Tuning for PP levels instead of max for car

  • Thread starter Thread starter madmyk
  • 12 comments
  • 3,425 views
madmyk

madmyk

Messages
577
United States
Oregon
Messages
madmyk
I have been following this forum for some time now. I have learned a lot here about tuning and am getting pretty decent at it finally.

I have found that I do not like to tune cars to their max hp and lowest weight. I like to tune to specific PP levels that are common online. This means I have to adapt tunes that I find at the garages here to my purposes and it leads to some interesting challenges.

If I want to tune a car that is 400-450pp initially to 500pp, then I have to do two things very carefully: choose which mods are best to get to 500pp, and then tune specifically to the power and weight I end up with.

I have found that I don't always choose the right mods and I do not find much support for that kind of decision making here. Also, I have to adapt the tunes here to having less power, and sometimes more weight and less downforce than the tuners used.

This is mostly fine with me since I actually have to learn to tune and not just copy from the forum but I wonder how people here feel about this. I think it would be cool to see tunes created for a specific PP level with the choice of mods, and optimized settings for that level.

Let me know what you guys think. I can provide more examples and such later. Cheers.
 
I think this is what it should be like then you have a purpose for the car you are tuning. I will try and tune a car to 450pp or 425 or 500 or something like that but i havent really seen anyone else do this. On Forzamotorsport 3 this is how they all tune cars, up to the highest PI of their class. I would like to see more people tuning like this and i can agree with pretty much everything you just said.

Edit: Apart from the copying bit hehe, but who can stop you from copying their settings.
 
Jackthalad
I think this is what it should be like then you have a purpose for the car you are tuning. I will try and tune a car to 450pp or 425 or 500 or something like that but i havent really seen anyone else do this. On Forzamotorsport 3 this is how they all tune cars, up to the highest PI of their class. I would like to see more people tuning like this and i can agree with pretty much everything you just said.

Edit: Apart from the copying bit hehe, but who can stop you from copying their settings.
Click to expand...

In my garage you can see the PP on the car list, don't need to open the link to know the PP.
I have 1 400 to 450 pp
2 -450 to 500 pp
6 -500 to 550 pp
You are right it's not enough and i think to do some more, including japanese vintage cars.

You can always adapt the power limiter of your car to enter in a race online when you don't have the exactly adapted car, till you have the one you want.
 
I've done quite a bit of PP racing and I'd say my tuning skills are about a B+. The first thing you have to be aware of with PP racing is that not all cars are created equal. Some will be fast out of the box, some can be tuned quick, and others are just plain slow no matter what you do. Don't kill yourself trying to chase down a car that has simply out classed you.

Here are some tips that I have mentioned before...

1) Make sure you have the right tires. It's a no-brainer but some people surprisingly don't get it. If there are no tire limits in a room, you will need RS tires to compete. Pay attention to changes between races too. Some bad hosts like to sneak in last minute tire changes to get an edge on the competition.

2) Make sure you can race without any aids (except abs=1). They typically slow you down and many lobby hosts disable them anyway.

3) Install and tune the transmission for every track during practice. For tight tracks, you'll want to come close to redline in your highest gear at the end of the longest straight. For open tracks, make sure the top gear is tall enough for drafting. Custom gear ratios might give you an edge, but unless you have already worked them out, tinkering with the top speed setting is fast and easy.

3) Overmodding rarely works. If you have to install every mod to reach a PP level, chances are, you won't be competitive. Older and more pedestrian cars typically have narrower tires so when given the same compound they can't corner at the same speeds as newer sportier cars that have a base PP closer to your target value.

3) Undermodding occasionally works, but it depends on the track. A rule of thumb I use is to never use more than 10-20% power reduction. If you have to use more to get the car down to the right pp level, you won't have enough power on the straights.

4) Make the most of power reduction. I mentioned using no more than 10-20%. Even if your car is perfect for the PP level, you should always install one extra part and use at least 3-5% power reduction to make sure you have exactly the right amount of power.

5) Minimize downforce. For low PP levels you don't need a rear wing. Every point you put toward downforce is a point away from power. Even if it gives you a little more speed in the corners, the other drivers will blow by you on the straights.

6) Ballast can be a good alternative to downforce. It goes without saying that a heavier car is allowed more power. Adding a few kgs of ballast to the rear of the car instead of a rear wing will give you the balance you need without sacrificing power. In fact adding ballast will allow you to add more power!

7) Tune the suspension online for even tread wear. Offline tunes are usually garbage in an online lobby. You need to spend time online tuning and pay attention to how the tires wear. If the fronts wear faster than the rears, your car will start to understeer as the laps go by giving you less grip to make that late race pass.

8) Selection of mods is probably the least important of all, but it still requires consideration. Full weight reduction on a car or full engine tuning on a car doesn't help as much as some of the cheaper bolt ons like an air filter or catalytic converter. You want the ideal power curve so install mods that help with the engine's weaknesses. Don't just look at peak power, look at the rpms you get that power at.
 
I actually have a section in my tuning shop that deals with 450PP tunes. I find it fun to tune cars to a certain PP instead of maxing them out, they generally keep their personalities while gaining speed. For 450 I go for a target weight, around 1200KG and then tune for power after that. I don't really use the power limiter, as few cars have a small enough power band, along with the extra power to limit, to really get a lot of use out of it.
 
Thanks for the responses, especially Chuyler for all the details around the 450pp range. I have raced with you a little but usually get online too late. I have seen some of your posts in this area but this is a great summary so thanks again.

This addresses part of what I was getting at - to tune for a PP level you need to be careful about which mods you apply - and whether or not to do weight reduction is a big decision.

I was playing around with a TVR Tamora recently and I tried the RKM tune for it. I wasn't super happy with it but then I realized we had not done the same mods. RKM did a level 3 weight reduction and no HP upgrades where I only did a level 1 weight and some minor HP upgrades. Was the tune bad? Probably not, but it did not work for me.

The other way to look at this is - what is the best tune for this pp level (I think RKM would come in around 520-525pp but it wasn't posted)? Chuyler probably would not have done any weight reduction, I did level 1 and some HP, and RKM did all weight reduction. However you do it, the suspension and LSD settings should not be the same across the three mod approaches. I think this might be a better way to do a tuning comparison - tune to lower than maximum, and state the pp level you are tuning to.
 
Another aspect of this is my reasoning for not tuning my cars to the max. At the high end of the spectrum, I cannot drive road cars very well when they are over 800 hp or whatever, probably anything over 625 pp. I'm just not that good and I don't enjoy trying without some aids.

I noticed a lot of frustration in the last tuning challenge to get the McLaren MP4 under control. It would not even have occurred to me to do all HP and weight mods on that car. I just picked up one recently from a ticket and I'm hoping it is manageable at 600pp. I would to see tunes for that level to try out. Maybe a lot of the suspension settings from the tuning challenge could apply, but probably not the gears and the LSD.
 
Regarding weight reduction, I think there is an optimum weight for each class. At 450pp it seems to be between 1000kg and 1300kg for most tracks. You'll benefit from a heavier car with more power/torque on a track like Road Course Daytona (provided you don't fall too far behind in the infield) while you'll do better in a lighter car on a track like Nurburgring. However, I still think going overboard with either power or weight reduction is not going to produce a competitive car.
 
On HP/Torque, one thing I have noticed is that if you are already at the PP limit and you add a HP mod (e.g., sports exhaust), that will bump your HP, torque and redline higher. Then you have to use the power limiter to dial back the HP. By the time you meet the PP, your HP will be lower then before (not a lot), but your torque and redline will be higher.

Performance wise, I am not sure if there is any meaningful gain, but it can be good to know for adjustment on a high or low torque engine.
 
Absolutely! I covered that in item (4) above. Making the most out of power reduction. Lets say you have 350hp @ 6000 rpm and you are at exactly 450pp. Install an exhaust and you're at 460pp. Drop the power back down with some performance reduction. Now you are at 345hp @ 5500 rpm. Less power, but you get it earlier AND you have 345hp from 5500rpm all the way to 6500 rpm. You will also have more torque. The wider power band will give you better acceleration through the entire gear. This techique works in moderation. Going extreme, like taking a 500pp car and cutting power to give you 300hp from 4000 rpm to redline may turn out to be a little sluggish.
 
Chuyler, good point about having power earlier. I have been using as little power reduction as possible, but will try 5% or 10% reduction. I find that as I reduce the power, the gear ratio needs to be adjusted too.

One caveat: the power reduction route is not that great for low RPM/high torque engines like Vettes or Vipers. I once ended up having tractor like power curve, with much more torque than HP...
 
Yeah, with those big V8s you have more luck just shifting early instead of trying to optimize high rpm power.
 
This issue is why I have so many versions of the same car.

For example, I have 3 Corvette Z06s and 2 Z06 RMs. I have 5 R32s and I have 3 370z cars too.

Many more examples of duplicates purchased on purpose, so I can tune them to different PP levels.

I really like the 550PP races. I obviously have the NSX, but I wanted other competitive cars too. I don't like simply adjusting HP downwards because it's not the same thing as building the car to a performance goal. So, I built several cars to compete in this bracket. Some are set up for Racing Soft, but most are configured for Sports Soft tires.

I also enjoyed the Classic Muscle Seasonal and set up several cars to compete. Keeping the original transmission was a must for me, and I targeted 500PP. These cars are fun to drive with a few self-imposed restrictions.
 
Back