Tuning Help - Tail Happy Cars

[Swinkel]

Hi Everyone.

I enjoy driving all the different cars in GT from stock cars to tuned race cars. Cars that are out of balance give me trouble though. Cars such as Elise, Evora, Huayra, R8 Ultra and other cars where the weight is out of balance towards the rear. Mostly around 45%/55%. Maybe it's a lack of my driving skills but I do believe tuning could help a lot.

First of all I admit I'm terrible at tuning cars! That's why I'm asking help. I tried moving up the rear heigh 10 mm, make the spring rate harder at the rear than at the front, toyed around with dampers.

Do you awesome guys have some general tips how to make these tail happy cars more stable? I'm not asking for specific rates/tunes but more suggestions to point me to the right direction, e.g. make the rear spring rate harder in comparison with the front. I prefer not to add ballast.

I know I can search for specific car tunes and simply try them out but I prefer to know what I am doing at least a little bit. I have solved pretty much the breaking imbalance.

In GT5 I simply avoided these cars but now I decided to reach out and ask for help instead

Thank you if you have any suggestions.

 

[demonchilde]

I know you prefer not to add ballast, but dont completely dismiss it.
if adding 30-50kg in a direction is going to make your car handle better and cut your lap times down by 5-10 seconds, lol, then its safe to say the ballast is a positive thing.

All cars have a sweet spot. Depending on many things, some cars run awesome at 950kg, while others run like crap under 1250kg. Almost NEVER does the sweet spot come stock.

 

[Swinkel]

Thanks very much demonchilde. I'm not dismissing extra ballast completely but just thought it would be a shame if the only option to make it drivable is to make it heavier. I had no idea about the sweet spot though with regard to car weights

 

[eclipsee]

If you make harder your rear spring rate you'll add oversteering, just make the opposite, softening the rear spring rate will neutralice (to a point) the oversteering, increase the front spring rate to induce understeering, that will help too.

 

[demonchilde]

One thing, on the subject of weight anyway, is consider your power. If your working with under 500hp, then yeah, I would do everything possible to correct the car without adding weight first.
but if your working something with over 500hp, then any fluctuation between 1000kg and say 1350kg, isnt going to hurt at all.
Think of the average Mercedes Benz. Weighing in between 1700kg and 2100kg. And the hp on them between 350-550hp stock. If a 400ish hp engine can throw around a benzo with style, it sure isnt going to hurt you around 1200kg.
I actually found more sweet spots around 1190kg, then any other weight. Too light will make a car be easy to throw around.
On top of that, 99% of the time, it usually only takes like 20-40kg of ballast to bring a car close to centered. Most cars I have tuned, dont like 50/50 anyway. Most of the FR and MR cars like a tiny bit more on the drive tires. (49/51 or 48/52). Same for RR, and such. But theres a few that do like 50/50.

 

[Mike Rotch]

Some very good points above; my 2c:

- Remove the default toe setting on the rear which I think is .20 toe-in. This usually helps rotate the car in a corner, but makes a rear-bias MR even more likely to switch ends.
- As has been said, soften the rear springs to mitigate the oversteer. This won't always cure it, but will move the overall settings package back to a more neutral state.
- Ballast; again, as has been said, 40-60kgs can make a 40/60 car something like 45/55 or a 45/55 more like 48/52. A car doesn't need to be 50/50 to handle well, I think I found the sweet spot for the 111R at 48/52 for example.
- Add a rear wing. I hate rear wings as they look stupid, but the added downforce will help somewhat and it wont cost PP.

 

[psball]

If simulation is to compare somewhat to reality, these cars are unrealistic compared to previous versions of GT. I can't believe you'd pay big money for a high end car (such as; Nissan GT-R 07 or Audi R8) and have it handle as badly as these cars in GT6?

 

[Swinkel]

@eclipsee Thanks for pointing this out. A rookie mistake I guess

@demonchilde Thanks again for your thorough explanation. I like both over 500 hp cars and less than 500 hp like the small Lotus cars so I will keep the difference in mind when trying out my luck. I like your info about a bit more weight on the driving tires.

I'm also going though some tuning garages and am happy to see some don't mind explaining a bit at what they are doing. I'm sure my next attempt together with your tips will go a lot better.

 

[psball]

No one should have to go through so much tedious tweeking to get a car to go around a track in a simulation game!

 

[Swinkel]

@Mike thanks for your 2 cents. I don't like big wings on regular cars either and usually avoid it. But if I need performance I put the ugly thing there anyway On race cars it looks cool though.

@psball Not sure how realistic GT is and also doubt these cars would drive this bad for that amount of money in real life.. (I dont have enough money to be able to confirm this lol) but in my point of view tedious tweakings should be part of a 'simulation' game. I would agree with that no one should go through much tweaking in an arcade game.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Hi Everyone.

I enjoy driving all the different cars in GT from stock cars to tuned race cars. Cars that are out of balance give me trouble though. Cars such as Elise, Evora, Huayra, R8 Ultra and other cars where the weight is out of balance towards the rear. Mostly around 45%/55%. Maybe it's a lack of my driving skills but I do believe tuning could help a lot.

First of all I admit I'm terrible at tuning cars! That's why I'm asking help. I tried moving up the rear heigh 10 mm, make the spring rate harder at the rear than at the front, toyed around with dampers.

Do you awesome guys have some general tips how to make these tail happy cars more stable? I'm not asking for specific rates/tunes but more suggestions to point me to the right direction, e.g. make the rear spring rate harder in comparison with the front. I prefer not to add ballast.

I know I can search for specific car tunes and simply try them out but I prefer to know what I am doing at least a little bit. I have solved pretty much the breaking imbalance.

In GT5 I simply avoided these cars but now I decided to reach out and ask for help instead

Thank you if you have any suggestions.

Pay a visit at my replica garage, I have some wild beast tamed , I recently updated my R8 LMS Ultra Phoenix ( only tweaked LSD + suspension ), my approach is different than most tuners here both in suspension and LSD ( I also never use any aids ), if you try my tune you will know As for ballast, it's always last resort for me, unless I wanted to fix the weight distribution because PD made a mistake ( Supra RZ for example ). If you need any help with specific cars you can leave a request at my garage and we can discuss further there.


For oversteering car, LSD can definitely help. I adapted real life LSD into GT6, and so far it works great on my replicas and tunes. For MR cars with instability ( oversteer ), I would recommend increase LSD initial torque ( preload ) - I calculated based on engine torque, tire grip level and track characteristics.
Here is a simple trick - for easy to manage LSD, increase initial to half ( 30 ) or more ( I often use max value first or my own calculation ), increase accel and brake to 36 or more. Drive the car at tracks like Apricot Hill, Bathurst and Brands Hatch GP, use lower grip tire like comfort soft ( street car ) or sports tire ( race car ), notice how understeer usually creeps up earlier when coasting, braking or accelerating out of corner. Higher initial gives less difference in car behavior when near the limit as LSD locking occurs at later stage, but it may give sudden drastic changes when activated, especially with high accel and brake. When you can drive and establish how the car behave in general with the high initial LSD, keep reducing initial by 1 or 2 value, and drive it again. You will notice changes in handling, car becomes looser instead of tight, LSD locking kicks in earlier than before, find the sweet spot that you really like - gives stability but not too tight.

Once that done, now aim to stabilize locking rate under throttle ( accel ), reduce/increase the value until the outside tire spins almost at the same time as the inside tire, use the Willow Springs Big, the second corner ( right curve ) is a great spot to test this. Once that done, reduce/increase braking to stabilize the car under braking or coasting. The R8 Ultra Phoenix for example, needs high braking to make it stable and reduce lift off oversteer and sweet spot for initial torque using racing hard tire is also pretty high ( more than 20 ) - not understeery but still tight/stable. The R8 also runs well with high accel value, I found a good value that allows controllable oversteer, and as the car has high initial torque, such oversteer due to LSD lock rarely happen. With suspension and LSD, a 528HP, 599PP, stock gearing + aero, R8 LMS Ultra Phoenix can lap Bathurst in 2:05s, Brands Hatch GP in 1:22s - comparable to other GT3 cars with oil change 600+PP.

Check out my Knight Sports RX7 Special Edition, it has 402PS on comfort soft, able to easily post 1:03 flat at Tsukuba - replicating the real car performance. It has adapted real life LSD that help gives the car unique handling. One tuner has given good review on the car ( Blueshift )

 

[psball]

Thanks very much!

 

[Swinkel]

I have never looked into LSD settings. I was already confused with the regular settings so didnt want to increase my confusion by changing even more variables. Thank you for your detailed explanation Ridox.

Yesterday I bought the Audi R8 Ultra and was not very happy with its handling to say the least. I will check out your tune and see if it's fool-proof... with me being the fool

@psball Thanks for your great reaction

 

[BlueShift]

(...)
Here is a simple trick - for easy to manage LSD, increase initial to half ( 30 ) or more ( I often use max value first or my own calculation ), increase accel and brake to 36 or more. Drive the car at tracks like Apricot Hill, Bathurst and Brands Hatch GP, use lower grip tire like comfort soft ( street car ) or sports tire ( race car ), notice how understeer usually creeps up earlier when coasting, braking or accelerating out of corner. Higher initial gives less difference in car behavior when near the limit as LSD locking occurs at later stage, but it may give sudden drastic changes when activated, especially with high accel and brake. When you can drive and establish how the car behave in general with the high initial LSD, keep reducing initial by 1 or 2 value, and drive it again. You will notice changes in handling, car becomes looser instead of tight, LSD locking kicks in earlier than before, find the sweet spot that you really like - gives stability but not too tight.

Once that done, now aim to stabilize locking rate under throttle ( accel ), reduce/increase the value until the outside tire spins almost at the same time as the inside tire, use the Willow Springs Big, the second corner ( right curve ) is a great spot to test this. Once that done, reduce/increase braking to stabilize the car under braking or coasting. The R8 Ultra Phoenix for example, needs high braking to make it stable and reduce lift off oversteer and sweet spot for initial torque using racing hard tire is also pretty high ( more than 20 ) - not understeery but still tight/stable. The R8 also runs well with high accel value, I found a good value that allows controllable oversteer, and as the car has high initial torque, such oversteer due to LSD lock rarely happen. With suspension and LSD, a 528HP, 599PP, stock gearing + aero, R8 LMS Ultra Phoenix can lap Bathurst in 2:05s, Brands Hatch GP in 1:22s - comparable to other GT3 cars with oil change 600+PP.

(...)

One tuner has given good review on the car ( Blueshift )

Yup, but your LSD setting method is not really how I tune a LSD...
There's two method, the one you use, and the more conventional method but a lot more complicated to do, with low initial, that also give good results.

Check out my 500pp C3 Corvette (RH), Ridox, I'm happy of her (conventional) LSD, compared to the original car, it's day & nigth

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yup, but your LSD setting method is not really how I tune a LSD...
There's two method, the one you use, and the more conventional method but a lot more complicated to do, with low initial, that also give good results.

Check out my 500pp C3 Corvette (RH), Ridox, I'm happy of her (conventional) LSD, compared to the original car, it's day & nigth

The low initial tend to have limited range in accel and braking value -increase to high value on both the car will be too oversteery and understeery, which IMO also limits the range of tuning limits available ( not on all car though ). With high initial, I can also run lower accel and brake ( less than 20 ), the car usually behaves like low initial LSD method would, but with less drastic changes when on the limit. Of course, tire grip level used also have a play as well as the type of tracks ( Bathurst, Apricot Hill, Willow Springs, etc ) I guess I prefer the way I tune LSD because I like to make replicas

I will try that C3 Corvette

 

[demonchilde]

Your going to find, most garages are willing to help you learn, as the above demonstrates.

Even if we all tend to get to technical in our speech, and forget we're talking to someone who is just beginning tuning, as above also demonstrates, lol.

Slow down guys, or you'll lose him before we get him interested, lol.

However, Swinkle, the LSD talk is well warranted.
Almost every car in the game can be tamed "enough to use" changing nothing but the 3 LSD settings. So learning how to tweak those 3 numbers, is highly bennificial to you. At first glance a lot of this technical talk will make it look extremely hard to understand tuning, and maybe even turn you away from it. Don't be scared, this is a lot easier then it seems. I mean, some aspects are a pain. But most of it is easy, you just need patience.
If you don't have patience, just have others tune for you, lol.
If you DO have patience, you will understand this all in no time.

 

[Swinkel]

Thanks for your help everyone. Yesterday I first tried out Ridox's R8 tune and was amazed how the oversteer was gone. I had no idea that LSD could have such an impact!

I used Willow Springs as my test track and got around the track pretty fast. I kept having problems with the small corkscrew, heavy braking while turning left and accelerate again while turning right. I felt less at control there and still needed to be careful. Especially if I compare it with my Honda Raybrig HSV which does have a good balance and flies through these bends quickly while still being in control.

Then I decided to put your guidelines to good use and gave it a go myself. In the end it was drivable but kept having this problem with the corkscrew. I added weight to fix the balance somewhat 48/52 and in my excitement started International A GT500 race at Grand Valley Speedway for 5 laps. Pushing the car it was quite fast but I did end up spinning 3 times and did not finnish 1st. My rookie tuning had improved the handling dramatically and I am quite happy with this. Still it's not good enough for my own (lack of) driving skills. I only had an hour yesterday so had to give up for the day.

Fortunately for me I do have patience Demonchilde All ready tuned cars may be a good alternative but I feel car handling is also personal preference and I would like to invest my time to understand the main mechanics so I can change it to my own liking. I admit I get lost with the very technical parts though but I would be foolish if I think I would learn it in a day

I will print out Motor City Hamilton's extensive tuning guide and have a good read today.

Again thanks for your time and your efforts everyone. It's very much appreciated!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Thanks for your help everyone. Yesterday I first tried out Ridox's R8 tune and was amazed how the oversteer was gone. I had no idea that LSD could have such an impact!

I used Willow Springs as my test track and got around the track pretty fast. I kept having problems with the small corkscrew, heavy braking while turning left and accelerate again while turning right. I felt less at control there and still needed to be careful. Especially if I compare it with my Honda Raybrig HSV which does have a good balance and flies through these bends quickly while still being in control.

Then I decided to put your guidelines to good use and gave it a go myself. In the end it was drivable but kept having this problem with the corkscrew. I added weight to fix the balance somewhat 48/52 and in my excitement started International A GT500 race at Grand Valley Speedway for 5 laps. Pushing the car it was already fast but I did end up spinning 3 times and did not finnish 1st. My rookie tuning had improved the handling dramatically and I am quite happy with this. Still it's not good enough for my own (lack of) driving skills. I only had an hour yesterday so had to give up for the day.

Fortunately for me I do have patience Demonchilde All ready tuned cars may be a good alternative but I feel car handling is also personal preference and I would like to invest my time to understand the main mechanics so I can change it to my own liking. I admit I get lost with the very technical parts though but I would be foolish if I think it would learn it in a day

I will print out Motor City Hamilton's extensive tuning guide and have a good read today.

Again thanks for your time and your efforts everyone. It's very much appreciated!

For the R8 tune, I would suggest keep everything the same and to play around with front camber if you are having oversteer in low speed due to twitchy steering. I recommend to increase camber from around 0.3 to 1.2 max, more camber reduces overall grip For med to high speed, adjust aero balance, increase more rear if you feel too loose. Find a good balance to suit you. Oh, don't forget to avoid curbs, grass and track edges, they are very bad.

 

[Swinkel]

Thanks Ridox, I will try the front camber this evening. Yeah I noticed with this car even slightly out of track or on the curb and I was spinning around lol. Not a very forgiving car