Trying to drive without ABS...

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Hey everyone. Last night I decided it was about time to turn of my last driving aid in F1 2011, the ABS.

I surprised myself and did OK, so when I went on GT5 today, I fort I should turn ABS off on here as well... But it's much, much, MUCH harder for me on GT5.

I guess my question is should I bother with the seemingly huge learning curve trying to drive without ABS on GT5, or is keeping it on 1 acceptable? And if I do carry on trying to learn, does anyone have any tips to make it a little easier?

Thanks for any help, I would really like to get better at sim racing in general, and I think learning to break properly is the thing giving me the most trouble overall.
 
its a bit more difficult in GT. F1 2011 isnt all that great. With the correct brake bias you should be able to brake in GT5 just fine without abs. (check out tuning threads)

the braking system in GT isnt very realistic. braking at 30% gives you the same braking power as 50 to 75%. You should never brake over 80% without abs, and always brake when the cars travelling in a straight line. i follow these guidelines myself and never really have any probs, unless i panic brake and floor it.
 
Thanks to everyone for the help. Checking out that thread and some set ups now =D and thanks StormBringer for the info about how sensitive the brakes really are! Knowing that has made me a lot better right away. At least i can get around the track again now :)
 
The learning curve isn't as huge for everyone, it's more about starting off gradually. I've been getting my little brother into GT5 and I thought I would try getting him to run with ABS off (in addition to all other driving aids being off, which he hasn't had much problem with). He wanted to give my Aventador a go, but I had him start with a mildly tuned Cooper S '07 on Sport Medium tires at Rome. He locked them up big time on his first try around the 75° right-hander but that showed him what will happen when you're not careful. I stepped him up to a stock DB9, again on Sport Medium tires at Rome, and he used what he'd learned in the Mini. The success he was having ended when I stepped him up yet again, this time to the baby Lamborghini (Gallardo), as he was locking the brakes consistently around all but the sweeping esses around the short city course. It was at this time that he'd had enough, after all, he's just eleven.
 
This is something I have struggled with ill have to go look at that other thread see if there is anything I can change.
 
It's been suggested to me that if I turn abs off I should change the brake balance to 1/0 . I've tried this and the back end of my cars still want to slide out when braking. I'm thinking some suspension tweeks are needed but I'm gradually trying to wean myself off of driving aids....
 
I always have everything off except ABS. If im wanting to have fun or if I'm driving a Viper or old car or anything that doesn't have ABS irl i have it turned off.
 
DA__dogg
It's been suggested to me that if I turn abs off I should change the brake balance to 1/0 . I've tried this and the back end of my cars still want to slide out when braking. I'm thinking some suspension tweeks are needed but I'm gradually trying to wean myself off of driving aids....
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That should be down to just learning how much brake to use when turning into the corner(hint: VERY little). Often times having the front brake 1 step higher than the rear is not enough, maybe if you try 3/0 or 4/0 it might work better for you. When you're not used to it, it is best to err on the side of understeer, and focus more on stopping earlier so that you can do as much braking as possible while going straight.

Like stormbringer said, don't expect to ever use full braking force.

With the rear brakes at 0 it shouldn't be too bad(except the car won't stop at 1/0 :) ), but it has a lot to do with knowing what you can and can't get away with. It also can vary a lot by car.
 
If you want a gradual learning curve, start out on a GT500 car with RS tires and then as you get the hang of it, switch to RM and then RH tires. Then try another car with less downforce (really helps with the braking) perhaps an RM and do the same routine, or skip a step here or there if you feel comfortable. Over a couple of evenings work your way down to the types of cars on the types of tires that you like to drive. Along the way you'll have to adjust the brake balances downward. I think I remember in a GT500 car stuff like 4/2 would work but I can't get that to work on a streeet car on CS tires.

It's intimidating trying to start out on CS tires but a little easier if you start out on cars with more grip and downforce.

Remember too, zero brake balance does not equal zero brakes, just very low brakes. Even at 0/0 cars will still have some brake force.
 
stormbringer
the braking system in GT isnt very realistic. braking at 30% gives you the same braking power as 50 to 75%. You should never brake over 80% without abs, and always brake when the cars travelling in a straight line. i follow these guidelines myself and never really have any probs, unless i panic brake and floor it.
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Not true. You should never brake at 100% for very long, but it is possible to when travelling very fast into a braking zone. For example Mulsanne corner. 👍
 
FordMKIVJ5
Not true. You should never brake at 100% for very long, but it is possible to when travelling very fast into a braking zone. For example Mulsanne corner. 👍
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I disagree. 100% braking without abs is just asking for the wheels to lock up.
It might be possible, as you say, but it isnt useful. just risky.

The only time id 100% brake is when i want to force the car into a drift, and even then, just for a millisecond.
 
If you want to learn ABS free racing then it wouldn't be a bad idea to use an evo or wrx on nurburgring in the rain on comfort mediums with brake balance set to 2/0 or 3/0.
A few laps there will learn ya.
 
stormbringer
I disagree. 100% braking without abs is just asking for the wheels to lock up.
It might be possible, as you say, but it isnt useful. just risky.

The only time id 100% brake is when i want to force the car into a drift, and even then, just for a millisecond.
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Depends on brake bias I think... I will usually run with a 4/2 or 3/1 bias when ABS is OFF and I can brake 100% for a decent part of each braking zone as long as it's in a straight line. I'm sure it's a bit faster to run higher bias and take full advantage of the traction available, but it's not often I run without ABS and I don't love the brake feel on my DFGT wheel (which is why I usually just keep ABS on)... note I still have to back off when braking down to lower speeds or in anything other than a straight line.
 
stormbringer
I disagree. 100% braking without abs is just asking for the wheels to lock up.
It might be possible, as you say, but it isnt useful. just risky.

The only time id 100% brake is when i want to force the car into a drift, and even then, just for a millisecond.
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It depends. For instance, flying down towards Mulsanne corner you can hold 100% for a second or so before you should start easing off- the faster you go the less likely you are to lock up.

Sure, If you're turning in the braking zone, the car's going to go sideways. This is for straight line braking. 👍

It also depends heavily on the car you're using and you're brake bias as to how often you can.
 
Okay fellas, I would like to give a go at explaining this GT5 NO ABS BRAKING.

I use a G25, have not been using ABS since GT4.

You can think of the brake pedal on the wheel sets as the SQUARE button(default brake button).

Brake pedal travel = the amount of space that is between the the DS3 button before hitting 100%

Now we have that cleared up,

Try to think of the brake balance setting as a sensitivity setting in a way.

Examples:

ABS off 0-0 balance means that when you press button/pedal to 100%, they are actually doing 100% brake power. front and rear.

ABS off 5-5 balance means that when you press button/pedal to 50%, they are actually doing 100% brake power. front and rear.

ABS off 10-10 balance means that when you press button/pedal to 1%, they are actually doing 100% brake power. front and rear.

So if you are looking to use all of the 100% of travel that is on the brake pedal and the button, they 0-0 balance is ideal.

At this point, adjusting the brake balance even by 1 WILL change the overall braking characteristics of the car.

example setups:
0-0 on all of the cars (default).

0-1 FF car for left foot braking on tight courses.

1-0 most LM protos.

1-0 high powered monsters(Mclaren F1)

SOMETIMES I will run 2-1 or 2-0 if the track/car/situation is favorable.

And as always, everyone is different, so these numbers could vary depending on the individual/car/weather/track/situation etc. But I do recommend starting with 0-0, and then adjust accordingly.
 
Interesting theory Jdm-Integra. A good perspective to look from, thanks.

I have been racing ABS off for the past few months for the most part, mostly since the patch that introduced the option to lock abs off for online racing.

I believe it comes down to car and track combination.

Currently I race in the BFGracing.com SuperGT league where all aids are not allowed. I for most of the season have run with a setting of 4 on front and 2 on rear, or 4/2. I have on some tracks run with 6/3 settings, sometimes 5/2. It depends on the track and conditions of the tires.

As our races run over 1hour and 30minutes, the grip levels change with the tires as does the weight of the car with fuel. If I left my brakes at 5/2, then they start to snatch and lock up into some corners, so I begin to reduce brake bias, often going from a 5/2 to a 4/2 or 4/1, and sometimes down to a 3/1 setting before the pit stop. After pit stop I adjust it back up to how I had it.

If I find my tires wearing unevenly, say the rears going off faster than the fronts, then I can reduce the rear brake bias or up the front to even out the wear a little. It can be a constant adjustment, especially on bumpy tracks where the tires can leave the ground for a little time causing a lock up.

This is all just for a SuperGT car (Takata Dome NSX '06 model). Where a lot of road/supercars I use can't run a brake bias that high. In contrast, I have run a GroupC car, the Jaguar XJR9 '88, with a brake bias of 7/5, on Comfort Hard tires around Nurburgring (video link below if your interested, please ignore first corner :D ) because the lower settings, which I began with, didn't allow the car to pull up fast enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEy1oQtuimQ&list=UUuz5jGdEdumBOWkidkOJoeQ&index=1&feature=plcp
 
^^ Wow niceone JDM, im using g25 and have been avoiding abs like the plague and had even thought about 'perfect brake pedal' mod until I saw the price and DIY effort required....

Gonna have a play with the balance setting tonight 8-)
 
Lion-Face
*Great perspective*
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This. 👍


@OP

When you get to the point where you are comfortable not running ABS (I can't drive with ABS now- the car doesn't feel right) you can run with guys using ABS. I haven't run ABS since September (?) and have competed in 2 online series, 1 of which I won. 👍
 
Lion-Face
Currently I race in the BFGracing.com SuperGT league where all aids are not allowed.
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It's nice to hear there actually exist SuperGT leagues that ban ABS, I've been trying to find one from GTP and so far no luck. I raced at WSGTC last season and it was brilliant apart from ABS, I just don't like the way it distorts the physics when you're braking.

Also brilliant that you adjust the balance on the fly, that's what real racers do all the time too. In WSGTC with ABS I was just going with 6/3 all season as I didn't notice any problems with uneven tyre wear (running an NSX aswell, the ARTA).
 
Awesome JDM I have to try that, always assumed I would be something BELOW full braking power (not utilizing all available traction) if bias was too low (i.e. 0/0), if it's really just pedal travel to 100% that totally changes the approach.
 
sunnbeta
Awesome JDM I have to try that, always assumed I would be something BELOW full braking power (not utilizing all available traction) if bias was too low (i.e. 0/0), if it's really just pedal travel to 100% that totally changes the approach.
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But remember, When ABS is off, sensitivity to wheel lock(front tires) is increased during corners that require turning + braking. So Brake hard when you have the chance on the straight, and ease off brakes and ease onto the throttle thru the corner from entry to exit.

Corner entry speed/style is such a crucial part of learning how to drive w/o ABS.
Just remember to never 100% brake while front wheels are turned, that will result in guaranteed wheel lock, especially at higher speeds. :scared:

However, there are times, where the going get tough and the opponent has you on the outside, but you just don't want to give in since its the last lap of the race. So you carry more speed to the corner entry, and brake harder and let off later, then it happens, right before the apex, you see the awful understeer creeping so more brakes is required.

At this point MANUAL ABS WILL BE NEEDED.

http://www.driftingstreet.com/braking-technique-locking.html

Found this just now, I think it explains much better than I can.

Also, if times allows, one should look into the art of trail braking. Combined with no abs, this combo can be an effective weapon on the track.
 
Trail braking with no ABS in GT5 is very difficult though as generally you just smoke the inside wheel. :indiff:

It can be done, it's just tricky to get it mastered. :)
 
I'd rather scrub the inside tire under trail braking to gain/retain position, than scrubbing my front bumper from the wall.
 
stormbringer
I disagree. 100% braking without abs is just asking for the wheels to lock up.
It might be possible, as you say, but it isnt useful. just risky.

The only time id 100% brake is when i want to force the car into a drift, and even then, just for a millisecond.
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Braking at 100% for a short period is still acceptable if you are going at 175+ mph or so. Sometimes I would find myself stabbing the brakes to the floor for like a second or two before easing off to like 80%-90% threshold when coming down from a long straight at max speed. If you think about it, I believe the reason for this is because it takes time for your brake calipers/pads to travel and secure a firm grip before they start to take effect as they clamp down on your brake discs, especially when they are spinning so fast at higher speeds.

You can also think of it this way. If you have an office chair that can spin, try sitting down on it and spin yourself as fast as you can. Then try stopping yourself from spinning with your feet as if they were brakes themselves. Notice how much longer/shorter it takes to slow down depending on how fast you are spinning because of friction.

P.S. I'm not responsible for cause of injury or symptoms of severe dizziness for those that attempt this stunt. So don't come to me if you fly off your chair with puke flinging off your mouth in all directions lol jk! This works best with socks on because bare feet alone will be too grippy, well unless you have really sweaty feet haha
 
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I started a thread a little while ago about this, when I first tried driving without ABS as well. So I'm still new to this ABS-less driving thing. However, I can share my opinion as a newbie driver (as far as ABS-less driving goes anyway).

First, you'll want to do what others have already said: adjust the brake balance. I fidn that a 4/2 F/R Brake Balance works on most cars, ranging from my light tuned 1991 RX-7 to my stock Viper ACR. The reason why you would want to put the brake bias towards the front tyres is because as you brake, the weight of the car shifts towards the front, giving the front tyres more pressing force against the road and hence more grip. This of course means your front and rear tyres have different levels of grip, and if you could only have one braking input and one braking force on all four wheels, you would either use all the grip the front tyres have and consequently lock the rear wheels, or you brake at the limit of the rear wheels' grip and waste the front wheel's gripping potential.

Now, a car without ABS stops better than a car with ABS. This causes more gs to be induced when you brake at the car's full potential. Hence, if you're not driving the car stock, you ought to stiffen the front suspension to cope with this. I don't recall my exact figures and I will check and update if anyone deems it necessary, but my light tuned 1991 RX-7 has 12.x kgf/mm springs on the front, with dampers somewhere around 8. I run it on Sports Medium tyres.

This is the part that will really need getting used to, however. For more sensitivity, I forced myself to switch from the face buttons to the L2 and R3 triggers for brakes and accelerator respectively. They still don't provide the sensitivity that I'd like (I've found that the input just spikes from half to full throttle at a certain point when you increase the input just a little). But it's certainly better than the face buttons.

Lastly, as someone pointed out in my thread, ABS has a sort of integrated driving assist, which transform the brake button/ pedal into an instant "save me, game!" button. Without ABS your car will behave a little differently than you would expect with ABS. Try to keep this in mind when you first drive without ABS and don't push it as you would with ABS on. Personally, I dislike driving aids and "electronic nannies" in my car, and I really appreciate that I can drive without ABS, thanks in no small part to the people that have helped me, and even offered to hold online practice sessions for me. You should look up a GTPlanet user by the name of "Ridox2JZGTE". He's the one who has been very helpful to me in my endeavour to drive without ABS.

Also, as I've said, I'm still new to driving without ABS. And thus, I only drive very specific cars without them, like my light tuned RX-7, light tuned S2000, and my stock RX-7 Spirit R. I've tried driving the stock Viper ACR without ABS with the brake bias 4/2, but it's... really hard to not crash. It behaves very differently without ABS, I've found. Once the tyres lock, you've had it. I haven't tried it nor do I plan to, but I hear the R35 GT-R is undriveable without ABS as well.
 
^All 4WD are difficult to drive without ABS due to the fact that any amount of turning while braking sends the car sideways for some reason. However, if you work out how you can use this to your advantage you can really get cracking. 👍
 

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