also believe the load cell mod specifically for the G29 is total rubbish and a waste of money. I don’t recommend it. Load cell mods work great for high end pedals with high resolution and adjustable travel and resistance, none of which apply to the G29.

    Otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree with @Scaff , you can’t throw money at this issue and make it go away. Spend 1000 laps practicing and then do 1000 more. There’s no replacement for time behind the wheel.

    I didn’t start working on my trail braking technique until GTS and it’s been a long road for me. But trail braking is such an important technique, so keep at it.
     
  4. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    I would recommend using the NIXIM V2 Brake Mod. The advantages over the stock pedal set up, or even the GTEye, is that you have a 3 stage pedal. Two stages are built into the spring, & the last is when you hit the rubber stopper. In the stock G29 pedal you have a light spring & then straight onto the really hard rubber block, so just two stages, & the GTEye is just a two stage spring as well (but firmer than the G29 spring).

    I found my braking improved ten fold when I first started using this on my G25 pedals in GT5 Prologue way back in 2009, & I haven't looked back since. I have tried many other pedal sets over the years, including the Fanatec CSR Elite with a load cell pedal, & have to say that imho & experience the NIXIM isn't that far off (it's all I ever use).
     
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  5. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

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    Practice and practice and practice some more. Its probably one of the last skills you will learn

    My advice - concentrate how it feels, yes its a process but when your doing it automatically you can feel the later braking/extra turn in/grip levels.
     
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  6. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Brakes mods are a complete waste for any travel based pedal set. Only load cells will show benefits with them.

    Since you're talking about a dead zone, I assume you have removed the stock rubber from the G29 brake. This is what gives you about 25% of deadzone, which will obviously make trail braking consistently much, much more difficult. If you want to avoid dealing with that stupidly hard braking and not end up with a huge deadzone, just trim the stock rubber slightly (about 1 or 2mm), or replace it with a 12mm long solid piece made of wood or steel. It should make your life easier. Then practice again and again, preferably on a road car with comfort tyres first.
     
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  7. Majorwolf72

    Majorwolf72

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    I want to agree with the „practice“ part. No argument here.

    Then again there’s also a hardware component to breaking. Anyone who has tried serious pedals will admit there is a huge difference.

    Load cell seems to be a love/hate tie with people who tried it or are using it. It works for me.

    WHAT hardware? Oh boy, if I go into this the holy believer war breaks out... I like what I have, others like what they have. Still: G29 may work for some even when they are advanced, most switch to other products. I liked my G29, I‘m happy I switched. Then again better gear makes the more difference the higher your skill level is.
     
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  8. Shearzy

    Shearzy

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  9. Leggacy

    Leggacy

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  10. kilesa4568

    kilesa4568

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    With enough practice, everything you do with the pedal and wheel will become intuitive. You'll soon be trail braking without thinking about it.

    Then again, the lower your skill level, the more worthless the better gear is?

    It took me a while to get used to the G29's brake (damned 'pots') but now it's second nature. Amazing what you can get used to.
     
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  11. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Sorry but that simply not true at all.

    The optional (but supplied) standard brake mod that comes with the T3PA and T3PA Pro pedals is far better than nothing or the spring based system that used to be the standard they were supplied with.

    As far as aftermarket goes I can't speak of Logitech mods, but I can with regard to the BBJ Brake Mods for the T3PA/T3PA Pro's; and they make a big difference.

    Are load cells better? Yes, but what they effectively do is rather than work on a linear input scale for travel vs force applied they translate it to a non-linear input scale, with more force on the brake pedal being required as you get more brake force at the 'pads' being applied. A good brake mod will also mimic this non-linear input effect (certainly the BBJ one does that I use), now it doesn't do as good a job as load cell, but it is a tenth of the price of a load cell mod and its a hell of a lot more that 10% as good.

    I would also add in that if we what to get really 'cork-sniffing' about this that load cells have issues of their own, in that real world brake pedals do continue to travel as force is added and the travel required reduces in a non-linear manner for input (as you past a certain point compressing the brake fluid in the system more and more), something that a good conical mod will still do, and why a load cell system still requires some kind of resistance, but a hydraulic set of brake pedals will do even better than either a plain load cell or conical mod, but these are around 10x more expensive than a set of load cell pedals.

    As such all of these mods are a sliding scale, with cost increasing massively, as the gains you get reduce, as such to dismiss a £15 mod, that does make a big difference as a 'complete waste' is both inaccurate and disingenuous.

    So to anyone around looking for help with braking, most certainly do try the 'cheaper' mods, they certainly can make a difference, and at a very low cost, so the risk involved financially is low as well.
     
  12. Jamie duerden

    Jamie duerden

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    Do I take it by having a solid piece of wood or steel of that precise length instead of the stock rubber thingy it will give you the maximum braking force and least pedal travel if for example you literally stood on the brake? Hope That makes sense
     
  13. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Yes, this will limit the travel so you don't run into the deadzone.

    That's why after the world finals, everyone suggested Polyphony to remove the brake mods, and that's why they actually removed them for the Paris World Tour. I believe all the guys who received a TGT following the world finals run no brake mod, at least those I speak to do. Same for Logitech pedals, I know iRacing top split people who ran stock G27 pedals.

    Sure, the brake mods do make a difference in terms of feeling : however it is not necessarily better, and for sure won't improve your lap times. Most of them are just stupidly hard for no reason, and will make most rigs flex under full pressure. That's why I deem them worthless, unless maybe you have a super rigid rig and think leg day is fun, I advise against brake mods. A real sports car surely never feels as ahrd as a stock G29 pedal under braking, especially when you have g forces helping you in real life.
     
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  14. Jamie duerden

    Jamie duerden

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    Yeah I get that, my driver rating was A until last week after a few too many drunk races round Tokyo, guess it might be a lifestyle question of just practicing more with my g29 or buying better gear and practicing more more and more, depends on how good/fast I actually want to try and be, mmm decisions
     
  15. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    And that constitutes everyone.......


    They improved mine, and a good number of other people I know.


    The stock mod never made my rig flex, and most mods require no more max pressure/resistance than a load cell does. The T3PA Pro stock mods allow for adjustment between 7kgs and 30kgs, if that makes you rig flex and you seriously need to look at you rig! My BBJ one is rated at around 45kgs and has never caused any flex in my rig at all.

    For reference the Fanatec one runs up to 90kg, so that argument is simply not valid at all.


    I disagree, based on experience in both fast road and race spec cars on track.

    Brake pedal pressure (to apply threshold) of between 30kgs and 60kgs are common, and F1 cars are well know for requiring in excess of 120kgs to apply full brake pressure. a stock G29 comes no where near close to that (30kgs in fact).

    "Alonso stomps on the pedal harder and generates more pressure on the system, we are talking of a pedal pressure in the 130-140kg range (+/-285-310lbs)."
    Source: http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/10/Brembo-Formula1-brakes.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  16. dabz343

    dabz343

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    Practice as people have already said, but do so with a purpose and not mindlessly.

    What helped me the most was developing the sensitivity in my left foot, and to do that, I practiced driving only with my left foot. Once I had command over my left toes, finding the trailbraking and racing line became ridiculously easy.
     
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  17. doblocruiser

    doblocruiser

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    Maybe I am going to say something very stupid now but take of your shoes and drive with thin socks!

    It really helps a lot (at least for me) to be able to fine pressure the pedals. I run a stock T150 pedal set, the plastic ones and I can pretty much get a great sense of braking with doing so.

    Otherwise called the "no-shoe-mod" ;)
     
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  18. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    I have thin soled 'sim racing slippers'.
     
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  19. Jamie duerden

    Jamie duerden

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    I’ve always played in socks but maybe they were to thick lol, have tried barefoot too but my pinkies soon got cold
     
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  20. Saidur_Ali

    Saidur_Ali

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    G29 brake pedal is terrible due the solid piece thing they put in. Even Thrustmaster T80 pedals feel better due to it. Better hardware should help or even getting some Logitech G27 pedals and using that with your wheel. A better wheel should make countersteering easier if you go down that route.
     
  21. Rexracer702

    Rexracer702

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    I also have aG29, and removed about 1-2mm from the stock rubber block. I think it helps a little. I'm better with braking now, but before the mod I would stand on the brakes (with abs) and couldn't seem to stop as fast as others. I realized that I stop more quickly with less pressure. Now that I've gotten better, I think that the mod to the rubber was not needed, since max braking happens right about where you contact the block, and almost no compression is needed. Any more travel is just dead space. My biggest problem now is feel. I get very little brake feel, so threshold braking and trail braking are tough. Different cars also react differently to trail braking, and different track surfaces. Some N class, and MR cars don't like to be trail braked because they loose traction and get sideways.

    Nothing beats more laps.
     
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  22. abrahamx

    abrahamx

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    I trail break just fine with the g29 pedals as original but that being I feel the better the tool the better the outcome. I am a trademan and I do a much better job with better tools. I suck at golf but shaved 20 strokes off my game consistantly just by buying a nice set of pings. Same with my tennis racket years ago. I went out and bought a $200 racket and my serves were instantly better with out doing anything different. My lawn mower, my work boots, I could go on and on. Like I said I love my g29 but a better tool produces better results. At least from I have experienced.
     
  23. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    From the people who drove at the world finally, nearly, yes.


    A lot of people among the fastest in the world prefer to drive without. My point still stands that it's not a necessary step to improve your lap times, and anyone could be faster with no brake mods if they actually gave it some time.

    You probably have a decent rig then. The regular playseat / raceroom / anything like that will flex though, and not by a small amount. I tried, and one sure thing is you don't want a brake mod if you have a cheap rig (unless you made yourself a solid one of course). Maybe it's just those two which were bad, but they're probably the most sold as well. Then you have people sitting on a couch or a regular chair, and trying to brake just moves the furniture, not the pedal. That's not a pleasant surprise when you have just unpacked your new wheel and you still don't have a proper cockpit.

    And yes, load cells will require a harder pedal as well. But at least it's not travel based (some race cars basically have no travel). Thing is when you throw in load cell money into your wheel setup, you generally have to cockpit to mount it on as well.


    Standard playseats will have a bit of flex even with a stock G27 pedal set. It's bearable, but with a brake mod, you can literally feel the seat tilting from the flex. I thought I was going to break the whole thing.

    It's not because someone makes it that it is necessarily good. I mean, people buy Raceland coilovers and slam their cars. They make it because there's demand, because of people misintrepreting random figures they've seen in articles (more on that below). They also offer softer options.

    It's harder than that to reach 100%. A friend has a T3PA Pro with the 30kg mod fitted and the G29 one felt harder to me. The stock G29 brake feels closer to a race clutch.

    As I already mentioned, in a real car, you have G forces multiplying your effort, and that's why making the force required on a static rig the same as in a real car is not good. A F1 car already generates more than 1G longitudinal just when you're off the gaz from aero drag (which is basically any car on road tyres applying full brakes). Current F1s generate 5 to 6Gs under full braking. Which means under braking, your effort to maintain that pressure is multiplied. I have no issues braking in track dedicated machines in real life without thinking about it, so seeing a piece of rubber preventing me from reaching 100% with what seems a normal pressure to me is weird.

    This is from 2012, now they have brake by wire on the rear, so definitely less hydraulic pressure. Drivers complained about how the brakes felt, I guess they might have modified the pumps to increase the required effort back after this.


    So yeah, I'm keeping my opinion that brake mods are unnecessary to go fast, especially if you're on a budget and don't have a fully fledged cockpit.
     
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  24. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    That constitutes everyone that uses a wheel?



    That wasn't the point you made at all.

    The point you made was "Brakes mods are a complete waste for any travel based pedal set. Only load cells will show benefits with them.", and that's quite simply not true.


    I have a Playseat Challenge, however its also a moot point as.......


    .....that's the sound of you moving the goalposts.



    Mine doesn't and its a Playseat.

    Quite an assertions to make, you might want to check what peoples backgrounds are before throwing such things around.


    You don;t need to reach 100% of pedal travel, that why pedal calibrate for a title the first time you depress them within the title.


    It is indeed, to a degree, but not to the factor your implying it is, nor does that provide an argument for removing almost every bit of resistance from a sim rigs pedal travel (which would invalidate your own argument in favour of load cells as well).

    But your OK with a load cell doing the exact same thing? Or when you change from car to car, given that no two cars (even of the exact same model) will require the same pressure at the exact same point?

    Which is exactly what they did (and your also ignoring the fact that plenty of other race spec cars run brake pressures at the 60 to 80kgs range), because not only does it feel un-natural but it also makes it far harder to modulate the brake pressure. Memorizing a set position on a pedal range is significantly harder than building up muscle memory to do the exact same thing on a hydraulic, load or resistive system.

    No one said they were necessary (go back and actually re-read my initial reply to the thread - as I certainly didn't), I simply disagreed with your blanket statement that "Brakes mods are a complete waste for any travel based pedal set. Only load cells will show benefits with them.".

    Which is an odd thing to say as just about every issue you have raised with brake mods applies to load cells as well, and you have ignored the fact that a good brake mod will give 80% of the advantages of a load cell for around 10% of the cost, which also removes the "on a budget" argument as well.

    Lets be honest brake mods (like all things) come in good and bad versions. The stock G29 one (which is arguable not a mod - as its the stock item) or the T3PA Pro spring one certainly are not great ones, the BBJ and NIXIM ones however do offer a significant amount of the advantages of a load cell for a fraction of the price.
     
  25. Pigems

    Pigems

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    Yup, it’s the driver not the gear. I was just as fast with my DFGT/DriveHub as I am with my new wheel, the new one is just nicer to use. I can’t use those brake mods though, I prefer travel with the brake, probably from using the DFGT for so long. :)
     
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