- 135
- Grabiha
Which is better at what?
Turbos Vs Superchargers
- Thread starter thechadmartinez
- 40 comments
- 16,724 views
- 15
- Volk_Zadovsky
Supercharging versus turbocharging
Positive-displacement superchargers may absorb as much as a third of the total crankshaft power of the engine, and, in many applications, are less efficient than turbochargers. In applications for which engine response and power are more important than any other consideration, such as top-fuel dragsters and vehicles used in tractor pulling competitions, positive-displacement superchargers are very common.
There are three main categories of superchargers for automotive use:
* Centrifugal turbochargers – driven from exhaust gases.
* Centrifugal superchargers – driven directly by the engine via a belt-drive.
* Positive displacement pumps – such as the Roots, Twin Screw(Lysholm), and TVS(Eaton) blowers.
The thermal efficiency, or fraction of the fuel/air energy that is converted to output power, is less with a mechanically-driven supercharger than with a turbocharger, because turbochargers are using energy from the exhaust gases that would normally be wasted. For this reason, both the economy and the power of a turbocharged engine are usually better than with superchargers. The main advantage of an engine with a mechanically-driven supercharger is better throttle response, as well as the ability to reach full-boost pressure instantaneously. With the latest turbocharging technology, throttle response on turbocharged cars is nearly as good as with mechanically-powered superchargers, but the existing lag time is still considered a major drawback, especially considering that the vast majority of mechanically-driven superchargers are now driven off clutched pulleys, much like an air compressor.
Turbochargers suffer (to a greater or lesser extent) from so-called turbo-spool (turbo lag; more correctly, boost lag), in which initial acceleration from low RPM is limited by the lack of sufficient exhaust gas mass flow (pressure). Once engine RPM is sufficient to start the turbine spinning, there is a rapid increase in power, as higher turbo boost causes more exhaust gas production, which spins the turbo yet faster, leading to a belated "surge" of acceleration. This makes the maintenance of smoothly-increasing RPM far harder with turbochargers than with engine-driven superchargers, which apply boost in direct proportion to the engine RPM.
Roots blowers tend to be 40–50% efficient at high boost levels. Centrifugal superchargers are 70–85% efficient. Lysholm-style blowers can be nearly as efficient as their centrifugal counterparts over a narrow range of load/speed/boost, for which the system must be specifically designed.
Keeping the air that enters the engine cool is an important part of the design of both superchargers and turbochargers. Compressing air increases its temperature, so it is common to use a small radiator called an intercooler between the pump and the engine to reduce the temperature of the air.
In the 1985 and 1986 World Rally Championships, Lancia ran the Delta S4 which incorporated both a belt driven supercharger and exhaust driven turbocharger. The design used a complex series of bypass valves in the induction and exhaust systems, and an electromagnetic clutch so that at low engine speeds boost was derived from the supercharger, in the middle of the rev range boost was derived from both systems, whilst at the highest revs the system disconnected drive from the supercharger and isolated the associated ducting.[7] This was done in an attempt to exploit the advantages of each of the charging systems whilst removing the disadvantages. In turn this approach brought greater complexity and impacted on the cars reliability in WRC events, whilst also increasing the weight of engine ancillaries in the finished design.
A turbo can apply power at the rpm range you need it with the stage 1-3 turbos, but there is a chance of power coming on very quickly and spinning you out, or having difficulty getting revs back up if you spin or crash. A Supercharger gives less power over the entire range of revs. A turbo will never require hp to operate, but a supercharger will.
Also, fun fact, the Lancia Delta S4 rally car, has both a turbo and a supercharger.
Positive-displacement superchargers may absorb as much as a third of the total crankshaft power of the engine, and, in many applications, are less efficient than turbochargers. In applications for which engine response and power are more important than any other consideration, such as top-fuel dragsters and vehicles used in tractor pulling competitions, positive-displacement superchargers are very common.
There are three main categories of superchargers for automotive use:
* Centrifugal turbochargers – driven from exhaust gases.
* Centrifugal superchargers – driven directly by the engine via a belt-drive.
* Positive displacement pumps – such as the Roots, Twin Screw(Lysholm), and TVS(Eaton) blowers.
The thermal efficiency, or fraction of the fuel/air energy that is converted to output power, is less with a mechanically-driven supercharger than with a turbocharger, because turbochargers are using energy from the exhaust gases that would normally be wasted. For this reason, both the economy and the power of a turbocharged engine are usually better than with superchargers. The main advantage of an engine with a mechanically-driven supercharger is better throttle response, as well as the ability to reach full-boost pressure instantaneously. With the latest turbocharging technology, throttle response on turbocharged cars is nearly as good as with mechanically-powered superchargers, but the existing lag time is still considered a major drawback, especially considering that the vast majority of mechanically-driven superchargers are now driven off clutched pulleys, much like an air compressor.
Turbochargers suffer (to a greater or lesser extent) from so-called turbo-spool (turbo lag; more correctly, boost lag), in which initial acceleration from low RPM is limited by the lack of sufficient exhaust gas mass flow (pressure). Once engine RPM is sufficient to start the turbine spinning, there is a rapid increase in power, as higher turbo boost causes more exhaust gas production, which spins the turbo yet faster, leading to a belated "surge" of acceleration. This makes the maintenance of smoothly-increasing RPM far harder with turbochargers than with engine-driven superchargers, which apply boost in direct proportion to the engine RPM.
Roots blowers tend to be 40–50% efficient at high boost levels. Centrifugal superchargers are 70–85% efficient. Lysholm-style blowers can be nearly as efficient as their centrifugal counterparts over a narrow range of load/speed/boost, for which the system must be specifically designed.
Keeping the air that enters the engine cool is an important part of the design of both superchargers and turbochargers. Compressing air increases its temperature, so it is common to use a small radiator called an intercooler between the pump and the engine to reduce the temperature of the air.
In the 1985 and 1986 World Rally Championships, Lancia ran the Delta S4 which incorporated both a belt driven supercharger and exhaust driven turbocharger. The design used a complex series of bypass valves in the induction and exhaust systems, and an electromagnetic clutch so that at low engine speeds boost was derived from the supercharger, in the middle of the rev range boost was derived from both systems, whilst at the highest revs the system disconnected drive from the supercharger and isolated the associated ducting.[7] This was done in an attempt to exploit the advantages of each of the charging systems whilst removing the disadvantages. In turn this approach brought greater complexity and impacted on the cars reliability in WRC events, whilst also increasing the weight of engine ancillaries in the finished design.
A turbo can apply power at the rpm range you need it with the stage 1-3 turbos, but there is a chance of power coming on very quickly and spinning you out, or having difficulty getting revs back up if you spin or crash. A Supercharger gives less power over the entire range of revs. A turbo will never require hp to operate, but a supercharger will.
Also, fun fact, the Lancia Delta S4 rally car, has both a turbo and a supercharger.
- 2,605
- Newport
- NFSCARBON1
Volk, don't Volkswagen sell a Golf with a turbo and a supercharger? I think it's called the TSI.
- 2,227
- Portland, Oregon
Ok, so this is what I've Come up with.
*The choice between a turbocharger and a supercharger depend on a lot of variables, such as: The car, the track, the tuning setup for the car, the situation, and finally, your driving style.
*The type of car that works well with a turbocharger is usually one with a good amount of power to begin with.
*The gearing of a car with a turbocharger is much more important that the gearing on a supercharged car.
*The type of tracks that favor turbochargers usually have long straightaways.
*Turbochargers usually create more power, but the downside to the extra power is that it kicks in in the higher RPM's, so when driving on a technical course with a turbocharged car you need to pay careful attention to what RPM's you are in, but with a supercharged car, you get the extra power in a larger range of RPM's, but you may lose a little in the power gains to the turbocharger.
*You want your car to keep from being dependent on the extra source of power, this way you don't need to constantly cycle through gears to get power.
* And finally, it changes on the car type. Cars with 300hp or more before tuning usually do better with turbochargers, because they have sufficient power to pull through without constantly switching through different gears. Cars with less power usually need a supercharger to stay within their effective power range.
For example I tried my fully tuned '91 Miata both with a turbocharger and with a super charger and found the supercharger to be far superior than the turbocharger. But maybe if I were choosing between the two for a 370Z or something with similar power, I may choose the turbocharger because it has sufficient power already.
But it is a personal preference, so buy them both if you find a car that can use either a turbocharger or supercharger (I don't know any other than the Miata so don't ask) and see what you like more.
I really hope this helps everyone!
*The choice between a turbocharger and a supercharger depend on a lot of variables, such as: The car, the track, the tuning setup for the car, the situation, and finally, your driving style.
*The type of car that works well with a turbocharger is usually one with a good amount of power to begin with.
*The gearing of a car with a turbocharger is much more important that the gearing on a supercharged car.
*The type of tracks that favor turbochargers usually have long straightaways.
*Turbochargers usually create more power, but the downside to the extra power is that it kicks in in the higher RPM's, so when driving on a technical course with a turbocharged car you need to pay careful attention to what RPM's you are in, but with a supercharged car, you get the extra power in a larger range of RPM's, but you may lose a little in the power gains to the turbocharger.
*You want your car to keep from being dependent on the extra source of power, this way you don't need to constantly cycle through gears to get power.
* And finally, it changes on the car type. Cars with 300hp or more before tuning usually do better with turbochargers, because they have sufficient power to pull through without constantly switching through different gears. Cars with less power usually need a supercharger to stay within their effective power range.
For example I tried my fully tuned '91 Miata both with a turbocharger and with a super charger and found the supercharger to be far superior than the turbocharger. But maybe if I were choosing between the two for a 370Z or something with similar power, I may choose the turbocharger because it has sufficient power already.
But it is a personal preference, so buy them both if you find a car that can use either a turbocharger or supercharger (I don't know any other than the Miata so don't ask) and see what you like more.
I really hope this helps everyone!
- 1,426
- Burammm
Indeed.. a lot depends on the track. E.g. for the Roadster endurance on Tsukuba I equipped my Miata with a supercharger because it provides boost almost instantly. This track is very cramped and you're on and off the gas all the time almost without any chance to go all out. A supercharger is much more efficient here than any of the turbo options.
- 2,227
- Portland, Oregon
Yeah, up until the Miata, every car I had used the turbo, but I guess turbochargers don't work for everything. I can't remember what the difference was on Tsukuba, but with the supercharger I got boost in the corners in not just the straights but also the corners. Therefore, it had a much faster lap time, and I even had a lot more fun driving it. This small problem makes me wish you could twin-turbocharge cars so you could have a mid-range and a high-range turbo charger. Or BiTurbos could be nice because they produce monstrous amounts of torque. Twincharging (Turbocharger and Supercharger) would be even more amazing.
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- 1,092
- Ecchi_BANZAII
Lots of sharp corners? Get Supercharger.
Long straights? Get Turbocharger.
If it's somewhere between I'd get a low RPM or medium RPM Turbocharger.
Long straights? Get Turbocharger.
If it's somewhere between I'd get a low RPM or medium RPM Turbocharger.
- 3,203
- Philippines
- skygrasper_550--
You get that message because your car has a turbocharger fitted and you want to equip a supercharger in it. That is called twin-charging, which is not possible in GT5. In GT5, you can only choose between a turbocharger and a supercharger, not both. You'll get the same message if your car had a supercharger fitted into it and you're gonna buy and equip a turbocharger in it.
even thought twin-charging a car is not possible in GT5, a twin-charged car DOES exist in GT5 (Lancia Delta S4)
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- 88,398
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
I have the 2011 Polo GTI which has a 1400cc motor with a blower & a turbocharger. It puts out 132 KW at the wheels & 250 NM torque- from a 1400. The blower gets you off the line with loads of grunt & then the turbo comes into play. Just pulls & pulls. Great fun little car!
- 1,244
- Illinois, U.S.A
- Mr_Lucky_Pants
- mrluckypants96
The Supercharger helps by providing instant boost right from idle, after the revs build, the turbo is spun up and the supercharger is disconnected to prevent overspeeding of the supercharger.
- 88,398
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
- 40,980
Though it should be said because modern turbochargers can be so good at low-end response with minimal lag, the benefits of having a supercharger for down-low are decreasing with each advance because the twincharged engine is so expensive to produce (comparatively).
- 966
- Tennessee
- Bobert962C
IMO, i like both. But i prefer turbo, because i like the lag, but superchargers always have full power from the engine, so no lag in superchargers.😊
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Want low down torque, good response and less focus on top end hp, go with supercharger, more pressure means massive torque increase from down low and wide power band with usually good hp increase.
In GT5 this is not the case, the low boost supercharger only have 1 stage increase and most are tuned toward low to mid rpm torque increase with less emphasis on hp increase on top end. Best suited for tracks with low/medium speed corners and shorter straight.
Want medium to high rpm torque bump, with lag involved and good dose of hp at the top end, go with turbocharger, more pressure means more top end power, more lag and less favorable torque increase compared to supercharger.
In GT5, the recommended turbocharger upgrade is stage 2 medium turbo, with usually the highest torque numbers and top end power that's marginally less than stage 3, best suited for most tracks that has various speed corners and long straight. If top speed is the main goal, go for stage 3, this is where supercharger in GT5 can't compete. Stage 1 turbo is best for shorter tracks with short straight section or where acceleration/response is essential.
In GT5 this is not the case, the low boost supercharger only have 1 stage increase and most are tuned toward low to mid rpm torque increase with less emphasis on hp increase on top end. Best suited for tracks with low/medium speed corners and shorter straight.
Want medium to high rpm torque bump, with lag involved and good dose of hp at the top end, go with turbocharger, more pressure means more top end power, more lag and less favorable torque increase compared to supercharger.
In GT5, the recommended turbocharger upgrade is stage 2 medium turbo, with usually the highest torque numbers and top end power that's marginally less than stage 3, best suited for most tracks that has various speed corners and long straight. If top speed is the main goal, go for stage 3, this is where supercharger in GT5 can't compete. Stage 1 turbo is best for shorter tracks with short straight section or where acceleration/response is essential.
- 40
- Atlanta, GA
- TheRealPhattyJ
Brought this up in the who wants n2o back in gt thread, Zex has a nitrous kit that uses microbursts while you've got the throttle wide open and the engine is in the lower rpm's to keep the power up while the turbo spools. Just thought y'all might be interested.
- 543
- Missouri
- SpiritHockey61
Superchargers will give you a more effective boost at low rpm but will lack in the overall amount of boost where as turbos will produce more boost but have "turbo lag" which is the range of rpms that are not effected by the turbo (These are low rpms. Usually 0-3k rpm)
- 5,814
- Hillsboro Oregon
- XDesperado67
- XDesperado67
In game the Supercharger tends to create a lot more torque than Turbochargers do. On cars that have relatively low amounts of torque this can greatly aid acceleration and help on hilly courses. However the game generally limits your choice on which charging system you can use and many of the cars that you can equip with Superchargers already have enough torque to shred the tires without careful throttle input. Also if you are running under PP restrictions Torque is taken into account when figuring total PP so the extra Torque generated by a Supercharger can have a negative impact on the cars overall performance if that torque isn't usable. This last point mainly comes into play at the lower PP levels where the relatively limited power available must be carefully balanced between HP for top speed and Torque to accelerate you out of corners and up hills.
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