[Update: G29/T300 comparison] Not sure what to do about wheels

[PWM]

TLDR: See the poll.

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I recently upgraded my DFGT+WheelStandPro v1 to a G29+Shifter+WheelStandPro v2, and was reasonably happy with the upgrade.
But I've had some hardware issues with the G29+Shifter, which is stressing me out. This hobby is supposed to be about having fun.

I've had two shifters for the wheel now, and both had intermittent connection issues (shifter not detected) so I think it's actually the base at fault.
The store I bought it from is out of stock for the G29 now, so my options are:

1. Wait several weeks - maybe a month - for new stock.
2. Get one of the first T300 Alcantara bundles they having coming in, and pay the difference.
   
3. Get a refund and buy the G29 somewhere else, at a slightly higher price.

I know that some people think the G29 is overpriced in the US market, but here it was half off, which seemed fair. More like the old G27 prices.

However the upgrade was not as big as I was hoping for.
It's more refined than the DFGT and the pedals were a huge upgrade, but in some ways the wheel feels like a DFGT with a bigger motor - still a "toy wheel" with notchy gears and clanking noise with FFB.

I chose the G29 instead of the standard T300RS because the T300 is a lot more expensive here, and the standard pack only comes with a rubber wheel, its pedals are very basic - more like the old DFGT pedals, and the shifter is very expensive compared to the Logitech one. (4x the price!)
To buy a T300 with upgraded pedals, a shifter, and a non-rubber wheel, the total would be 3x what I paid for the G29+Shifter!

But the store is getting the T300 Alcantara bundle in stock sooner than they expect more G29s, which includes an upgraded wheel+pedal set, and is a more reasonable 2x the G29 cost instead of 3x.


Is the T300 Alcantara Bundle worth double the price of the G27/G29?

• That is still without an H-shifter, which I would like to have.
• I don't know about the 8-speed shifter that Thrustmaster offer either. It looks high quality, but Gear 7/Reverse don't have a lockout.

I know a lot of people say that it's a better wheel but I've also heard some mixed opinions on gears vs belts:

• Some people say that gear-driven wheels are more reliable than belt-driven because they won't develop slack and there's no belt to break. People are still using 10-15 year old Logitech wheels that work like day 1. I've seen lots of people having issues with the T300/T500 wheels in just 1-2 years.
• Gear-driven has less dampening than belt-driven wheels.
• Gear-driven are better at sending subtle FFB through the wheel, even if it's noisy, due to the lower dampening.

• Belt-driven wheels don't have an FFB deadzone in the center - though it did seem very small on the G29.
• Belt-driven wheels are smoother.
• Belt-driven wheels can do stronger FFB.

Though it's a lot better than rubber, I'm unsure about the Alcantara wheel too.

• I'm concerned about the durability of Alcantara because I don't want to wear gloves, and I don't know that it will last like leather does.
• They didn't make the paddle shifters or button box larger to account for the larger rim size.
• I've also heard that people can get friction burns from Alcantara wheels without gloves, but I assume that's only an issue for people with direct-drive wheels, and not something like a T300.
• I'd prefer the leather if it was a 30cm wheel instead of 28cm, but you can't get that rim in a PS4 bundle, and buying everything separate is 3x the G29 cost, which is too much for what is still a mid-range wheel.
• I'd prefer the wheel to have proper PSX button layouts. I really like the layout on the G29 compared to any of the Thrustmaster wheels, and the Leather/Alcantera ones have very limited buttons.

What would you do?

• Is the Thrustmaster setup worth 2-3x the G29 setup?
• Should I just wait for a replacement and be happy with the G29?

The T300 Alcantara bundle is a lot more than I planned on spending but I can spend that if it will last 5+ years.
I'm not that confident about the Thrustmaster wheels lasting 5-10 years like the Logitech wheels have proven to, due to the fact that they are belt-driven, and because people are even calling it a lottery to get a good T300 right out of the box.

 

[sesselpupser]

What platform are you playing on and which games/sims do you want the wheel for?

Personally, since I don't have a PS4, I wouldn't upgrade from the DFGT unless it broke, and I definitely wouldn't upgrade from that to the G29 for the same reason I didn't upgrade from my DFP to DFGT - it's not a big enough upgrade to warrant the price. Ok, the pedals are much better but honestly, since there's no shifter in the box, the only difference inside the base is the addition of a second motor and the rest is just minor incremental and reliability updates, I just don't think it's worth it.

Have you tried contacting Logitech directly to explain the shop you got it from is out of stock and unable to issue a replacement?

Besides that, I have no knowledge of TM products but it's worth considering how much quieter belt driven wheels are. I wouldn't call it a design flaw exactly but Logitech's helical gear drive is poorly designed which leads to loud clattering noises as the axial thrust imparted by the helical gears forces the motor cores to rattle along their axis inside their housing. I'm not absolutely sure this is still the case with the G29 but everything I've read suggests the internals are identical to the G27, so... Yeah, it's not ideal.

You can't deny that Logitech wheels are pretty bulletproof (assuming you get one that works from the factory, unlike yours) though so it's really a question of what your priorities are.

From your post it sounds like you're not completely sold on the TM wheel anyway, I kind of feel like I'd have to be absolutely sure such an expensive piece of gaming equipment would cure cancer before spending that much on it so if I apply that line of thinking to your post I'd already be on the phone to Logitech to see what they can do to help. That's another huge plus, by the way - no one can touch their customer service.

 

[Gunstar]

Where do you live that Thrustmaster stuff is so expensive and Logitech is so cheap?? On Amazon US the T300RS is cheaper than the G29 by $70US and the Integral Pack is only like $40US more.

At THOSE prices, I'd definitely go Thrustmaster. I found a T500RS for G27 money back in the day so I went from a G27 to a T500RS. It IS better but I don't think I'd have dropped double the money on it. Of course, I have since spent more than that in add on rims...

Twice as much $ doesn't equal twice as much fun... but there is a logic to buying the best gear you can afford to buy.

Think about what you feel is important, and then put your money towards your happiness.

 

[skazz]

As a T300 owner who spent many years with a G25 I can say that the T300 is better in every way for Force Feedback, motor power, etc...

The alcantara set is going to be a clear step up from the G29, but in most countries they are competing for a similar price which is why the T300 is the clear choice.

Most importantly, nobody is going to tell you that Thrustmaster has better reliability than Logitech, because it doesn't. I will always recommend making sure to buy Thrustmaster products from somewhere with a good RMA policy (and this is from someone who owns the T500, T300, GTE rim, TH8A, T3PA, and a warthog).

 

[PWM]

What platform are you playing on and which games/sims do you want the wheel for?

Personally, since I don't have a PS4, I wouldn't upgrade from the DFGT unless it broke, and I definitely wouldn't upgrade from that to the G29 for the same reason I didn't upgrade from my DFP to DFGT - it's not a big enough upgrade to warrant the price. Ok, the pedals are much better but honestly, since there's no shifter in the box, the only difference inside the base is the addition of a second motor and the rest is just minor incremental and reliability updates, I just don't think it's worth it.

Mostly PC right now, but the new GT in March is one of the reasons that I wanted to get a new wheel.
You're right though, it just doesn't feel like a huge upgrade.
I've sold the DFGT now though, so my option is sticking with the G29 or spending twice as much to get the T300 Alcantara bundle.

You can't deny that Logitech wheels are pretty bulletproof (assuming you get one that works from the factory, unlike yours) though so it's really a question of what your priorities are.

Yeah, that's just it really. Once I get this swapped out for a working wheel, I expect that the Logitech will last for as long as I want to keep it.
I'm not sure the same can be said of the Thrustmaster wheels.

Where do you live that Thrustmaster stuff is so expensive and Logitech is so cheap?? On Amazon US the T300RS is cheaper than the G29 by $70US and the Integral Pack is only like $40US more.

At THOSE prices, I'd definitely go Thrustmaster. I found a T500RS for G27 money back in the day so I went from a G27 to a T500RS. It IS better but I don't think I'd have dropped double the money on it. Of course, I have since spent more than that in add on rims...

Yeah, I guess the prices are different in Europe vs USA.
The G29 was half-off in a local store, and has been for a while, while the T300 has always been sold at full price.

If they were the same price, like they seem to be in USA, the T300 seems like the easy choice.
Here, I can only get a T150 for the same price that I paid for the G29.


After reading the replies here and thinking about it some more, I think I will try and push for a replacement from Logitech themselves, which should be quicker than waiting for new stock, and stick to the G29.
It's just been disheartening to get a new wheel and then on certain sim forums (not here) see people say how "terrible" it is compared to the T300, when people are basing that opinion on them having the same price.
If it was not for my typical bad luck with new hardware, I would just have been happy with the wheel and not been having these doubts.
Thanks everyone.

 

[UkHardcore23]

Yeah, I guess the prices are different in Europe vs USA.
The G29 was half-off in a local store, and has been for a while, while the T300 has always been sold at full price.

If they were the same price, like they seem to be in USA, the T300 seems like the easy choice.
Here, I can only get a T150 for the same price that I paid for the G29.

Same in Britain, Get a G29 for even cheaper than half the price of T300.

http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/comput...0020!&ef_id=VlHb8gAABYMe7-Ds:20151223210801:s

£179.99 vs £399.99

 

[PWM]

Things worked out in an unexpected way.
In the year-end sales, the base model T300 RS price dropped low enough that I could buy it and then add the T3PA pedals and Alcantara rim separately, for the same price as the Alcantara bundle.

So I opted to buy just the base T300 RS for now, for about what I paid to get the G29+Shifter, instead of paying 2x as I was expecting.
The T3PA and Alcantara rim are not currently discounted, so I can add them at a later date if I wish.

The G29 went back to the shop four days ago so I cannot do direct comparisons, but here are my impressions of the T300 vs the G29.


First impressions: the T300 RS is a cheap wheel.

• I would say that the quality is closer to the DFGT than the G29.
• With it all mounted on my Wheel Stand Pro v2, it feels considerably lighter than the G29. I'm not sure if all that weight was in the pedals, or if the difference is because the brushless motor is smaller/lighter. The WSP feels a lot more top-heavy and somewhat less stable now.
• The right paddle on my rim is poorly sprung. The left shifter always has a very solid click. The right shifter travels further before clicking and either has a soft click, or activates without clicking at all.
• They didn't even get the buttons on straight. The PS button is mounted at an angle.
• Going back to a rubber rim after leather feels very cheap. The rim is functional, but I will want to change it soon.
• There are "rough spots" on the wheel rotation which make a creaking noise, and there is one spot on the wheel that "sticks" if you are turning the wheel with very little force. Not something you would notice while racing though.
  
• The pedals have some left/right slop and don't feel very substantial at all. Very thin plastics used for them.

I really dislike that Thrustmaster are using an internal power supply, instead of a power brick.

• It adds weight and heat to the base, and brings a potentially noisy component closer to your ear.
• They use a proprietary connection and only supply one cable
• The power supply is regional. There are multiple warnings that this PSU only operates on 220-240V

The Logitech power supply is a small external box that connects to the wheel using a standard coaxial power connector, so if the PSU fails it is easy to exchange.
The other end uses a standard IEC C7 power connector so the cord can easily be replaced if it is damaged, or swapped out for a longer cable instead of using an extension.


Now what about using the T300 RS?
Pedals first:

• As mentioned above, these pedals feel very cheap. Everything is made of thin plastic and the pedal set is very lightweight. The thin metal faceplates are just held on with phillips screws that don't quite sit flush, instead of hex screws.
  
• There is no carpet gripper like the Logitech pedals have.
• Mounting holes are in an awkward position. Though there are mounting points on the pedals, which the DFGT pedals were lacking, the WSP requires a bar to be fixed over the top of the pedals to hold them in place just like the DFGT pedals. Since I bought the G29 stand I don't have that bar - though looping some zip-ties together through the G29 pedal bar is actually holding them in place very securely.
  
• The brake pedal has hardly any resistance. It is stiffer than the accelerator, but it takes no effort at all to hit the floor. It will take some practice to avoid locking up the wheels with this - something that I don't think I ever did once with the G29 pedals.
• The accelerator is actually pretty good. It doesn't feel as good as the G29 pedals, but it seems like I have better control. Perhaps that's because the pedals are 10-bit (1024 steps) rather than 8-bit? (256 steps)
• You can adjust the width of the face plates, which gives half an inch of adjustment to either side. Because there is some sideways slop with the pedals, I don't feel comfortable using heel-and-toe with them, so I set them farthest apart which is more comfortable with left-foot braking, and lets the WSP fold down flatter since the gap is wide enough for the central bar.

Overall: not terrible, just cheap feeling, and perhaps even quite good with a brake mod.
The resolution of the pedals is noticeably better than the G29 set, so a brake mod similar to the G29 may fix things.


The rim:

• The button layout on the RS rim is not very good. The G29 has 16 buttons on the front of the wheel. The RS wheel has 9. With the G29 wheel I could reach a lot more of the buttons without moving my hand position. Or perhaps I did not notice because the leather wrap does not have the friction that rubber does. On the RS wheel I can only reach L2/R2. Anything else requires that I move my hand off the paddle shifters. That said, I do prefer the feel of the buttons to anything on the G29.
• The Thrustmaster software doesn't offer a way to remap any of the buttons. So in games that don't officially support the T300 base, there is no way to navigate the menus via the wheel. The G29 software can assign keyboard functions to the buttons via per-game profiles. This makes the d-pad and buttons largely useless on the RS rim in many games, since they are mostly inaccessible when racing. I'm now thinking that I should have purchased the T300 GTE instead of the T300 RS. (same price)
  
• I was surprised at how much I prefer having a round rim to the G29's rim - especially for rally. I'm very glad that I bought the RS with the option of upgrading, instead of buying the Alcantara bundle. If I upgrade the rim, it will almost certainly be the round leather TM28 rather than the Alcantara rim.

The wheel:

• Thrustmaster are claiming 1080° with this wheel. The most I can get is 1030°. If I push through the soft-lock, I can get the wheel to turn the full 1080° - actually about 1100° until it hits a physical stop - but 1030° is all I get before the soft-lock kicks in. If I set it above 1030° the soft-lock actually reduces the rotation to 1020°. Very strange, and I wonder if the "900°" TX base has the same issue.
  
• I am confused about people calling this a "smooth" wheel. When turning the wheel slowly, you feel it bite into every single step on the belt, and it wants to stay there. With the G29 you feel (and hear) the gears, but I did not notice this "bite" where it felt like the wheel wanted to stay in every notch.
• The base gets quite warm and it has a cooling fan inside it. As I said above, I think it was a mistake to put the power supply in the base. That's adding unnecessary heat and weight. The fan is very annoying. At slow speeds (15-20 minutes of racing) it makes a constant high-pitched whine. Thankfully, a recent firmware update added a constant fan mode. Though the fan noise itself is louder, I prefer this to the high-pitched whine. I race with noise cancelling headphones on, and they cancel out the full-speed fan noise better than the whine. If I did not use noise cancelling headphones, I would immediately be opening the wheel and swapping it out for a Noctua fan.
• This wheel has a lot more torque than the G29 - it feels like it is at least twice as strong. I usually leave the wheel at 100% strength and turn down the FFB setting in most sims to at least 60% to prevent clipping, so this extra torque means that the FFB is still quite powerful. On the Wheel Stand Pro v2, I actually feel some of the forces from the wheel through the pedals now, it's that much stronger. Though some of that may be due to the lack of a proper hard mount on the pedals, I didn't get any of that with the G29.
  
• The wheel is also a lot better at subtle FFB effects as well. Depending on the sim, the G29 required a minimum force setting of 10-15%. In rFactor 2, wheel oscillations when idle only started at 16.5% minimum force on my G29. With the T300 it starts at 2.5%. (you normally want to find that point then back it off a couple of percent)
• The wheel is stronger damped than the G29. It requires a bit more force to move, and won't spin as freely. I don't consider this to be a bad thing though, it's not over-damped.
  
• However, it almost seems as though the opposite is true when making quick corrections or trying to catch a slide. I feel like I can be much quicker with the T300 than the G29. I'm not sure how to describe it really. With the G29 it felt like you were fighting against the FFB mechanism and it would make awful noises when you tried to make a big correction against strong FFB forces. With the T300 it feels like the FFB is increasing the resistance of the wheel, but you are not fighting against it. The FFB just made the G29 not want to turn so movements were very rough/notched, while the T300 will still turn smoothly against strong FFB - it just takes more force.
• It's a much quieter wheel than the Logitechs. Since it's belt-driven, you don't get any of that rattling FFB noise (not my video) - only the belt noise.
• Only a PC issue, but what I've seen is that the wheel seems to lose all FFB effects if you switch away from a game and return to it. With the G29 I had no problem alt-tabbing away to something else (sometimes the Logitech driver to remap buttons or change the wheel rotation) and then returning to the game. With the T300 I have to restart the game for FFB to work again.

Overall, it feels like all the money went into the base, and the pedals, as well as the rim - to some extent - were an afterthought.

As long as it holds up, I'm quite happy with the purchase. At the same time, it does not feel "complete" like the G29 did. If everything had been working, I would have stuck with the G29 and been happy with that.

With the T300 RS, I'm already wanting to do something about the pedals - whether that's a brake mod, upgrading to the T3PA/Pro, or buying a set of non-Thrustmaster pedals.
As soon as I have a three pedal set, I'll want to buy a shifter too.
And as I previously mentioned, I'm not that happy with the stock rim. It's not bad, but it's not up to the quality that I would have hoped for at this price.

Now I will probably end up with a better setup because of this, as I can build it up a bit at a time, but I do wish the basic package was a bit better. Even if the pedals came with a stock "brake mod" that would be a huge improvement to the first impressions with this wheel.
After having the G29 and now switching to the T300 RS, I now understand why some people say that the brake pedal is as important - if not more important - than the wheel for them. (I don't agree, but I understand)

I hope this doesn't come across as negative, because I am impressed at how much better the wheel feels when racing, it's just a lot of the things aside from that which I am less impressed with for the price.

 

[skazz]

Good overview

I agree about the T300 budget being mostly in the FFB (belts, brushless motor). The good news is that it can handle pedal and rim upgrades without feeling like the weak link, the bad thing is that you end up spending quite a bit more than G29 money if you want T300+T3PA-Pro+TH8A+leather rim. But I just tell myself it's still far less than Fanatec money (CSWv2+BMWGTrim+SQ shifter+CSPv3 pedals brings you up towards €1700+, more if you need mounting brackets, and you jump well over €2000 if you want a selection of rims).


One word about the belt: It is a toothed belt, however my experience with both the T500 and T300 is that the teeth will smooth off a bit during use, so you should feel the individual teeth less as time goes by. Also the T300 does this weird thing of feeling much smoother when powered rather than when unpowered, which I've not experienced in other wheels.