Weight figures in GT5P

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dr Dunkel

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I know this might sound a bit finicky but what is up with the weight figures in GT5P?

I started looking at the figures after reading the post about M3 vs IS-F and in game they weight 1,655 kg and 1,690 kg respectively.

Looking at the weight figures presented by both brand's official pages on the internet the cars curb weight are ~1,585 kg for the BMW and ~1,715 kg for the Lexus. The figure for the M3 is calculated by subtracting weight of driver and luggage which are included in the DIN measurement available for the M3 (1,655 kg - 68 kg driver - 7 kg luggage = 1,580 (and then adding some because the DIN standard is measured with a fuel level of 90% while Curb weight is measured with a full tank.).

Makes one wonder what sources are used.
 
hmm IDK what is the problem.. prob the BMW site weighted the M3 with empty fuel tank and with nothing optional so that it will look light on paper? lol
and for lexus.. with full options?

lol IDK what is happening here..

got this from carfolio site...
Lexus.. 1690 kg
M3.. 1655 kg


this is what i found in bmw site...
M3.. (european version)
1655 KG


this is what i found in lexus site...
3,780 lbs. = 1714.579 kg
hmm over 20 KG differance.. this could be american version? maybe some extra stuff.. like NAV system.. and other goodies? god knows...
 
Jaguar C-Type
hmm IDK what is the problem.. prob the BMW site weighted the M3 with empty fuel tank and with nothing optional so that it will look light on paper? lol
and for lexus.. with full options?

lol IDK what is happening here..

got this from carfolio site...
Lexus.. 1690 kg
M3.. 1655 kg


this is what i found in bmw site...
M3.. (european version)
1655 KG


this is what i found in lexus site...
3,780 lbs. = 1714.579 kg
hmm over 20 KG differance.. this could be american version? maybe some extra stuff.. like NAV system.. and other goodies? god knows...
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Well the figure 1,655 is from the european market since the numbers are not up for the american market yet. But if you convert the european DIN figure to american curb weight it will read something like 1,585 kg.

I actually have no idea where the figure 1,690 comes from. But the curb weight is with standard accessories and all fluids full. Maybe some other standard in Japan?

I just found it strange that they use such different measurement standards. Why not use the same?
 
Equipment level, petrol on board and the market the car is intended for will all afect the weight of any given vehicle.

As a rough example, the US versions of most cars will be slightly heavier than their European equivalent. This is in part due to the US market wanting more equipment as base, but also due to the differences in crash testing. The US crash tests are based around unbelted occupants. This means that they have larger airbags (and occassionally more of them) which add a surprising amount of weight. This coupled with increased side impact protection (US cars are tested with a heavier sled, at higher speed and with an angled impact) could affect the weights between territories.

It's just a case of where the car BMW supplied was originally intended for!
 
legroom
Equipment level, petrol on board and the market the car is intended for will all afect the weight of any given vehicle.

As a rough example, the US versions of most cars will be slightly heavier than their European equivalent. This is in part due to the US market wanting more equipment as base, but also due to the differences in crash testing. The US crash tests are based around unbelted occupants. This means that they have larger airbags (and occassionally more of them) which add a surprising amount of weight. This coupled with increased side impact protection (US cars are tested with a heavier sled, at higher speed and with an angled impact) could affect the weights between territories.

It's just a case of where the car BMW supplied was originally intended for!
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I agree with you to a certain degree. There will be differences in what equipment is included in the standard car and therefore we will have discrepancies. In this case, however, I suspect that PD has used the available information for the M3 i.e. the DIN EEC standard which included driver (68 kg), luggage (7 kg) and the fuel tank filled to 90%.
The weight figure for the M3 according to EEC DIN standard is 1,655 kg.

It seems that PD has used the JIS figure for the IS-F. The number 1,690 is from the information about the car in Japan. In Japan JIS is a standard method of describing vehichle weight. The JIS close to that of EEC DIN but only uses half a tank of petrol (we have probably located the 25 kg difference to the American Curb weight right here), no driver and no luggage.
The weight figure for the IS-F according to JIS standard is 1 690 kg (+20 kg with moon roof).

To compare them you have to deduct 75 kg (driver and luggage) and the weight of 40% of a full fuel tank from the M3's ECC DIN weight.

The M3 has a fuel tank capacity of 63 liters. 40% of that is about 24 kg.

So, then the weight of the M3 by the JIS standard would be 1 655 kg - 68 kg - 7 kg - 24 kg ≈ 1 556 kg.

Please correct me if im wrong.👍


This is why i wonder why PD would use weight figures of different standards.

Let's hope PD do not go back to their old trick of confusing kW and Hp/PS.
 
Gran Turismo is not looking at AMERICAN BMW... they are looking at the dealers of Germany... so dont worry about the american weight of the M3...

well guys not much to worry i guess... i bet all numbers are 99% accurate to home country standards..

i would worry if car had 100 or over KG differance..
 
Jaguar C-Type
Gran Turismo is not looking at AMERICAN BMW... they are looking at the dealers of Germany... so dont worry about the american weight of the M3...

well guys not much to worry i guess... i bet all numbers are 99% accurate to home country standards..

i would worry if car had 100 or over KG differance..
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Yes, they are most certainly looking at German BMW figures (in EEC DIN )and those are as I have shown not comparable with American curb weight or japanese JIS standards of measuring.

You have a good point in the numbers being correct by home country standards but that is the core of the problem, they should have chosen one standard just because of the huge differences in resulting weight. Just look at the BMW M3, it is 100 kgs heavier in EEC DIN than in JIS. :sick: And that is just because of different ways of measuring. It has nothing to do with standard equipment.

I think they should have stuck to the JIS standard for all cars. If they do not do that, American cars will have about half a fuel tank of extra weight. European cars will have that and an extra 75 kgs. All this just because PD could not chose a standard.
 
dr Dunkel
Yes, they are most certainly looking at German BMW figures (in EEC DIN )and those are as I have shown not comparable with American curb weight or japanese JIS standards of measuring.

You have a good point in the numbers being correct by home country standards but that is the core of the problem, they should have chosen one standard just because of the huge differences in resulting weight. Just look at the BMW M3, it is 100 kgs heavier in EEC DIN than in JIS. :sick: And that is just because of different ways of measuring. It has nothing to do with standard equipment.

I think they should have stuck to the JIS standard for all cars. If they do not do that, American cars will have about half a fuel tank of extra weight. European cars will have that and an extra 75 kgs. All this just because PD could not chose a standard.
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you make an excellent point too.. sticking to one standard: but by end of the day.. they want realism.. so they go around countries and take their data...

and if lets say they did one standard.. lets say all cars are measured on Japanese data.. people would complain lets say from Germany that car has a different weight..

well i got to go make a good meal for my family later all
 
Jaguar C-Type
you make an excellent point too.. sticking to one standard: but by end of the day.. they want realism.. so they go around countries and take their data...

and if lets say they did one standard.. lets say all cars are measured on Japanese data.. people would complain lets say from Germany that car has a different weight..

well i got to go make a good meal for my family later all
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Thank you! The whole point of chosing one standard of measurement is to obtain realism. The IS-F will be sold in Japan, the US and Europe with minimal actual differences. The car will have the same weight in real life (given or taken 10-20 kgs due to different equipment levels as standard). Hence, the only way of acheiving realism is to use the same standard of measuring.

For example, the exact same car would by;

European standard weigh - 1,500 kg
American standard weigh - 1,425 kg
Japanese standard weigh - about 1,400 kg

In real life the car would have the same weight no matter where it is, in game the difference in behaviour will be tremendous.

Your objection to using the same standard with reference to Germans wondering why their car is 1,556 kgs instead of the 1,655 they are used to is valid to a certain extent. But the japanese M3 buyer will also wonder why his or her car suddenly has put on a 100 extra kgs from what he or she is used to (when it as a matter of fact it has not) if only the German way of measuring is used.

We want to be able to recognize the data of our cars but I think that accurate behaviour is more important. That and for the sake of comparison between cars, not so fun to have your Audi R8 draging along 75 kgs extra when battling your friends Corvette C6... or 100 kgs extra when battling that NSX-R...

:dunce:

If we want to be able to recognice the data just write it in the way it should according to each country but use the same standard when implementing the cars in the game. I.e, the M3 will have a figure of "1,655 kgs EEC DIN" in the carfolio and then the physics engine of the game deals with that same M3 it should not weigh more than those 1,560 kgs that correspond to 1,655 kgs.
 
I agree that the data of the cars should reflect what is available according to the home country's regs / standards, i.e. if you have to go to "Germany" to buy the M3 in the game, then German standards should be used to define the car there. That said, surely the same should be done for the representation of engine power and torque, so if you want to buy an Australian car it's power would be advertised in kW...

Maybe a compromise would be to use units and, more relavantly, standards defined by the Player's discretion (units) or language/location (standards,) as is already possible with engine power and torque in GT4 (by choice.)

The thing that worries me, as the good Dr. has been eluding to in his posts here, is that the implementation of the data for the cars in the physics "engine" must all use the same standard.

Given that PD are perfectionists (Sony permitting,) we perhaps shouldn't be worried; the conversion between standards appears to be simple enough (I've not tried it myself, mind you) but do you think it's really possible to "convert" hundreds of cars totally error-free?
 
Griffith500
The thing that worries me, as the good Dr. has been eluding to in his posts here, is that the implementation of the data for the cars in the physics "engine" must all use the same standard.

Given that PD are perfectionists (Sony permitting,) we perhaps shouldn't be worried; the conversion between standards appears to be simple enough (I've not tried it myself, mind you) but do you think it's really possible to "convert" hundreds of cars totally error-free?
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Oh, I have by no means tried to avoid the subject of implementation of the correct weight figure into the physics engine. That was the main point of this thread. I fear that the differences in measuring standards are not represented in the implementation. Hence, American and certainly European cars are much heavier in the game than they should be.

The process of converting all cars to one standard is not that hard if you have some basic information about a car, like how much the fuel tank can take, which is important as you can see by my conversions above.
 
I think there might have been some miscommunication there somewhere... lol
I agree that the implementation is the most important part, but the problem is that doing monotonous tasks such as those conversions hundreds of times (assuming, as you said, the data is available) does lead to silly mistakes being made, unless you're some kind of über-robotic slave dedicated to the vision of Yamauchi-san... lol

You know, thinking about it, it doesn't even need to be a monotonous task for people to screw things up! But maybe that's just me... :dopey:
 
Griffith500
über-robotic slave dedicated to the vision of Yamauchi-san
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well those guys working in PD ... they pretty much eat and sleep there.. even creator of GT really rarely goes home so would that make them uber-robotic slaves? haha
 
Jaguar C-Type
well those guys working in PD ... they pretty much eat and sleep there.. even creator of GT really rarely goes home so would that make them uber-robotic slaves? haha
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That's pretty much what I was getting at :D
 
Hehe, considering the amount of tedious work performed in connection with the development of any system I think these people are just right for the work. Very easy calculations and even if it gets wrong by one or two kgs (in the physics engine, not in writing) that would not matter compared to how it is done now with a figure about 100 kgs off.
 
I agree with dr Dunkel. This is a big issue. Yesterday I raced the BMW M3 against the Lexus IS-F in Time Trial, just to compare them and see wich one was the fastest. The Lexus was a few tenths of a second faster around Fuji Speesway GT. BUT, this test was not even close to fair if the BMW without reason was about 100 kg heavier in the game than in real life, due to different standards.
 
VincentVegaSWE
I agree with dr Dunkel. This is a big issue. Yesterday I raced the BMW M3 against the Lexus IS-F in Time Trial, just to compare them and see wich one was the fastest. The Lexus was a few tenths of a second faster around Fuji Speesway GT. BUT, this test was not even close to fair if the BMW without reason was about 100 kg heavier in the game than in real life, due to different standards.
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well that standard is realistic then?


this is never going to end... lol
as soon as GT5 comes out.. we ganna name over 300 cars with wrong weight..
 
Jaguar C-Type
well that standard is realistic then?


this is never going to end... lol
as soon as GT5 comes out.. we ganna name over 300 cars with wrong weight..
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Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean with realistic standard. Maybe it's just because I'm not very good with the english language...

I don't care very much about wich standard they use. I just wish they used the same standard for all cars. I don't find it realistic using different standards for different cars, because in that way the cars will weigh different in the game compared to in real life.
 
VincentVegaSWE
Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean with realistic standard. Maybe it's just because I'm not very good with the english language...

I don't care very much about wich standard they use. I just wish they used the same standard for all cars. I don't find it realistic using different standards for different cars, because in that way the cars will weigh different in the game compared to in real life.
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yeah true... they should USE the Japanese standard of weight and measurement.. that way all cars weight accurately
 
Jaguar C-Type
yeah true... they should USE the Japanese standard of weight and measurement.. that way all cars weight accurately
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Absolutely. Not only will the figures be accurate, they will also be comparable!:)

The Japanse JIS standard seems to be a good one. All oil and colants etc., half a tank of fuel and neither driver nor luggage included in the weight.

I think it is a cars weight by this standad that should be implemented in the games physics engine (they can write whatever they want in the facts sheet as long as it do not influence the way the car behaves). As it is today some cars are implemented with a weight that includes not only a full or almost full tank of fuel but in European cases even the driver and his luggage.
 
Speaking of weight, I hope they include "dry weight", so we can set the fuel load before the race, and of course, I hope this affects the car's handling, tyre wear and stuff.
 
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