Tyres, Pitsops and Psychic Abilty

Discussion in 'Project CARS 1' started by TT92, Jul 8, 2015.

  1. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    Now that I have your attention it is about time we brought this subject up. This is something I thought would become apparent the more I played the game BUT with me just ticking over 201 hours and into my 21st season this is just not the case :-(

    Tyres.

    So if I want a tyre for a McLaren F1 it is either a "McLaren F1" or a "CRT Denlon D40"? What is fitted when "Select by Weather" is chosen? And, before we even get there, WTF is a "CRT Denlon D40" anyway? Do a Google. I got zero hits, so it is a made up tyre that there is no information on from SMS either :-( Great!

    Now we start see why we need psychic ability but it does get better.

    I was running the Ginetta GT5 in its championship that has a mandatory pit stop. Tyre choice is easy and understandable............ or so you would think with the choice of GT5 rain or slick. But what about when you pit and you can select wet, extreme wet, intermediate, hard, medium or soft slick? So when I fit extreme wet (coz it was raining...... very hard) what got fitted? I thought what ever it was, was great :-) So again, one must use psychic ability to know how to set your car up and what bits are actually bolted to it ;-)

    But wait, there is more. The AI and now me can predetermine weather by selecting tyre choice by weather. How do I know what is actually on with my psychic ability you ask? Easy. Use an open wheel car and look at the tread. Well at least you know whether (excuse the pun) or not if it is a slick or treaded ;-)

    I have started races on a bright sunny track, with a forecast of clear and seen treaded tyres and it did rain halfway through the last lap. (Zolder is a good example for doing this). Great when the tyres are glowing red hot by turn 3 :-( I have even restarted the exact same race and been on slicks. So what gives? Does the game toss a coin an rely on random chance here or what? I should add, in this example, of course it is better to start on slicks and take the last half lap very carefully in the wet.

    There are many other examples of made up tyre names and we won't get into them for now but my point is what do these fictitious things do and how do I know what I am actually using after a pit stop?

    Oh and I won't even start on about not knowing tyre wear and how soft slicks seem to outlast a tank of fuel in an LMP1 car at Le Mans :-( Obviously my psychic ability needs a tune up here too ;-)

    So how many more people are also confused and bewildered by tyres in this game?
     
  2. NLxAROSA

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    They're not made up, they're based on data from real tires, but they can't use the actual brands/names because of licensing. Denlon would be Dunlop, Masculin would be Michelin for example. It's not that hard with a bit of imagination. ;)

    I also think someone posted a list here (or on Project CARS forum, not sure) with all the tires and their real life names.
     
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  3. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    OK then, so I am using my imagination really hard right now so what sort of tyre is a "McLaren F1" then? And what are the characteristics compared to the Masculin? I seem to be drawing a blank, how is your imagination going?

    Regardless it still doesn't answer the questions about what are their characteristics and what tyre is fitted to the vehicle. Also I do not believe that these tyres behave this badly on the F1 in real life. And this is just one example of what I am trying to discuss.
     
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  4. Krizzay

    Krizzay

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    These are (irl) specially designed tires for the McLaren F1 by Goodyear and Michelin.
     
  5. MANARANCHE

    MANARANCHE

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    It is true that it is particularly painful to have no information on lle assembly of tires in the garage with choice according to the weather report! :banghead:
     
  6. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    And it compares to a "CRT Denlon D40" how? Why can't it be simple? e.g. Street tyre, Sports tyre, Soft track tyre etc It is at times like this when I start to miss GT6 ;-)

    This is just one example, the problem encompasses several vehicles.
     
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  7. bleeder

    bleeder

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    Yes, I had a choice of either Faretti or Yiro slicks, and although I know these are just 2 different brands, it'd be nice to know if one was soft and one hard, for example. why would they have 2 different sets of slicks if they are just the same as each other?
     
  8. NLxAROSA

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    Because real life isn't that simple? E.g. a Toyo (Yiro) sports tire is not the same as a Masculin (Michelin) sports tire, or a Pirelli tire. And each car comes with a specific set. And yes, they're all individually modelled with their own stats. :) So I think this is a good thing, despite the fake names. Having 'simple' options is having fake options, the ones in Project CARS are real.

    But agreed that the 'best by weather' option is confusing, it should at least show in the UI somewhere which one it picked, because now it's just guessing.

    They're not. But the difference could be more subtle than just hard vs soft if I am not mistaken. A description would be nice, I agree. Now you just have to try to see what's the difference.
     
  9. Krizzay

    Krizzay

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    The only tires that behaved somehow realistic in GT were the "comfort" tires, and that is on every car, even the Ferrari F1.

    For the comparisson, try to look up the difference of the custom tire for the McLaren and the high performance modern street options from Dunlop, then you have an idea.
     
  10. NLxAROSA

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  11. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    CRT Delon D40 most likely refer to the CTR Yellowbird tire - Dunlop Denloc Sport D40 run flat tires, the tire was specific fitment selected by Alois Ruf to enable the CTR achieve it's top speed safely. The tire was derived from special Dunlop Denloc system tire fitted on Gr C Porsche 956 :) Bridgestone produced the RE71 Denloc as well, a special fitment on the road car Porsche 959.

    These tires should have similar traction and grip level rating as Goodyear Eagle F1, the standard fitment tire for McLaren F1 ( the F1 had much wider tread though, 235/45ZR17 F, 315/45ZR17 R ), and yet on 200ft skid pad, the F1 only managed lateral acceleration of 0.86 G with heavy understeer balance, and speed through 700ft slalom at 64.5 mph with moderate understeer. The F1 had a tested weight of 1288+kg with 41/59 distribution.
     
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  12. micantony

    micantony

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    WHy don't you guys who know this stuff send it to Ian at SMS and get them to put the damn description of each in the game. Their specs at least so we have a clue as the original poster is referring to.
     
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  13. mr_serious

    mr_serious

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    I did actually report some of these as issues a couple of weeks ago on the pcars forum. No acknowledgement from anyone however.

    The pit strategy options matching what is possible for the car to fit should have been designed in from the start. It is a total disconnect at the moment.

    I couldn't agree more about the tyre descriptions as well. There is this large space on the right hand side of the screen just begging for a description and some stats for the tyres.
     
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  14. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    I should add that in GT6, both the Yellowbird and McLaren F1 replica that I have built/posted are on CM / Comfort medium tires and they can lap similar lap times to real life lap record at Tsukuba with realistic pace :p

    @TT92
    Here is a quick blind tune made using real life data references adapted to Pcars :


    http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/114602945

    This is not yet tested, so feel free to try it. Hoping it will drive with some understeer like real life test ( skidpad + slalom ) Try both tires, F1 and Denloc, see how different both when driven.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
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  15. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    Some of the replies here are pointing to the cryptic names referring to real tyres. I can accept that BUT where does it state anywhere in the released game data on PS4 that this is in fact true? Or that SMS has modelled the tyre physics accurately on these real life tyres?

    Do I here the reply "nowhere"? Is this supporting my notion that psychic ability is required to set cars up? :-))

    So therefore I stand by my original comments. Surely it is not meant to be this hard?

    I want to point out that so far nearly everyone has gotten hung up on the McLaren F1 tyres and ignored how different tyres are available in the pit strategies and what tyres actually end up being fitted to the car on that pitstop.
     
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  16. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    Thankyou for your reply. I will give this a try at some stage. I would also like to add that I can't believe how long it takes to warm either tyre up so it has at least a little bit of grip ;-)

    Out of my group of about 10 friends that bought this game on PS4 I am the only one that is still playing it. I am a fairly hard-core gamer and avid racer so that will explain why I love the tuning options. The rest of my crew don't even want to have to set tyre pressures let alone go out and do tyre testing! The comments back to me are this game is just too hard and lacks being tuning friendly. We haven't here even touched on how unfriendly just setting a steering wheel up is :-(

    So my point still remains that it does not need to be this hard just to find some tyres to suit the track conditions at the time and what tyres are fitted during a pitstop.


    Edit: I can't access the tuning link because it requires a login name and password :-(
     
  17. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Sorry, the link was for editing session :ouch:, here is a good one :

    http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/114602945

    Tire pressure is quite intuitive in Pcars IMO, just follow what would you do in real life for the most part :)

    These 2 have been posted awhile ago, one with semi slick equivalent tire ( FQ400 ) and the other has received a review, 1M on Masculin UHP tires ( Michelin Pilot )

    http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/160377027

    http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/viewsetup/98110610

    I'm sure you will have fun with the 1M like a reviewer already dd :) The tires in pcars is rather specific to each car, during development, the consultants provides feedback on the tire of the car tested and SMS team would make adjustments to suit from grip ( cold, hot ), behavior ( heat, slip, feedback, progression, etc ) to wear. I don't think 2 different cars with same masculin tire are actually having the same tire and they are likely to have different width/tread, offset, profile and rim size to begin with.
     
  18. NLxAROSA

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    It doesn't state it anywhere, that's the whole problem.
    I can point you to the respective threads on WMD, but that's no use without access, so you'll have to take peoples word for this one. Anyway, realism should be verifiable in game. :)

    I don't think anyone disagrees with that. :)
     
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  19. wowbaggerBR

    wowbaggerBR

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    Thing is, they outlast a tank of fuel in LMP1s, my friend. There were people doing four stints with soft tyres in this year's running.

    About the rest, yeah, the game has these issues. What is more stupid is the weather conditions, such as direction and speed of wind, or elevation of the track, influencing your performance. Which is awesome, provided that this information is avaiable to the player.

    But, as it stands now, you have to be psychic to be able to tell if there is wind on the main straight ruining your times or no.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
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  20. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    That link works fine, cheers.

    Dare I say, wouldn't it be nice *IF* Pcars could save more than one set up (like GT6) so you could quickly toggle between setups and do comparisons between tunes or tyres. I am still very surprised (actually annoyed) at the fact that you can't have a saved wet set up already to go. Or even the ability to have another car with a different set up.

    It is very common for me in GT6 to have two identical cars (different colours actually) with different set ups, mainly because you could not take added aero off while in your garage at a race :-(

    Does anyone know why SMS made the game without being able save extra setups? Or even while at a race day not be able to load another set up from a different track? To me it seems like such a basic function.
     
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  21. NLxAROSA

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    That is coming. :) And yes, should have been there from the start, but priorities... It's essential IMO, especially with dynamic weather.
     
  22. MANARANCHE

    MANARANCHE

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    well that: Tup:
     
  23. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    This has been up for a few days now and no one has addressed the pitstop tyre issue I raised.

    Quote: Re: Ginetta GT5 "... with the choice of GT5 rain or slick. But what about when you pit and you can select wet, extreme wet, intermediate, hard, medium or soft slick? So when I fit extreme wet (coz it was raining...... very hard) what got fitted?"

    What tyres are actually fitted when you do a pitstop in the above example? Or when tyres are set to "By Weather" what actually goes on the vehicle when there are multiple choices of dry or wet tyres?
     
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  24. TexasTyme214

    TexasTyme214

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    I haven't checked, but I think that car only has two compounds, dry and rain. So, any wet tire will be the rain tire. And of the soft, med, hard will get you the one dry tire.
     
  25. TT92

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    It may be the case but how does anyone know? And whatever is the case, how is it proved?
     
  26. TexasTyme214

    TexasTyme214

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    You can't have any more tires than what's available in setup. You can prove this by trying a fixed weather condition and checking tire temps or grip levels with all the tires.
     
  27. TT92

    TT92 Premium

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    I had already considered this but that would then assume that "Quick Race" would play the same as "Career" mode. This introduces another variable into the testing which means it is still unproved.

    The closest I came up with was to re-run the same event over and over and do everything the same up until the pitstop and then change to the different type of tyres. The flaw with this is that the tyres and weather are not constant. I have raced with slicks in in Formula A in torrential downpours and been OK but can't drive in a straight line at other times with the same tyres on :-(

    There is only one way to ultimately decide this issue and that is at the source code of the game which means SMS need to definitively say something. Or just simply add a "what tyre is fitted" indicator to the HUD, just like GT6 does.