Was Corvette made worse than it is?

[nd 4 holden spd]

No matter how many times I test it, the Z06 seems far more taily in the game than it looks in real life. Even with the slightest steering movement under WOT, you are sent into an uncontrollable drift. Not to mention barely any other cars in the game are nearly as bad. The other thing you notice is the GTR is a good 5sec faster around Suzuka in most cases, when in real life they would only be separated by around 1sec. Then there's the gear shifts, even I can shift faster in my real life Ute, and I'm not an expert driver. Compared to all others in the game the Corvette probably has the slowest gear changes. After watching video of the new ZR1 (an extra 120hp, and buckets of torque) at the Ring no less, and listening carefully to throttle inputs, I am convinced that if not the Z06, then all RWD cars are far more taily in the game than it is in real life. Is this some sort of effort from PD tomake the GTR look even better than everything else? I'm having trouble believing that the Z06 is that taily, just look at any video of it, especially the WOT corners. What's your opinion, has PD made the Z06 worse in the game than it is in real life?

 

[Stevisiov]

I do get the feeling the GTR while already punching above it weight in real life has been elevated even further in this game. Not entirely surprising though new japanese supercar and PD are japanese and are no doubt proud of the car, its on the box art also not only that but PD acctually worked on the car Kaz himself has driven the car plenty so it really wouldn't surprise me if the boys at PD just gave it a little advantage over the rest.

Slightly disappointing but not entirely surprising.

 

[Scaff]

In my opinion, no.

RWD + big HP/torque + WOT + Corner = Oversteer

No iffs, no buts, that's how its is. They have two driven wheels to share the torque comparied to a 4wd car's four and that makes a big difference. Exit a corner in a RWD (regardless of the engine location) car and you must gradually and smoothly apply the throttle as you straighten the steering, get it right and its faster than a 4WD car, get it wrong and you will have to catch the oversteer.

Hell I can power over my 320i on a dry roundabout if I give it full beans in a low gear and that has a huge 150bhp/147 ft/lbs.

Sorry but I don't find any major issue with the difference between RWD and 4WD in this regard, as discussed previously here and here. No its not the 'vette being discussed, but it is exactly the same 'issue'.


Regards

Scaff

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

In my opinion, no.

RWD + big HP/torque + WOT + Corner = Oversteer

No iffs, no buts, that's how its is. They have two driven wheels to share the torque comparied to a 4wd car's four and that makes a big difference. Exit a corner in a RWD (regardless of the engine location) car and you must gradually and smoothly apply the throttle as you straighten the steering, get it right and its faster than a 4WD car, get it wrong and you will have to catch the oversteer.

Hell I can power over my 320i on a dry roundabout if I give it full beans in a low gear and that has a huge 150bhp/147 ft/lbs.

Sorry but I don't find any major issue with the difference between RWD and 4WD in this regard, as discussed previously here and here. No its not the 'vette being discussed, but it is exactly the same 'issue'.


Regards

Scaff

It's not really the normal cornering ability I'm arguing, it's the high speed corners, and on corner exits when you've already left the corner, you may only have a slight bit of steering lock on, you should be able to hammer it but instead you end up drifting. It's those vital moments on corner exits that seem the dodgiest. On most cars mid corner speeds seem about right, except the AWD cars you can strangely go foot down before the apex even.
Mid-corner- About right
Corner exit + WOT high speed corners- Wrong

 

[Jack]

i agree with scaff! i think it also comes down to what tyres you have it on aswell. ive read threads on here saying that s2's are a normal sports car tyre and should be given to all the cars for a realistic feel....

i disagree. some cars s2's are perfect and gives you the grip it would have on the road or a track on standard / factory tyres. but when you give an m3 s2 tyres then you are 🤬. take a slight bend full power and the back steps out without any real hard change of direction.

if you put rwd cars on r1's then i find it much more true.

 

[Scaff]

It's not really the normal cornering ability I'm arguing, it's the high speed corners, and on corner exits when you've already left the corner, you may only have a slight bit of steering lock on, you should be able to hammer it but instead you end up drifting. It's those vital moments on corner exits that seem the dodgiest. On most cars mid corner speeds seem about right, except the AWD cars you can strangely go foot down before the apex even.
Mid-corner- About right
Corner exit + WOT high speed corners- Wrong

Sorry but its just not that simple at all, its still more than possible to get power over in these situations, if the engine speed for that gear and throttle position generate enough torque at the wheels (which remember is multiplied by the gear the car is in, the final gear and the wheel) to exceed the grip generated by the tyre then it will oversteer.

Take a look at all of the titles that have been praised in regard to physics (so I am talking about Enthusia, GPL, LFS, etc and I would now add Ferrari Challenge) and they all behave in the same way.

Its not just for a laugh that all driving schools (and I'm talking about race schools and professional driving ones here) advocate the use of wide open throttle only when the car is straight.

The Skip barber race school handbook (Going Faster) has an entire chapter dedicated to just this, the brake to throttle transition. Getting off the brakes and on the throttle (even a part throttle) can be an advantage or a disadvantage.

The length of the brake-throttle transition will affect how the car sets its cornering slip angle. A slow brake throttle transition allows the reduction in braking effort to keep in synch with the changes in front-to-rear loading. These changing forces work together over time, maintaining (or at least not upsetting) the overall cornering balance of the car.

A sudden, sharp reduction in braking effort delivers instant cornering traction to the front of the car by suddenly giving all of the front tyres grip over to cornering force. The car is likely to point towards the apex, increasing the car's yaw angle. Sometimes you want this to happen, sometimes you don't. In a sharp, slow corner, having the car rotate an extra 5 to 10 degrees might be helpful - it keeps the car out of understeer. In a 95 mph sweeper, however, you might not enjoy the kind of excitement that 10 degrees of extra yaw provides.

In GT5 terms (and the other sims I mentioned) unless you are smooth off of the brakes and apply the throttle smoothly and gradually as you unwind the steering lock then you are not going to balance the front and rear of the car effectively, resulting in under or oversteer. Which you get depends on the balance and to a large degree the drivetrain. When you are pushing a car as close to the limit as we are discussing here, then over steer on a corner exit is more than possible, and for big HP (and more importantly big torque) cars that can occur in higher gears as well.

Sorry but blanket 'this should never' happen statements just don't work for this kind of thing.

i agree with scaff! i think it also comes down to what tyres you have it on aswell. ive read threads on here saying that s2's are a normal sports car tyre and should be given to all the cars for a realistic feel....

i disagree. some cars s2's are perfect and gives you the grip it would have on the road or a track on standard / factory tyres. but when you give an m3 s2 tyres then you are 🤬. take a slight bend full power and the back steps out without any real hard change of direction.

if you put rwd cars on r1's then i find it much more true.

Actually on most cars the correct tyre in terms of grip limits and cornering speeds is around the N2 to N3, its been tested and they offer the right levels of grip and cornering speed.

The simple truth is, to drive quickly on a track (on any tyre) you have to balance the throttle, brakes and steering with the level of grip you get, and its never as much as people believe from racing games. You simply can't drive around a track stomping on the brakes and then going straight to wide open throttle, well not unless you like crashing (forwards or backwards the choice to a degree is yours).

As I have said in the other posts I linked to, GT5 is not perfect, but these compromises and balances that must be dealt with when driving a car on the limit exist in the real world and all GT5 (and the other sims, Enthusia for example is no different in this regard) is doing is recreating this, and in my opinion doing it quite well.

As for why you can get on the throttle earlier, well I covered that in one of the posts I linked to earlier....

GT5 physics are a serious improvement over GT4, with all aspects of the cars handling much more accurately modelled, particularly that of weight transfer and oversteer. Its also now easier are more accurate in regard to throttle control (power over and lift off oversteer are far better modelled.

Now as far as it being overdone, and speaking as someone with a fairly large amount of track and proving ground experience, while GT5 is not perfect (and no sim is) its certainly not as bad as quite a few are making out.

Part of the issue is that we do not even come close to driving these cars in the same way you would in the real world, and we lack almost all of the non-visual feedback we rely on normally. Lets take the Ford GT as an example, it develops peak torque at 4,500rpm and has a fairly flat torque curve, so as a rough figure it will be at around 500ftlbs at 100mph in 2nd. The 2nd gear ratio is 1.71 and the final drive is 3.36 and as torque is multiplied by the gearing we get a torque figure at the wheels of over 2,800 ftlbs of torque or 1,400 ftlbs per rear tyre. Given its static weight dist of 57/43 (rear to front) and that some of that will of course get moved back under acceleration, lets be generous and say its 70/30, with a curb weight of 3454 lbs that's 1,200lbs of load on each rear tyre.

If we assume that these tyres have a fritional co-efficent of 1.0 with the road (which is again being generous), we can see that under straight line acceleration the tyre is already at its limit (1,200ft/lbs of torque on a tyre that can handle 1,208lbs), the moment you turn the wheel and add directional slip into the equation you are going to be over the tyres grip limit (without ever factoring the new load change from side to side that will reduce grip on one of the tyres).

Then add in that we are dealing with a mid-engined car, meaning that any change of direction and therefore loss of control is going to happen quickly and its no wonder that when driving them you need (unless you have one hell of a lot of talent) to accelerate and brake only when you are in a straight line and on long sweeping corners keep your throttle position and steering steady, with any inputs made smoothly.

Now I've posted the following video a few times (as have others), but it does illustrate quite clearly what happens when you don't keep the above in mind and just throw the throttle open while cornering in a low gear...



...and that Ferrari has a lot less torque to deal with than the GT.

Sims and games also have one other problem that exaggerates this, controllers and to a lesser degree wheels and pedals, allow us to go from zero throttle to wide open far more quickly that we would be able to or want to when driving a car in the real world.

Real world road driving bears no resemblance to how we drive in GT5 (or LFS or Enthusia, etc, etc), take a Ford GT out to the Eigar track and keep the throttle at no more than 40% open at any time, keep the revs below 4,000rpm and don't exceed say 70 - 80 mph and you will be in a situation that most 'spirited' road driving will be for a car of this nature. All of a sudden the GT become rather straightforward to drive and its only when we exceed these kind of parameters and step up to and over the limit that it becomes trickier (very much like the real world).

As for why 4wd cars are easier to drive in these situations, well go back to the Ford GT example I gave above and if it were 4wd the torque would be split between four rather than two wheels and as a rough approximation each would have 600 ft/lbs to deal with. Which is well below our 1,208 limit the two rear tyres were getting.

Isn't physics fun.

Regards

Scaff

 

[AERO_HDT]

It's a tricky issue to discuss because:

1. Nobody here has driven a Z06 around a racetrack at full throttle.

2. Simulation will never be spot on.

I really don't think that the Corvette has too little grip at the rear, I think it has too much grip at the front. After seeing GTP_Sinsemila run a 7'00 lap around Suzuka in the good ol' 600PP days, I have no doubt that the issue of driving the Corvette comes down to skill. It's not the sort of skill that I have, but Sinsemila is the greatest Corvette driver I've ever seen and he doesn't seem to have any issues with it. Fact of the matter is, if you were to throw Sinse in the ring with a GTR and F430 driver around Suzuka, I reckon he'd win hands down.

Having said that though, I'd really find the Corvette to be a bit more fun if it was less oversteery (all RWD cars less oversteery, hehe).

But tell me Scaff, have you driven the Ferrari 512BB around Suzuka with N1 tyres like PD suggests for a 'real simulated experience'?

If a real 512BB handles like that I'd be amazed.

But then again, I've never driven one of those either!

 

[Scaff]

It's a tricky issue to discuss because:

1. Nobody here has driven a Z06 around a racetrack at full throttle.

2. Simulation will never be spot on.

True and even more true.

I really don't think that the Corvette has too little grip at the rear, I think it has too much grip at the front. After seeing GTP_Sinsemila run a 7'00 lap around Suzuka in the good ol' 600PP days, I have no doubt that the issue of driving the Corvette comes down to skill. It's not the sort of skill that I have, but Sinsemila is the greatest Corvette driver I've ever seen and he doesn't seem to have any issues with it. Fact of the matter is, if you were to throw Sinse in the ring with a GTR and F430 driver around Suzuka, I reckon he'd win hands down.

Having said that though, I'd really find the Corvette to be a bit more fun if it was less oversteery (all RWD cars less oversteery, hehe).

Yes but they would be far less fun if they didn't act like that, but you are right that it does require skill to extract the most from cars of this type, and that 4wd cars are easier to drive on the limit (but some complain are too clinical). Strange then that those are the sort of comments and discussions that are made about the real world cars, EVO this month even has an editorial piece discussing just that, the GTR is too easy to drive quickly and as a result is 'boring', while RWD cars are far more tricky to extract the same degree of performance out of, but ultimately more satisfying when you do.

But tell me Scaff, have you driven the Ferrari 512BB around Suzuka with N1 tyres like PD suggests for a 'real simulated experience'?

If a real 512BB handles like that I'd be amazed.

But then again, I've never driven one of those either!

Personally I would not agree with PD that N1's are clsoe the real tyres, N2s or N3 are closer (for grip and cornering speeds). However its worth keeping in mind that 512BB's are from an age when supercars had a fearsome reputation, make an error or don't treat them with respect and they will try and kill you. Sound quite close to the mark to me.

Now while I have not driven one of those at speed, one car is in GT5 that I have done so with. The Clio V6 MkII, now while not as downright unpleasant on the limit as the MkI its still a car that in the real world demands a lot of respect if you want to stay facing the right way. In all honesty the GT5 version of it is far easier to drive on the limit that the real one, sudden lift off oversteer is much easier to control in GT5 and its easier to catch the car when it lets go in GT5 as well.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Jack]

scaff: yeah like you say n1's tyres are correct for SOME of the cars.

what i was saying more to the point is that putting r1's (more grip) is porb going to be more realistic. in GT5 at full throttle round a corner the back comes straight round and is uncontrolable. This is very unrealistic, rwd cars dont feel like your driving on ice at the back.

that was my point. GT5 have got most things right but when you are put in a 600PP class with 4wd on s2's cars that can easily get out of corners and get round corners without drifting, to a 600PP rwd car on s2's its stupid the difference in grip.

 

[Scaff]

scaff: yeah like you say n1's tyres are correct for SOME of the cars.

Just to be clear, I have not said that N1 tyres would be correct (as in close to a real road tyre) for any of the cars.

what i was saying more to the point is that putting r1's (more grip) is porb going to be more realistic. in GT5 at full throttle round a corner the back comes straight round and is uncontrolable. This is very unrealistic, rwd cars dont feel like your driving on ice at the back.

I've never felt that any of the cars are like driving on ice, simply that some of the cars require far more car near the limit and in balancing the levels of grip available.

Go back and drive the RWD cars at road speed and in a manner you would on the road, you will find them to be very docile and easy to control. However as you start to approach the limit (and step over it) thing get far more tricky in a RWD car.

Again a topic that has been discussed here, in which the subject of the 'correct' level of grip and how the cars behave is discussed.

that was my point. GT5 have got most things right but when you are put in a 600PP class with 4wd on s2's cars that can easily get out of corners and get round corners without drifting, to a 600PP rwd car on s2's its stupid the difference in grip.

Go back above and read all of the piece I quoted in post 6, A 4WD is able to split the torque is has to cope with from acceleration between 4 tyres, a 2wd car (front or rear wheel drive) has to split the same torque between two tyres.

The example given discussed a Ford GT and the logic is simple, in this example the car is generating 2,400 ft/lbs of torque, and the tyres are generating around 1,208lbs of grip each.

If that torque is split between two tyres then each one will have to deal with 1,200 ft/lbs (2,400 ft/lbs divided by two driven wheels), which is right on the limit, even the slightest change in throttle position or balance with result in under or oversteer.

If however the car was 4WD, then that torque would be split between four tyres, each dealing with approx 600 ft/lbs of torque. now this is well below the 1,208 lbs of grip that each has available, meaning the car can deal with changes in acceleration and balance much more easily.

Now the above does assume a 50/50 front to rear and left to right balance, but the logic remains the same no matter how much the balance changes. Splitting the torque 4 ways means each tyre has far more grip available to contain it that if its split between two tyres.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Jack]

I've never felt that any of the cars are like driving on ice, simply that some of the cars require far more car near the limit and in balancing the levels of grip available.

Go back and drive the RWD cars at road speed and in a manner you would on the road, you will find them to be very docile and easy to control. However as you start to approach the limit (and step over it) thing get far more tricky in a RWD car.

i agree with the stuff you said apart from ^

as this thread was about zo6 i will carry it on. go and drive on are suzaka. change all your settings back to deafault (but then put traction control back to 0). when you get to the dunlop curve you will see. even with 3/4 throttle the end come round. major lack of grip. this can be done in a 599 etc aswell.

test it and you will see. there should be more grip.

 

[Dazzla]

It's pretty real in some sense. Having driven a Z06, I can tell you the car is very tail happy in real life too. The car is serious business when you drive it, its surprisingly comfortable, but then again its not everyday you sit and drive a car of that calibre.

To be honest, the Z06 in GT5 is one of the cars I love to take out on Suzuka and just do hot laps on. When you tune it to its maximum PP and just go for hotlaps, its immense fun trying to keep it under control.

But I do understand what you guys are saying, alot of times in GT5 you have racing tires, around 500hp and the car will start sliding on curves/turns that it shouldn't lose grip on. It's like that for all the RWD cars in the game if you ask me.

Good example would be on that big turn before the really slow S turn on Fuji.

 

[Scaff]

i agree with the stuff you said apart from ^

as this thread was about zo6 i will carry it on. go and drive on are suzaka. change all your settings back to deafault (but then put traction control back to 0). when you get to the dunlop curve you will see. even with 3/4 throttle the end come round. major lack of grip. this can be done in a 599 etc aswell.

test it and you will see. there should be more grip.

At what speed and gear?

This is EXACTLY the same discussion as was had in this thread....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=108070&highlight=suzuka+radius+grip

...and its rather simple. If you are at a speed that will exceed the level of grip that the tyres have to offer and you are applying the throttle (the exact throttle position is in fact totally irrelevant - its the engine speed and therefore torque that is important) then the car will oversteer. Particularly if you are being less than smooth with the inputs.

I do however know one corner and how its road sped should translate, and that's the 130R, the Z06 has a skidpan result of 0.98g. So it should be able to take that corner at around 80mph (and that's on N2s or N3s).

Off to give it a go.


Regards

Scaff

 

[McLaren]

No matter how many times I test it, the Z06 seems far more taily in the game than it looks in real life. Even with the slightest steering movement under WOT, you are sent into an uncontrollable drift. Not to mention barely any other cars in the game are nearly as bad. The other thing you notice is the GTR is a good 5sec faster around Suzuka in most cases, when in real life they would only be separated by around 1sec. Then there's the gear shifts, even I can shift faster in my real life Ute, and I'm not an expert driver. Compared to all others in the game the Corvette probably has the slowest gear changes. After watching video of the new ZR1 (an extra 120hp, and buckets of torque) at the Ring no less, and listening carefully to throttle inputs, I am convinced that if not the Z06, then all RWD cars are far more taily in the game than it is in real life. Is this some sort of effort from PD tomake the GTR look even better than everything else? I'm having trouble believing that the Z06 is that taily, just look at any video of it, especially the WOT corners. What's your opinion, has PD made the Z06 worse in the game than it is in real life?

I think the 'Vette is fine, personally, and quite controllable. Takes some light throttle inputs to fully master, but the car has never sent into a drift for me. As for Tsukuba, in real life, they're separated by around 3 seconds. That track isn't really suited for cars putting out raw power like a Corvette.

 

[Scaff]

OK I'm back having just put the 'vette around the 130R a few times.

Tyres were N2's and all aids were off (well apart from ABS but that doesn't come into this), I used both the controller and a wheel.

Now as discussed earlier this corner has a potential cornering speed of 80mph for a car capable of generating 1g of lateral grip. As the 'vette is capable of 0.98g on the skidpan it should be able to corner at that speed with no loss of grip and no upset from the front or rear.

Up to 85mph the 'vette is fine in this corner, no problems at all, apex at 75mph and throttle up smoothly on exit and its still fine. So I took the car for a few laps of the track, and as long as you are smooth with the throttle and steering and you balance the grip available the car is fine. In fact if you let grip build slowly it will actually settle into understeer before transitioning to oversteer.

The only time the car gets unbalanced is when you go from a steady throttle to wide open in a brutal fashion and/or hack at the steering. Yes it is a tricky car to drive on the limit (I never expected anything else) but its not undrivable, nor do the rear tyres feel like they are on ice.

Now one thing worth mentioning (and it has been said in a couple of the posts I have linked to) its a lot easier to drive with a wheel than it is with the controller. Much more discipline is required with the controller to feed the revs in as you un-wind the steering, which can exaggerate things. As I've mentioned before a controller will allow you to go from closed to wide open throttle, zero to full braking and/or lock to lock, far quicker than you would be able to or want to in a car. Steering wheel and pedals are much easier to balance and be smooth with, as they slow down you inputs.

Regards

Scaff

 

[panjandrum]

In my opinion, no.

RWD + big HP/torque + WOT + Corner = Oversteer

No iffs, no buts, that's how its is. They have two driven wheels to share the torque comparied to a 4wd car's four and that makes a big difference. Exit a corner in a RWD (regardless of the engine location) car and you must gradually and smoothly apply the throttle as you straighten the steering, get it right and its faster than a 4WD car, get it wrong and you will have to catch the oversteer.

Hell I can power over my 320i on a dry roundabout if I give it full beans in a low gear and that has a huge 150bhp/147 ft/lbs.

I think I've finally learned never to argue with Scaff concerning GT physics because he is always right. I mean this in a GOOD way, he really is always right (or at least very close).

Take this into consideration: I autocross a 47hp 1968 vw bug. Even with the rear-engine design (and, finally, some upgraded rubber!), I can get a rear-wheel spinning up with surprisingly little effort in the corners, even in 2nd gear. I've also nearly spun it a couple times due to that (very fun) rear-engine weight balance even at low autocross speeds. When the weight shifts off those tires, things spin, things get loose. (I get lift-off oversteer, and on-throttle understeer, so I realize this is different that your complaint, but I'm using this as a real-life example of how little power it actually takes to break rear-tires loose in a bend).

Also, this is something I learned in GT4 and then somehow forgot when moving to GT5P: Road cars come from the factory setup for their road-tires. Most road cars probably come with something between an N1 and an N3 tire. Some of the super-cars might ship with S1-S3s. When you move the car to a different tire it can really change the handling. You would think that cars would become more manageable on stickier tires. But often this isn't the case. Most of the cars drive properly and are much more forgiving on a tire similar to what the real-life car would have shipped with. So if you want to feel what that wonderful easy-to-drive, forgiving Corvette feel, put the correct tires on it and have fun!

Finally, I do think that we all have some issues due to the pedal designs of our driving-wheels. While reasonably good, these things just don't come close to giving the accurate control that real throttles do. They are too sensitive and that leads to difficulty.

 

[Kent]

So is this the first real "what tire is most accurate thread"? (and I'd better not see one of those pop up now (created from this moment forward).

Since I don't have GT5P I'm only saying this much more... Great replies Scaff. 👍
Btw, Birthday coming soon and PS3 might be in the works, before long I might have some input for this thread.

 

[Havok_]

wow now that was an interesting read!

 

[santiagomo87]

I'd like to add something regarding the slow gear changes done in the corvette. When driving my car (wich is nothing close to a Z06), i normally don't want to do any harm to the engine and reduce gearbox and clutch wear, so when upshifting, i wait until the revs drop down to the point they'll match in the next gear. This will take about a bit more than a second when going from 1st to 2nd gear. I think the game works that same way, it will take its time for the revs to match (the same principle as heel & toe). If you take in consideration that the Z06 engine is a lot bigger than most other cars, it'll have more inertia and therefore take more time to slow down. Now analize how long the gearbox is, in 1st gear youll almost reach 100km/h, which will need far more time for the revs to drop to match 2nd gear's. Of course in real life you can force it and make it a lot faster, but it's not the best for the car. So I think gear shifting times are very accurate and i really like how it's modelled, makes it feel very real and similar to my driving style

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Well I guess the only way I can agree is to get a wheel. But then surely by your logic the AWD cars aren't taily enough, especially the GTR.

 

[RedBaron]

Yes, I'm saying it again. GT in Professional mode is five times tougher than real life driving. Slightest move in 5th gear in banked curve and you are in wild drift at 250 km/h +. Vette Z06, GT-R 07 and especially Ford GT are good examples of this bad RWD simulation. Overall simulation is very good, but this seems to be caused by wrong skid treshold and overly sensitive gas pedal perhaps. This should be fixed to final GT5.

 

[zodicus]

I'd like to add something regarding the slow gear changes done in the corvette. When driving my car (wich is nothing close to a Z06), i normally don't want to do any harm to the engine and reduce gearbox and clutch wear, so when upshifting, i wait until the revs drop down to the point they'll match in the next gear. This will take about a bit more than a second when going from 1st to 2nd gear. I think the game works that same way, it will take its time for the revs to match (the same principle as heel & toe). If you take in consideration that the Z06 engine is a lot bigger than most other cars, it'll have more inertia and therefore take more time to slow down. Now analize how long the gearbox is, in 1st gear youll almost reach 100km/h, which will need far more time for the revs to drop to match 2nd gear's. Of course in real life you can force it and make it a lot faster, but it's not the best for the car. So I think gear shifting times are very accurate and i really like how it's modelled, makes it feel very real and similar to my driving style

not necessarily, I know GM put titanium valves in the vette to reduce reciprocating mass god knows what else they did like aluminum rods and such. I wouldnt be shocked at a aluminum fly wheel either so bigger yes but it could be a very responsive engine.

 

[Jay]

not necessarily, I know GM put titanium valves in the vette to reduce reciprocating mass god knows what else they did like aluminum rods and such. I wouldnt be shocked at a aluminum fly wheel either so bigger yes but it could be a very responsive engine.

They used Titianium forged rods.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

So I see the update involves more controllability on S1-R3 tyres, hopefully not at a cost of realisticness, hopefully they will be fixing the right parts. Time will tell.

 

[Leonidae]

Well, my short but thorough test of GT5P demonstrated that Z06 was better to drive than Viper, when driven on S3's. But even Z06 that has less power and torque occasionally did the sudden tail kick in the corners unless I used the throttle as if there would be a bottle of nitroglyserin in the boot.. Viper was far worse. the used track was High Speed Ring.

 

[AERO_HDT]

Scaff is dead-set spot on in his assessment of the situation and you really can't judge how a car will feel or should feel unless you have some real life data to back it up with. And real life data can only be compared with driving the car in the game with real-life tyres (or as close as we can get).

The one thing I'm still not convinced on is Polyphony's modelling of a rear wheel drive LSD. There basically wasn't an LSD in GT4, so for GT5P the skitterish rear end that people feel when driving high-torque cars such as the Vette highlights the amount of work that PD have put into modelling traction loss.

Put simply, spin one inside tyre, spin both. Both rear tyres spinning = loss of grip and if you throw in a corner, that loss of grip results in sudden loss of feel at the rear and eventually loss of control. Particularly if you're vicious with your inputs.

Having a Corvette go through Dunlop (a crest) with 75% throttle is sheer insanity and bound to result in a spin if you're not careful. I'd never do it in real life, and I probably can't do it in GT5P with S2 tyres. A good driver with a decent wheel probably could, but it would be a hairy experience!

Are we expecting too much? Is this how Gran Turismo should really be?

It's going to be a total hoot once we get the TG circuit and we can compare lap times that the Stig has done with a real life car against times we can run ourselves. I also find that a quarter mile track is currently lacking because grip in a straight line and drag times are very easily comparible with real life journo tests. What is the Corvette good for down the quarter anyways? Low 13s or high 12s?

 

[wrcsti]

One of the cars that does not feel right is the BMW M3. I have driven a M3 (one of my dads friends has one.) and took corners at speed, the car feels planted as a 20ft light pole. However the only way to get it to feel like in GT was to turn off all aids and to set the LSD to lock, once that is done you're playing GT5p without a reset button.

EDIT: and for the guy above me, the Z06 does low 12 to high 11 second 1/4 mile times.

 

[Scaff]

One of the cars that does not feel right is the BMW M3. I have driven a M3 (one of my dads friends has one.) and took corners at speed, the car feels planted as a 20ft light pole. However the only way to get it to feel like in GT was to turn off all aids and to set the LSD to lock, once that is done you're playing GT5p without a reset button.

And most people who complain about the M3 in GT5 are running the car with no driver aids at all, which is a fairly major factor in all this. Stability and traction control will make a car more planted, stable and easier to drive at speed. We also don't currently know exactly how the LSD is modeled in GT5.

I also seriously doubt that you got even close to an M3's limit on a public road, even if you did take corners at speed. Did you use the entire width of the road to ensure maximum cornering potential, were you using every rpm of the engine in every gear? Both I find doubtful, which would point to the car not being driven the same way.

Even very spirited road driving does not have you using the entire road, nor full throttle in every situation and in a lot of case you will still be short-shifting as well.

I've said it many times before, drive a car in GT5 in the same way you would on the road; 50-75% throttle in everything but a straight line, short shifting and driving a good 10mph below the cornering limit of a corner; and the cars are more than manageable.

Honestly spirited, even stupid, road driving has almost no comparison to track driving. The limits and how far you will push are totally different.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Kryz11]

From many Reviews of this game, almost all point to that the VETTE is nailed right on.

 

[wrcsti]

It was going from the guys house to the highway and taking about 10-15 on and off ramps (they are circular down here, kinda like skidpads) as fast as I felt comfy with. The car felt some struggle at entry but nearing the last couple of runs I went in at around 80 mph and coming out at well over 100 just to slow down to take the next one.

Also you say most of us use no driver AIDs on GT5p, for me it is because they interfere too much and I end up having a harder time driving a car that does not do as I told it to. The M3 in real life does a great job of not going overboard with the aids. You can get it a little sideways and under control with the DTc on (which means they are all on) but take it off and it adds another level of sideways, untill you set the lsd to lock. Obviously I did not want to wreck the guys M3 so I was not doing 100% like in GT but it is quite representative of how it is on GT.