weight or power?

[AJ11]

I've been running the nurb ring with my jag at 650pp. The purple racing jag can't remember the name. But I drop it down to the pp cap and it drops a crazy amount of horse power. As you all know I can up the weight of the car. Which drops pp and allows me to put more power in my car. what I'm in the process of figuring out is the sweet spot! And have a few questions.

1. I currently don't have any engine mods on the car. I can buy stage 2 and 3 turbos that's about it. My question is should.I leave them off to keep a low pp. or do I put it on so when I go back to drop pp I have more power?


2. why does adjusting the aerodynamics and weight ballast increase you pp.that makes no sense there already in your car moving them around shouldn't effect anything!

3. On a track like the nurb ring what car is best? A lighter less powerful car or a slightly.Heaver more powerful car?
I believe the most power is 620HP at 14**kg and the lightest is 11++ with 520HP I think. Thanks in advance

 

[jgancherjr]

Personally I would probably do the engine upgrades but not the turbo then add weight.. This will make the car alot more manageable when it comes to wheel spin and the rear end sliding out, which is an extremely easy thing to do on Nurburgring.

*hey I screwed this up, I meant do the engine but not the turbo then decrease power, so you don't have that huge turbo boost causing mis-control, sorry I was talking to someone when I wrote the first message..*

 

[seanneedscar]

1. I currently don't have any engine mods on the car. I can buy stage 2 and 3 turbos that's about it. My question is should.I leave them off to keep a low pp. or do I put it on so when I go back to drop pp I have more power?

you can add the turbo and then restrict the power. this will add more torque, but torque raises pp, so you'd have less horsepower. do some tests, see what's faster for your car.

2. why does adjusting the aerodynamics and weight ballast increase you pp.that makes no sense there already in your car moving them around shouldn't effect anything!

*facepalm* aerodynamics is downforce dude. more downforce = car handles better, which makes a car faster, which raises PP. your aero should be maxed. i max it no matter what. max max max

as for weight, more weight = slower car, less pp. how did you not know this!

3. On a track like the nurb ring what car is best? A lighter less powerful car or a slightly.Heaver more powerful car?
I believe the most power is 620HP at 14**kg and the lightest is 11++ with 520HP I think. Thanks in advance

well, lets take a look at the seasonal time trials. the chaparral 2j is owning. i'm assuming people are ballasting it to roughly 900 kilo and as for hp, i dunno, maybe 400 something.

i think 1400 is too fat. thats a heavy car. i'd go with 11xx kg and 5xx hp

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I haven't tested it too much in GT5, but in previous GT's, all other things being equal, you should be able to post slightly faster lap times with a heavier, more powerful version of a car.

In GT3, there was an online racing time trial series called EZGT. To ensure close racing, there was a pre-season qualifier at a particular track: the goal was to get as close to the goal time without going under it. If you went under, you de-tuned. Anywho, in numerous cars, when you tuned to identical power/weight ratios, but with one version using weight reductions to hit that figure, while the other uses power increasing mods to hit it, the latter was always faster, on all but the twistiest if tracks. As in, Kart Space levels of agility.

I'd say, experiment first to determine which method is better in GT5 (I tested it out in GT4, but not this game), but I'm guessing it should still have similar results to the previous games. Most tracks favor horsepower, so I'd tend to add weight if I have to hit a PP restriction.

 

[McClarenDesign]

1. I currently don't have any engine mods on the car. I can buy stage 2 and 3 turbos that's about it. My question is should.I leave them off to keep a low pp. or do I put it on so when I go back to drop pp I have more power?

Never add weight. If you enjoy the characteristics of the Jag, adding weight will make its negative handling traits even moreso. Likewise, reducing weight enhances the positive traits even more. The track consists mostly of turns, so with proper technique, reducing the power won't hurt as much.

Adding weight also adds to the time needed to reach top speed, so whatever power you lose on the backstraight would be made up in acceleration.

2. why does adjusting the aerodynamics and weight ballast increase you pp.that makes no sense there already in your car moving them around shouldn't effect anything!

Adjusting the aero adds/reduces PP. Adjusting the position of balast alone should not alter PP. Adding weight, of course, reduces PP.

3. On a track like the nurb ring what car is best? A lighter less powerful car or a slightly.Heaver more powerful car?
I believe the most power is 620HP at 14**kg and the lightest is 11++ with 520HP I think. Thanks in advance

This deserves the Engineer's Answer:

It depends.

EDIT-

I haven't tested it too much in GT5, but in previous GT's, all other things being equal, you should be able to post slightly faster lap times with a heavier, more powerful version of a car.

In GT3, there was an online racing time trial series called EZGT. To ensure close racing, there was a pre-season qualifier at a particular track: the goal was to get as close to the goal time without going under it. If you went under, you de-tuned. Anywho, in numerous cars, when you tuned to identical power/weight ratios, but with one version using weight reductions to hit that figure, while the other uses power increasing mods to hit it, the latter was always faster, on all but the twistiest if tracks. As in, Kart Space levels of agility.

I'd say, experiment first to determine which method is better in GT5 (I tested it out in GT4, but not this game), but I'm guessing it should still have similar results to the previous games. Most tracks favor horsepower, so I'd tend to add weight if I have to hit a PP restriction.

I could also be wrong.

 

[AJ11]

I know down force is aerodynamics. I don't understand why adjusting them would change. So if a f1 car angles there front spoiler from 9° to 4° they can't race? The spoiler is already there! And I know a lighter car is faster. but when were talking about 100lbs and 100HP il take the car with the extra HP! Right!

 

[McClarenDesign]

I know down force is aerodynamics. I don't understand why adjusting them would change. So if a f1 car angles there front spoiler from 9° to 4° they can't race? The spoiler is already there! And I know a lighter car is faster. but when were talking about 100lbs and 100HP il take the car with the extra HP! Right!

Adding downforce increases PP, and vice versa.

 

[CorvetteConquer]

It depends on the track.

A tight, small, technical course = low weight

A fast, high-speed course = power and aerodynamics.

That's very simplified.

 

[AJ11]

Ok so add torque drop weight increase aero I'll give it a shot. Il post the different lap times when I get out of work. Along with the car name and actual power/weight

 

[gthead01]

I'll reduce HP before adding weight any day. I would rather manage the same weight through a turn in a slower car, than to appraoch a turn, and have more weight to deal with when I get there. 100% of the time, I will be quicker in, through, and out, with less HP vs more weight. The top speed due to HP loss is not as big, because you launch and decel quicker.

 

[AJ11]

Didn't think of the excel decel thru the turns! Good point. But I'm still worried about.getting burned on that long straight before the finish. (not much of a lead from Mr second place) should I open up 6th gear?

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I'll try and help you to understand why changing the aerodynamics affects PP, even though "It's already there".

View the car's spoilers, wings and anything else that helps to create downforce as more like an engine. When you first buy the car, it has a certain amount of downforce, much like the engine has a certain of power. Like the engine though, the wings and spoilers can be "tuned". By increasing the downforce, it is the equivalent to adding 'more power' to the spoilers - much like adding a turbo to the car's engine, but we're changing how well the car turns, not how fast it accelerates. If you were to minimize the downforce, it would be the equivalent to removing power to the spoilers - much like taking the turbo out of the car or restricting it's horsepower. But again, this is how it effects the handling, not the acceleration.

Hope that helps you to understand how it works and is calculated. Simplified, it's like this:


Less downforce = Slower corners ***** Equivalent to ***** Less power = Slower acceleration


More downforce = Faster corners ***** Equivalent to ***** More power = Faster acceleration


It really does depend on which car you're driving and circuit you're on in order to decide what to do with the power and weight. Generally, if a car is already very light (below 1000kg), I will mostly reduce the car's power to keep the car light. It has been desigined to by as light as possible, and adding 200kg is a huge % to add on to a light car. Normally, it is not designed to be so heavy and will affect the handling a lot (and very negatively)


If a car is already very heavy (above 1400kg), I will generally add weight and keep the power, since the car is already heavy in the first place so you won't really notice the extra 200kg. Plus the extra power will help to get the weight moving on the straights. It has already been designed in mind by the manufacturers to handle the heavy weight around a corner.


If the car is between 1000kg and 1400kg, then I will pick a 50/50 balance between adding weight and reducing power, as you will not notice either affect so much.


This all depends on the car and tracks though. The more corners there are, the lighter you want your car to be (also, mmake sure downforce it very high). Only add weight and keep the power if there are not very many corners and mostly straights (like the Monza circuit), as you will benefit from the top speed a lot more on a track such as this one.

If you're still unsure, play the safest bet and do a bit of both (50/50), like I suggested I do with with a medium weight car.

 

[jgancherjr]

Didn't think of the excel decel thru the turns! Good point. But I'm still worried about.getting burned on that long straight before the finish. (not much of a lead from Mr second place) should I open up 6th gear?

Well though I would not recommend it AT ALL online.. If he try's to pass you on the straight ram his butt into the wall, haha...

 

[Quakebass]

I know down force is aerodynamics. I don't understand why adjusting them would change. So if a f1 car angles there front spoiler from 9° to 4° they can't race? The spoiler is already there! And I know a lighter car is faster. but when were talking about 100lbs and 100HP il take the car with the extra HP! Right!

Yes, the spoiler is there. The difference is how the air moves around it. Think of it like a helicopter or a fan blade; the blade is at an angle and moves quick enough to push the air down, and push it's own mass up (explained by Newton's 3rd law of motion). With "downforce" you are doing the exact opposite of a helicopter; you're forcing the air up while forcing the car down. Now, if you were to change the angle of the blades of a fan, the air would be pushed down at a steeper angle, and be pushed down quicker. Same thing with a car's aero kit, the steeper the angle, the more air you'l force up, and the greater the downforce on the car. Then comes the drag issue; if you were to turn a fan blade 90 degrees, it would just push air around, not really up or down. It's also needing to push a LOT more air, which is what "aero drag" comes from. The greater the downforce you have, the lower your top speed and acceleration (due to drag), though not by much. The reason heavier cars are slower than light cars with higher downforces, is because of inertia; heavier cars have more inertia, because they have more mass. It is harder to push something that is heavier (more massive) than something that is lighter (less massive). What slows down a higher downforce car is the aero drag, or resisting force.

It's amazing what the great Isaac Newton can teach you about racing...

 

[byegad]

I'm using as near maximum downforce as I can, minimal extra weight and, after removing any turbo upgrades, the engine limiter to get to the pp limit.

The Nurb has a lot of corners and effectively two long high speed sections, the long straight towards the end of the lap and the long series of left handers before the approaches to Karusell. High downforce and low weight help everywhere else.

 

[Master__Shake_]

When I race the 650PP races for seasonals, I use a detuned 2J. I noticed that when I reduced horsepower instead of adding ballast, it improved my lap times over doing the opposite. The extra weight makes the car handle differently and will cause you to understeer or oversteer, as well as drop acceleration in the straightaways.

 

[tosmo]

Yes, the spoiler is there. The difference is how the air moves around it. Think of it like a helicopter or a fan blade; the blade is at an angle and moves quick enough to push the air down, and push it's own mass up (explained by Newton's 3rd law of motion). With "downforce" you are doing the exact opposite of a helicopter; you're forcing the air up while forcing the car down. Now, if you were to change the angle of the blades of a fan, the air would be pushed down at a steeper angle, and be pushed down quicker. Same thing with a car's aero kit, the steeper the angle, the more air you'l force up, and the greater the downforce on the car.

Actually, it's not exactly how spoilers work ...

They follow a basic principle of fluid mechanics, and I'll quote wikipedia for accuracy (my english is not "scientific" perfect ) :
Link

The design and analysis of the wings of aircraft is one of the principal applications of the science of aerodynamics, which is a branch of fluid mechanics. The properties of the airflow around any moving object can - in principle - be found by solving the Navier-Stokes equations of fluid dynamics. However, except for simple geometries these equations are notoriously difficult to solve.[3] Fortunately, simpler explanations can be described.
For a wing to produce "lift", it must be oriented at a suitable angle of attack relative to the flow of air past the wing. When this occurs the wing deflects the airflow downwards, "turning" the air as it passes the wing. Since the wing exerts a force on the air to change its direction, the air must exert a force on the wing, equal in size but opposite in direction. This force manifests itself as differing air pressures at different points on the surface of the wing.[4][5][6]
A region of lower-than-normal air pressure is generated over the top surface of the wing, with a higher pressure existing on the bottom of the wing. (See: airfoil) These air pressure differences can be either measured directly using instrumentation or they can be calculated from the airspeed distribution using basic physical principles, including Bernoulli's Principle which relates changes in air speed to changes in air pressure.

What you said describes the basic principles of race car wings back in the infancy of aerodynamics ... Pictures of old Lotus F1s come to mind

 

[iamjajo]

You are correct...there is a sweet spot for balance of HP and Weight.

If tire wear is not an issue then some extra weight will give you better speed on the long straights and high speed sweeper curves.

With high downforce and (I assume) racing soft tires, you shouldn't notice some extra Kg of ballast. But, you will notice the extra power pulling out of corners and down the straights.

Finding the balance is up to you because it depends on how you drive the car. Let your lap times guide you to the best combination.

 

[esoxhntr]

On Nurb, 9 times out of 10 higher HP and more weight beats lower HP and lower weight. It's a HP track.

 

[JohnyPiston]

Mmmmmm strange one this. While I agree with all the advice given I wonder if the science dictates one thing while the reality (chiefly dictated by driving style) describes something else.

I do a lot of laps on the Ring using street cars tuned at various PP levels. The one result that seems to go against the grain is in my 500PP collection. There I am faster in the Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '03 than I am in the Mazda Roadster RS (NC) '07. But the Honda has 282HP and weighs 1113kg. The Mazda, on the other hand, has 312HP and weighs 941kg ...it has more power and weighs less. Both cars have the full aero kit available to them and yet I am almost consistently 3 seconds a lap slower with the Mazda around the Nordschleife.

Could it be, assuming the problem is not in my driving, that in GT5 there are exceptions to the known science?

 

[esoxhntr]

Mmmmmm strange one this. While I agree with all the advice given I wonder if the science dictates one thing while the reality (chiefly dictated by driving style) describes something else.

I do a lot of laps on the Ring using street cars tuned at various PP levels. The one result that seems to go against the grain is in my 500PP collection. There I am faster in the Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '03 than I am in the Mazda Roadster RS (NC) '07. But the Honda has 282HP and weighs 1113kg. The Mazda, on the other hand, has 312HP and weighs 941kg ...it has more power and weighs less. Both cars have the full aero kit available to them and yet I am almost consistently 3 seconds a lap slower with the Mazda around the Nordschleife.

Could it be, assuming the problem is not in my driving, that in GT5 there are exceptions to the known science?

i) there is more to power than just peak HP numbers. ie. torque and power band.

ii) perhaps your driving style better suits the (easier to drive) honda.

iii) remove aero at 500pp it just slows you down on nurb.

 

[300SRT8Fan]

This is pretty easy, weight. The lighter it is, the easier it is to throw it around those corners. Even better is a balance, leaning slightly towards power!

 

[MustangManiac]

At any track like the Nurb, with all those corners, I would take the light weight car anytime.

 

[AerodyManiac]

In respond to your question...
1. No, you shouldn't install turbos, 'cause well, it's Nurburgring... you might not be able to handle the sudden increase of acceleration in the corners...

2. I don't know

3. To me, I think, a lighter car with less power would be more suited to the Nurburgring, in that way you could go faster in the corners, and you can have more time for reflexes

Hope this helps

 

[Quakebass]

Actually, it's not exactly how spoilers work ...

They follow a basic principle of fluid mechanics, and I'll quote wikipedia for accuracy (my english is not "scientific" perfect ) :
Link



What you said describes the basic principles of race car wings back in the infancy of aerodynamics ... Pictures of old Lotus F1s come to mind

Well, yes, but I was explaining it in basic terms... "When this occurs the wing deflects the airflow downwards, "turning" the air as it passes the wing. Since the wing exerts a force on the air to change its direction, the air must exert a force on the wing, equal in size but opposite in direction." - That basically explains what I said in my paragraph, except for the inertia and drag parts. Yes, there is an air pressure factor, but that is a bit complex; I was trying to explain it a basically as I could. Increasing the angle of the spoiler will increase the down force of the car, and the up-force of the air.

 

[Lambob]

I am still on my quest to discover how and why, in street racing , 500/505pp , my comrades post laptimes of 6:47s / 8:31s (Nur/24hr) , some 7s / 10s faster than me, almost every weeknight, and
I run what I thought was flawless laps, and scratched my head and chose different high limited HP cars with weight added, and came to this conclusion:

heavier weight will allow your high HP car to deliver more power, but what GT5 POORLY implements is this: your heavy car is going to squeal and scrub its tires on what you think are safe and secure lines, but you are losing precious 10th~quarter seconds on almost every turn without knowing it. (heavier cars also increase braking distance, and settlement)

recently, I am rediscovering slightly lighter cars, or tuning toes to minimise the scrub, and add some better accelleration, securing good power on earlier exits, run with some higher ride heights of less high speed aerial drag, and this is finally starting to show.

even though I was able to hit the fast straights in excess of 290 km/hr, all those turns negated this, when I was allowing my car to scrub without knowing it.

perhaps my LSD IT was too high all along, and need to get more nimble.

it's a tough balance, some more experienced tuners are also good drivers, and some just have stroke of genius and or luck on their side. Can't win em all.

you can be consistent and win many many races in 1,400-1,5xx kg cars, but the absolute fastest out there, the LFA's, the Elise, the BTR, the Shelby one, the RX-8, those lighter cars, will reign supreme for the absolute fastest time around.

 

[AJ11]

Doesn't max aero minimize top speed? I.e. the veyron drops it spoiler to be lose on the road!
I'm getting two very different a options but each explained in great detail which I thank you very much for. I've always kinda new about downforce but you defiantly shinned some light on it for me!
And I didn't get a chance to play last night. My boy came over and we had some drinks. Il try again tonight. Thanks again.everyone very helpful

 

[AJ11]

Its the jag lm8 race car and with weight up and power up its a good 4 seconds faster. Can't even get second place with weight down power down!

 

[Jubby]

This has been done before: Weight Reduction or Engine Tuning?

 

[AJ11]

There's 200,000 threads I'm sure it has!