Tuning; how much is too much?

[ITCC_Andrew]

Hey all,


I'm curious, what do you think of the balance between:


Flash and go? (i.e. 22" rims?)

stiff vs. soft? (uncomfortable/skittish vs. sloppy and rolly-polly-olly)

overpowered vs. underpowered?


I know it varies upon "ideal tasks," what you plan on doing with the car, and how much respect you want, but... where does your opinion of the line fall?


Disclaimer: Please don't rant or slam about anyone else's opinions. Discuss, do not spread hatred. Hatred belongs elsewhere.


Disclaimer #2: "rice" cars are not tuner cars, necessarily. Please, if you mention "body kits," make sure that the application suits the purposes.


Disclaimer #3: Please specify what your plans with a given car would be (i.e. autocross, drifting, time-attack, drag, rally, or daily driver.) We don't want to hear about a 600 hp Fox body Mustang, and think "yeah, autocross..." because it's illogical.

 

[nobuffalo]

Disclaimer #3: Please specify what your plans with a given car would be (i.e. autocross, drifting, time-attack, drag, rally, or daily driver.) We don't want to hear about a 600 hp Fox body Mustang, and think "yeah, autocross..." because it's illogical.

Really? Where did you come up with that opinion?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

In most cases. But, 600 hp, as many people found out, on an autocross, is too much. Tell that to the Corvette who binned some bumpers.

 

[Mike Rotch]

Disclaimer #3: Please specify what your plans with a given car would be (i.e. autocross, drifting, time-attack, drag, rally, or daily driver.) We don't want to hear about a 600 hp Fox body Mustang, and think "yeah, autocross..." because it's illogical.

You don't get to stipulate what people can or cannot discuss. Just as you don't want people passing judgement on your plans, don't pass judgement on theirs.

Another thing - people expressing opinions or views contrary to what you want to hear does not qualify as 'hatred'. Be very careful of labelling things you do not like to hear as 'hatred'.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Another thing - people expressing opinions or views contrary to what you want to hear does not qualify as 'hatred'. Be very careful of labelling things you do not like to hear as 'hatred'.

I'm talking about "no, you're not right" vs. "you're dumb, go away."


But, in most cases, there's a better car than the 600 hp Fox body, so, no, I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just not the most incredibly bright idea; who would not rather get a Miata? MR2? Impreza?

 

[Mike Rotch]

I'm talking about "no, you're not right" vs. "you're dumb, go away."

This is my point; the former is disagreement, the latter is rudeness.

But, in most cases, there's a better car than the 600 hp Fox body, so, no, I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just not the most incredibly bright idea; who would not rather get a Miata? MR2? Impreza?

Someone who loves foxbody Mustangs? It doesn't have to the quickest (although they may just as fast in the right hands as any other car), they just have to bring enjoyment to the owner. One that basis, any car is suitable for any motorsports category in which it qualifies, as winning is not the only variable contributing to 'joy'.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Which wording for my disclaimers would you prefer?

 

[homeforsummer]

Which wording for my disclaimers would you prefer?

How about removing the disclaimers altogether and simply letting people discuss things?

Y'know, like a forum...

 

[daan]

All the disclaimers you need are already here, therefore individual threads don't need disclaimers.

 

[Cano]

Really? Where did you come up with that opinion?

Oooh that thing is awesome :0

 

[nobuffalo]

But, in most cases, there's a better car than the 600 hp Fox body, so, no, I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just not the most incredibly bright idea; who would not rather get a Miata? MR2? Impreza?

Wait a minute, what car are you planning to turn into an autocross project? Don't start judging other's ideas if you don't want yours to be judged, you've made it clear more than a couple times you don't like people doing so.

These CP cars often put down some of the fastest times of the day, seems like a reasonable idea to me. I'd like to see you tell the owners/drivers you don't think it's so bright to their face. What gives you the idea you know what particular car suits everyone and what their goals when autocrossing it are?

Oooh that thing is awesome :0

CP is one of my favorite classes to watch in autocross, driving those cars must be a hoot! Couple more.

 

[Cano]

Oh yeah, freaking hardcore.

As for cars bein' ideal, what would the fun be then if everyone went for the ideal? We'd all be driving miatas and Fox bodies because cheap and ideal. Diversity is where it's at. Being different is cool, and making an unsuitable car work is a big achievement, too.

 

[speed junkie]

I know it varies upon "ideal tasks," what you plan on doing with the car, and how much respect you want, but... where does your opinion of the line fall?

All my other categories are pretty much maxed out at 10. What do I need in order to improve respect?

 

[Crash]

I've seen Corvettes, high-power Foxbody Mustangs, the new Shelby GT500 and Porsche 911 GT3s at autocrosses. All of them lay down incredibly fast times. From my experience, I reckon the Corvettes in particular are often faster than the WRX, even STis around an autocross course.

There are different course designs, even in autocrossing, and certain designs are higher speed while some designs are slower and more technical. Just as well, a less agile but faster car may in the end be just as quick around a course as an agile, but slower car. It's just different strokes for different folks, especially in autocross where many folks are not solely seeking the fastest possible time.

 

[Anathema]

If you'd like to know my personal opinion;

1: I'm not one who cares for giant rims and flashy stuff like that. Unless it serves a purpose (this also includes oversized wings) then I do not see the need for it. I may be biased, but when driving the Del Sol at night & when I brake... the rear light that runs across the top shines on the wing, and it's annoying, frankly. The only real reason we (me and my father) still have it on is because we don't want to have holes in the trunk lid. Once we find a replacement deck without the wing holes, we'll put it on.

There is a logical reason (at least in my personal driving experience, and in this case) for not having anything fancy or showy.

2: Again, this comes from driving the Del Sol. I live in Pennsylvania, and the backroads are some of the best things to drive on... if you have the right car. The Del Sol's settings are middle-or-the-road, leaning toward the stiffer side. The Jetta we had before the Del Sol was the same way (until the shocks just wore out.) Being as both were FF cars, I can't say that they were skittish - but they stuck to the road and let you feel it. Compared to the '68 Mustang my uncle has, they're a lot better. The Mustang in this case is 100% original parts, except for a paintjob. It handles like a land yacht, but has the grunt to go fast. (It's a 289 with an auto transmission.) The suspension is built like a floater, but that's more because of the era it was made in. You can feel every crack, bump, and pebble on the road, though. A hoot to drive.

I can't answer number three yet, since the Jetta and the Del Sol were about equal in terms of power. I am looking into buying a Toyota Supra, however. (a Mark III, MA70 code, the turbo I6.)

 

[McLaren]

I'm talking about "no, you're not right" vs. "you're dumb, go away."

Oh, you mean the thing you do to others when you don't like what they have to say?

But, in most cases, there's a better car than the 600 hp Fox body, so, no, I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just not the most incredibly bright idea; who would not rather get a Miata? MR2? Impreza?

I think this highly applies to you as well. In which case, I think the Fox Body is actually a much better platform to start with.

The aftermarket for it is incredibly vast for whatever you plan to do with it.

 

[Perfect Balance]

All my other categories are pretty much maxed out at 10. What do I need in order to improve respect?

You earn respect by doing things that increases "street cred". Burnouts, flybys, aggressive lane switching, ect.

Be careful though, since you say your other categories are at 10. If you get too much respect, you could overdo it and enter what they call "overtune", and you can never come back from overtune.

 

[Slash]

These days, making power is cheap and easy thanks to aftermarket. All you really need is a few bolts to make the same power stroker engines made 20 years ago. Top end kits would be as far as I would go, but that depends on the engine.

 

[Azuremen]

But, in most cases, there's a better car than the 600 hp Fox body, so, no, I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just not the most incredibly bright idea; who would not rather get a Miata? MR2? Impreza?

Are you serious? Making power out of a Foxbody is crazy easy and cheap, and there are fairly cheap kits to replace the suspension to make it suitable for Auto-x. Certainly cheaper and easier to build into a serious Auto-X car than an automatic Impreza wagon.

But go ahead, keep talking like you know anything while constantly displaying that, in fact, you know next to nothing.

 

[Slash]

For example, a reliable 400+hp (If not plenty more) can be made under $2k pretty easily. 600+ is more expensive.

 

[ND4SPD]

Cp Class car's are the car's I drool over. I've always wanted to turn my Camaro into a CP class car if I decide to turn it into a dedicated track car.

Just like this one...

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Looking past the idea that the two latter "disclaimers" contradict the first one...

It depends on the application, obviously. That CP Camaro ND4SPD just posted looks badass in an utterly form-follows-function way, but simply going by looks, I don't think I'd want to deal with it as a daily driver. Saying that, I recognize I could very well be wrong, and it may be fine for that purpose. Personally, I'd rather my daily driver look more like, uh, a daily driver, with no completely obvious hints that it knows its way around a track day. That is, if the car's going to be doing both; tying back to the first sentence, it depends on the intentions. I saw an all-black '13 Mustang GT yesterday on black 20" heavily-dished rims; I'm sure it's not the most comfortable ride, and the handling has probably suffered a bit, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't an awesome sight. For that particular car, at that particular time... performance be damned (relatively, of course; it's still a 420hp machine).

But, in most cases, there's a better car than the 600 hp Fox body, so, no, I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just not the most incredibly bright idea; who would not rather get a Miata? MR2? Impreza?

Which one's the better one then? I mean, all three of those can't be equally better than the Fox, one must be better than the others, and by your logic, the "right" choice, correct?

Like Monsieur Crotch commented, there's more to 'joy' than the "best" car for the job. Hell, to an extent, that's the entire reason Q-cars and hot hatches have such followings.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Thank you, to the two of you who actually stayed on-topic and overlooked the amount of trolls and moderators who came after me for trying to keep the thread on-track.


I should mention that "CP" class doesn't exist in Canada, so... I had no idea people actually wanted to make high-horsepower versions of a car that will spend very little time on the throttle at an autocross event. Excuse me, and then forget it. Move on, the horse was dead 15 posts ago.

 

[Clark]

I don't get this fascination with autocross in the US, the only thing similar we have in the UK is autotesting but in that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Go to 4:09 on this vid.


And back on topic, most 'tuning' is too much and pointless for me. I know a mate who has a Mk1 Mx5 that ride so stupidly stiff and low and aren't enjoyable to be in on the road. I don't understand the point, a car doesn't have too be bone-jarringly stiff to handle well. My car is stiffer than most normal cars but it doesn't dive and crash in to bumps and dips all over the place.

 

[Azuremen]

Thank you, to the two of you who actually stayed on-topic and overlooked the amount of trolls and moderators who came after me for trying to keep the thread on-track.

You realize the point of the staff is to allow threads to develop properly and organically. Those disclaimers you put out there, as they mentioned, where just silly. Basically, drop the attitude and people might, shockingly, get along with you better.

You realize that the large V8 powered cars are quite decent in auto-x because they have endless torque, thus gear choice and shifting are less of an issue? And that things like ZO6's do quite well because they can handle and have torque?

As for tuning itself, it is generally better to just buy a stock car that is faster rather than slowly trying to make a slow car fast. There are some exceptions in my mind, like cars that are quite cheap to make fast (Foxbody) or rather unique platforms like the MR2. But generally, the cost of parts and the hassle of getting things to work correctly is more than the price difference in upgrading to a different car, such as trying to get a 318i to perform like an M3.

My personal thoughts are just bolt-ons to get a touch extra, or more often to replace failing OEM parts. Things such as engine swaps and so on are just beyond my interest anymore, and I'd rather just save the money to invest in replacing the car further down the road.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Cp Class car's are the car's I drool over. I've always wanted to turn my Camaro into a CP class car if I decide to turn it into a dedicated track car.

Just like this one...

 

[ND4SPD]

Thank you, to the two of you who actually stayed on-topic and overlooked the amount of trolls and moderators who came after me for trying to keep the thread on-track.


I should mention that "CP" class doesn't exist in Canada, so... I had no idea people actually wanted to make high-horsepower versions of a car that will spend very little time on the throttle at an autocross event. Excuse me, and then forget it. Move on, the horse was dead 15 posts ago.

Doesn't matter. You can build a CP class car and enter it into an autoslalom event here. As long as it's a road worthy vehicle ie; safe and passes tech it can compete. There are a multitude of classes in Canadian autoslalom events that whatever you bring will be put into a class. In fact CP class car's seem close in reg to the Prepared Class or XP class we have over here. Also, with the number of open track day's where the only thing needed to compete is a car that passes tech and you having proper safety equipment you can run a CP class car around mosport if you were so inclined.

 

[nobuffalo]

Thank you, to the two of you who actually stayed on-topic and overlooked the amount of trolls and moderators who came after me for trying to keep the thread on-track.

Ahh, so disagreeing with some silly comment is now trolling? People are "coming after you" for a reason, hopefully sooner than later you'll figure out why.

As for me and tuning I've never done much more than tires and shocks, because money has always been a limit. I could give 2 ***** what other people do to their cars, it's only when they start dissing other's ideas or have a holier than thou attitude that I start getting annoyed. People like that usually don't do any kind of real/competitive driving and when they do they quickly shut up.

I had no idea people actually wanted to make high-horsepower versions of a car that will spend very little time on the throttle at an autocross event. Excuse me, and then forget it. Move on, the horse was dead 15 posts ago.

Based on your earlier comments it's hard to not read that as a dig, furthermore it's not entirely true. These cars hit WOT nearly the same number of times I do in my Miata, they just spend less time there because guess what, they're covering that distance way faster. They're also likely on the throttle the same amount of time I am, but where as I may be at 70% throttle, they're at 40%. Keep in mind their 40 is like my 120.

This may not be one of those 600hp Mustangs, but you can see even with a lot of power the cars go, turn and stop well. The second run will give you a better idea of why the power is a bright idea.

I don't get this fascination with autocross in the US, the only thing similar we have in the UK is autotesting but in that's a whole different kettle of fish.

People are fascinated with driving. Autocross is a great way to safely learn the limits of your car and improve your driving, period. It's competitive and relatively cheap and you can compete in nearly any car. It's also close.

As you said that autotesting is a whole different thing, really, and was likely developed because of the lack of space, just like autocross. I wouldn't do it though unless I had a car built for it, looks like it can be hell on transmissions/axles plus I like a little more speed.

 

[Doog]

Thank you, to the two of you who actually stayed on-topic and overlooked the amount of trolls and moderators who came after me for trying to keep the thread on-track.

Maybe it's because these so-called 'disclaimers' are yet another instance of you not being able to handle any form of opinion that makes you or your car look unfavorable, causing you to resort to the very things these 'disclaimers' warn against and labeling everybody who disagrees with you a 'troll'. You seem to think everyone's ganged up against you and you're just the poor little underdog trying to run with the big boys in an automatic wagon. You do realize that if you're serious about establishing this tuning garage of yours, you're going to have to hear out all the opinions, good and bad. You need to get over it.

Get off your high horse.

 

[Joey D]

So yeah, car tuning then.

Pretty much doing anything aftermarket to a street car isn't really worth it unless you are planning on spending a boat load of money in my opinion. Most of the time intakes, exhausts, etc. don't really add that much to the car in relation to their cost. However, people do it because it's fun and they like to personalize their vehicles. I have a couple things done to my car which adds around 20hp (per what other's have dynoed with the same parts) which isn't much but it provides slightly better acceleration when I go to pass someone on the freeway and I like the way it sounds. Same thing goes for my rims, they aren't the lightest but they look good and they still are lighter than the OEM ones.

When it comes to tuning I think the most important thing someone can do is swap the tires for something that doesn't suck. Putting proper tires on your car is going to improve the performance of any car. I think tires are often overlooked because many people just like to add more power without thinking about how it's getting to the ground (see: a huge group of Mustang and Camaro owners).

When it comes down to it though it's your car and if you want to spend your money on tuning it then by all means go for it.