Understeer Force Feedback with a steering wheel

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marky5244

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I use a G25 steering wheel with GT5P. The Force Feedback through the wheel seems pretty good to me, but one thing that I'm surprised at is that there doesn't seem to be any particular feedback when the car is understeering. I expect the steering to go light but it doesn't. The only way I know that the car is understeering is because of the tyre sound and the car not going precisely in the expected direction. Is this lack of feedback realistic in comparison to a car in real life? In real life I only have experience of FF cars on the road so don't fancy experimenting to see what happens! :)
 
well, on dry tarmac the wheel doesn't really go featherlight. and the feel of lightness also depends of the powersteering. IMO it is pretty well modeled, if my sisters Astra can be used as benchmark when it comes to understeery FWDs :lol:
 
I purchased the Logitech DF GT specifically because of posts that talked about the FF providing a 'feel' for the road with the steering going light etc. I have tried all settings and FF strenghts in the options menu, however, and get NO feedback of any sort concerning understeer. I did specific tests holding the wheel steady and accelerating past the point of understeer and the wheel does nothing.
From what I can tell, Force Feedback is something 'cool' for those who care about feeling the bumps, but I thought it was supposed to help give a 'feel' for the road. I don't know why they would have left it out of prologue as it certainly wouldn't be hard to code. They know when understeer starts.
I plan to return the $150 wheel and get a $40 wheel with no FF plus a bass guitar and cymbols for rock band 2. I do want a wheel to get much better steering angle control than with the basic six axis.
 
Te article is talking about Forza Motorsports 2, but it describes exactly what we are talking about:
http://forzamotorsport.net/news/announcements/feedback.htm
From the Article:
"The feeling of aligning torque falling away sharply tells your hands that you are under-steering and you should back off the steering to regain peak friction. This is critical for pushing your car to its limits. You need to be able to feel the minute changes in aligning torque as your tires approach and surpass peak friction. By sensing and reacting to this torque, you can keep the tires at peak friction. Maintaining peak friction is the key to speed through corners. Very few games simulate aligning torque understeer in Force Feedback at all. Considering that almost every production car in the world from a Ford Focus or a Mitsubishi Lancer to a Ferrari Enzo or Porsche 911 steady state understeers, this is a huge element of driving realism for racing sims to miss in Force Feedback implementation.

When aligning torque is properly simulated in Force Feedback, it helps you to recover from both understeer and oversteer situations more quickly and precisely without large input swings that can disrupt the car and hurt your lap time. It makes steering highly intuitive and ultimately more immersive. The wheel comes alive in your hands and you have incredibly direct tactile feedback. It makes car control easier by providing you with the feedback required to have a dynamic two way conversation with the physics in Forza Motorsport 2. Most games that enable Force Feedback simulate aligning torque in the over-steer case, but very few simulate aligning torque in the understeer case."
 
Leonidae - You seem to indicate that you feel 'some' level of FF during understeer. What situations do you see it in? My best test is the long righthand sweeper at Fuji (turn 3?). if you hold the steering angle steady and accelerate the car will push right off the track with no steering feedback whatsoever. I feel the normal cornering resistance and get a good kick as it goes over the grass etc., but nothing to indicate the start of understeer.
 
You also have to take into consideration that in older FF cars ( that sadly aren't available in GT5P) the driveshafts were different length. This was the main reason of the torque steer. Nowadays, cars like Focus ST etc have equal length driveshafts which decreases the amount of wheelhop and understeer it causes. And in real life, in FF cars there rarely is that much feedback through the wheel when the understeer begins at ridiculously low speeds.
 
There is one sim/game that does it ok, rFactor with Realfeel and a mod that support it.
with that installed you get the forces from parts of the frontend suspension and steering.
And it's fairly easy to judge the grip levels depending on the feedback into the steering wheel. Problem is that not many mods are modeled correct.
 
nsbratt
I plan to return the $150 wheel and get a $40 wheel with no FF plus a bass guitar and cymbols for rock band 2. I do want a wheel to get much better steering angle control than with the basic six axis.
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I believe you are making a mistake. Just don't understeer and you'll be fine.
 
You will feel the difference going down to a cheapie wheel. Although understeer isn't modelled for feedback, the remaining effects still help you get around the track. I loved going up from a DFP to a G25 for its larger diameter wheel.

A bass and a set of cymbals could be fun though, if you spend more time in Rock Band 2. :)
 
Its a bit of a poor show to be fair, compare it to something like rFactor with the 'real feel' mod, blows GTP out of the water.

Lets just hope its all in the 'P' tho and the full game will be sorted. Lets face it, if PD want to make it the best they can, im sure it will be addressed.

What makes me laugh too is the lack of support for the G25 even though thats the wheel you saw them demo'ing with all those months ago before general release
 
an1mal_69
Its a bit of a poor show to be fair, compare it to something like rFactor with the 'real feel' mod, blows GTP out of the water.

Lets just hope its all in the 'P' tho and the full game will be sorted. Lets face it, if PD want to make it the best they can, im sure it will be addressed.
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It's on my personal wishlist for GT5
 
Thanks for the feedback. I did return the wheel but I assume I'll re-purchase a good one when the full GT5 comes out, but right now I needed the money more.

I am curious how the FF helps get around the track faster? I have cleared all 4 series and have the F1 car running fairly well just with the sixaxis, so I'm not to bad for a grown up with 4 kids (I can play maybe 3-4 hours a week tops). In my 2 days with the wheel I just didn't see what about the FF would help? The goal is to stay on-line, hit your breaking points correctly, and hold the max possible speed through the longer corners (you can just floor it out of the shorter corners so there is less of an issue there). By far the most important factor in lap times is exiting a corner with the most speed. if you back off the throttle late due to too much speed, that totally blows your speed for the whole next straight, and that's how you lose chunks of time. Without understeer feedback, the FF just seemed to be a kids gimmick to make it 'cool'.

Also, when you say "Just don't understeer", how exactly do you reccomend I do that If I am trying to get max speed through a corner?
 
Well, the FF itself will not do much to help your times. The wheel is what can help your times due to the ability for partial throttle and braking, as well as finer steering angle adjustments. When first obtaining my wheel I was too disappointed with my performance in comparison with the DS3/Sixaxis. However, persistance improved my opinion and times alike. The FF does give you an indication of both understeer and oversteer (I have a G25), but with such low FF modeling provided by GT5:P, it's hard to discern when the wheel begins to go dead or lose force in either situation. But, FF is no more a gimmick than the game itself. All the elements combine to make an emersive experience.

As far as understeer is concerned, max speed is not obtained through understeer, it's lost. Taking better lines, improving breaking points, and overall smoothing your approach will yield maximum corner speed and minimum lap times.
 
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nsbratt
Thanks for the feedback. I did return the wheel but I assume I'll re-purchase a good one when the full GT5 comes out, but right now I needed the money more.

I am curious how the FF helps get around the track faster? I have cleared all 4 series and have the F1 car running fairly well just with the sixaxis, so I'm not to bad for a grown up with 4 kids (I can play maybe 3-4 hours a week tops). In my 2 days with the wheel I just didn't see what about the FF would help? The goal is to stay on-line, hit your breaking points correctly, and hold the max possible speed through the longer corners (you can just floor it out of the shorter corners so there is less of an issue there). By far the most important factor in lap times is exiting a corner with the most speed. if you back off the throttle late due to too much speed, that totally blows your speed for the whole next straight, and that's how you lose chunks of time. Without understeer feedback, the FF just seemed to be a kids gimmick to make it 'cool'.

Also, when you say "Just don't understeer", how exactly do you reccomend I do that If I am trying to get max speed through a corner?
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Hi nsbratt, the difference between a sixaxi and a ff wheel is like driving a car in real life with a fly-by-wire joystick or a steering wheel.
It's unclear which physics model you are using because there is a huge difference in the way a car handles between standard and pro. In standard mode every car has tons of understeer, so this maybe why you think you are faster with understeer. With pro physics it is much easier to induce oversteer or yaw or rotation in the corner which is much faster. This is where the ff comes in. When you are on the edge you can feel the wheel start to pull towards opposite lock. If you're not feeling this in the wheel you are probably ploughing through the corner, tires screeching and heading for the grass. With time you can get a real feel of what the car is doing. Of course changing suspension settings will give the car a different feel in the corner.
For more on how to tune, visit the tuning sub-forum and for more on how to drive faster visit the Racing School thread in my sig.
 
One thing that alot of people don't know is if you have your wheel set up in the " pro " mode,it seems to lack something.Switch it over to the "sim" mode and it reacts just like you wheel in your car.
 
kart racer
One thing that alot of people don't know is if you have your wheel set up in the " pro " mode,it seems to lack something.Switch it over to the "sim" mode and it reacts just like you wheel in your car.
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Aren't those menu settings obsolete for the G25?
 
I'm not sure. But if you can change them, I say do it. You never know, it might make the difference. I use the DFGT.
 
kart racer
I'm not sure. But if you can change them, I say do it. You never know, it might make the difference. I use the DFGT.
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I've got a DFGT. I changed the settings to sim just incase as well. Not sure if it matters with a DFGT or G25 though.
 
In my opinion the force feedback is very poorly implemented into Prologue. However, if anyone remembers, when the original GT:HD demo came out, the PS3 didn't even support FF. So my guess is that it'll improve with further updates and in the final release of the game. The FF in GT4 was pretty good on the PS2 so I wouldn't expect Polyphony to take a huge step backward in that respect.
 
All, Thanks for the feedback. At some point it seems poeple began to think that I was trying to acieve understeer. I understand that understeer is a bad thing and slows the car down as the pushing force is also a braking force. To re-state my position, I was hoping that a FF wheel would help me detect the onset of understeer so that i could back off slightly and stay near the traction limit without going over. I also understand that the improved steering angle accuracy and throttle/brake resolution of a wheel will provide improved control. My point was that I can get that with a $40.00 wheel (I know the quality isn't as good etc.) so why spend $150.00 or $325.00 for a FF wheel if the FF itself doesn't really add anything to improve my performance. Yes, it is a game so the FF makes the game more realistic as a pure experience, but as a dad on a budget, that experience isn't worth the extra money if it doesn't improve my ability to go fast. So, I wanted to find out from others if this really was the case, and insure that others considering the more expensive FF wheels understood this as well. Does this make sense?

Thanks again...
 
an1mal_69
Its a bit of a poor show to be fair, compare it to something like rFactor with the 'real feel' mod, blows GTP out of the water.

Lets just hope its all in the 'P' tho and the full game will be sorted. Lets face it, if PD want to make it the best they can, im sure it will be addressed.

What makes me laugh too is the lack of support for the G25 even though thats the wheel you saw them demo'ing with all those months ago before general release
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I don't believe PD ever supported G25. Even in GT4, the priciest wheel supported by the game was DF Pro (correct me if I'm wrong). Even when asked, Kazunori himself considered the G25 as a PC based steering wheel. I do wish that in full GT5 there will be proper support for the G25 since I'm one of those who owns and loves the G25.

TheRisingTide21
In my opinion the force feedback is very poorly implemented into Prologue. However, if anyone remembers, when the original GT:HD demo came out, the PS3 didn't even support FF. So my guess is that it'll improve with further updates and in the final release of the game. The FF in GT4 was pretty good on the PS2 so I wouldn't expect Polyphony to take a huge step backward in that respect.
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When my PS3 died recently I had to revert back to the PS2. What I discovered is that playing GT4 on the BC(backward compatible) PS3 will not give you the same FFB effect as you would on the PS2 (FFB set to Strong). I'm more than certain that GT5P is giving us just the very basic of what PD will eventually implement. I'm saying that based on what GT4 has done in term of FFB especially on tracks like the Nordschliefe and Le Sarthe. Although I have to add that in GT4, you don't feel the weight, the suspension and traction as well as you do in GT5P although these are primarily because of the improved driving physics.
 
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Although there is no separate or distinct settings menu for the g25, all the g25 features are supported, at least as much as the pro or gt wheels are.
 

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