What could GT4 learn from F355 Challange?

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bodger

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I don't think this has really been formally discussed before. So let's start. In my view the following things have always been better in F355 Challenge (Dreamcast ver - not played the later PS2 version) than in the GT series. I'd really like to see GT4 improve in these areas:

1. Braking.
2. Opposition AI.
3. Collisions/collision detection.

To qualify, firstly, braking. In F355 if you squeeze the Dreamcast brake trigger hard the tyres squeal and you lose braking effectiveness. Slam the brakes on and you lock the wheels up and the chances are you will be sliding towards the grass. This never really seems to happen in the GT series. Apparently GT4 Prologue is much improved on this front - lets hope it carries through to GT4.

Secondly, opposition AI. This one is much talked about and often misunderstood. I've seen people talk about the 'slow' AI on this forum. I think they are confusing uncompetitive cars (and cars that dumbly slide of the track) with what we really want: Realistic, life-like AI. That means cars that DO make mistakes and DO slide off the track - which they already seem to do. I don't think there is a problem with the general speed either - they can run very fast. The problem is that when they do run faster than you, invariably they are always slow on the corners and too fast on the straights compared with comparable cars driven by human drivers. There is also a lack of 'awareness' when racing at close quarters (cars bumping you off their fixed line, cars bumping into the back of you etc.) Dropping the online mode from GT4 (when GT is driving game that needs realistic opponents just about more than any other) was a mistake. This is where F355 gets it really right - there is only marginal danger of getting bumped from behind and you can fight with cars door-handle-to-door-handle through the corners. Which brings us onto...

Collisions and collision detection. Although there is no visual damage in F355, the collisions between cars are better and more conducive to closer racing. When I first played F355 the collisions seemed way too 'light' like cereal boxes colliding, but compared to GT where cars almost bounce away from each other like reversed magnets, it is a lot more preferable for close AI racing.

As a side point, the Modena Ferrari test track in F355 is a superb, well balanced, little track that you can spend hours circling to set hot laps. I'd like to see that in GT4; but with the Ferrari license issue that's not going to happen.
 
Actually I must agree with you on the AI, even on monza a fairly simple track it took a fair amount of skill to win. I remember it took me hours to do the whole championship when I had it on the DC. I need to get the PS2 version, but not the Pal one because it was badly converted. I want to try it out with my wheel.

F355 takes the driving physics crown, for console games anyway. Well in my opinion.
 
Well, let me tell you, I only played F355 in the arcades, I don't know if is very close to the Dreamcast version... Anyway, it was ok for a simulator, but it was not that good.

It is hard to talk about the AI, collision detection (ethernet, anyone? :)) without playing the real deal, decemeber-long-awaited release of GT4. We can only speculate and show our hopes on the improvements to be done.

I really wish that the AI this time races like an human, that will force an late breaking on a curve to fight for a better possition, that will go left and right so you don't get on his vacuum trail and that will try to block your passage as if it was looking at the rearview mirror and seeing you aproaching, that will try to get your vacuum to get by you, this sort of things.

I agree with the breaking issue.... if you are driving a car and you hit the breaks full power, tires will lock and the car will slide, unless it is equipped with an ABS, which not all of the cars have. GT should do that as well.

When it comes to collisions, I think this is very hard to simulate, it involves lots of physics, vetors and sort of things, not that PS2 is no able to calculate it, but it is already calculationg a hell lot of more things, so I believe that collisions are going to be still a little away from being like real (not to mention that we have no car damage... :O)

just my 2¢
 
it appears we agree on all 3 points ^.^.

braking, AI and collisions are better in F355 challenge than in any available GT game currently, now, it seems that the latest build has braking right with the right tires (road tires).
It i can't really tell if it's as accurate as it should be (on the BMW demo by the way, just so you know what i'm refering to).

AI is a LOT better in F355 challenge.. but it cheats, it cheats because sometimes even if you leave them behind a lot and you drive perfectly, they still manage to catch up to you sometimes.. however, they are FAR more agressive than in any GT game by far. and the racing competition just feels a lot more intense in F355 because they'll even drive side by side to you for long periods of time.. in GT they are just stupid and stick to their racing line..
I REALLY hope that in GT4 the AI is up to snuff, specially now that they have taken out the real competition out of the game (human players online).

Now, about collisions, maybe one of the reasons i still "feel" braking more effective in F355 than i do in event he latest build of GT4 (BMW demo for me) is because collisions, and the effectiveness of sand traps, if you late brake in F355 challenge you'll get punished for it, in GT4 demo there's no penalty (there was in the PAL prologue though, but wasn't punishing enough).
i just hope PD adds a VERY punishing collision mode just as an option for people, who like us would like to play with out having the oposition crashing into you just to late brake more, or use you to corner faster, wall ride, etc.
we need the game to make people use the brake when they catch up to some one, not just try tp zip past them with out any concern.
 
^^^ I agree with everything this guy just said.

BTW, which F355 conversion was better -- PS2 or Dreamcast? How is the DFP wheel support in the game? I want to pick this game up again (had it for DC, someone stole it :().
 
Agree - disagree.

Braking - yes - thus not "braking" itself but "braking distance". Hopefully, from the BMW demo we can see that something has been improved towards the F355 realism.

As the AI of F355, I find it challenging, yes, but in fact, it has nothing to do with AI. They (drivers) are just positioned on the places where you'll find hard to overtake if you get yourself there in time appointed. It is purely matter of calculating in terms of driving model - which is the best thing of F355.

As there is no way you can pass some bends in speeds higher then needed, or some serious skidding and fence kissing/sand trapping will happen, I find it pretty challenging and it is very much a way that GT should go. As we could see, even that will happen in some "lighter" terms.

Collision, 100/100 points. Winner for history, no discusion there.

But, you have forgotten one very nice - and maybe one of the "all-time favorites" - thing of F355 - Magic Weather option (7 different time-of-the-day settings per track). That option would rock the GT to the heaven. I guess will have it in full form around GT5, since recent "2 setting per track" is just a "lighter" version of it.

PS2 conversion is great, no doubt there, and DFP support works flawlessly. Only thing that sucks is there is no iLink mode - if there was one, F355 would conquer lot of GT3's territory back in 2001 and 2002 and even now.

Long live Master Yu Suzuki.
 
ive never played F355 either, but i have just started playing TOCA 2. i think what you have described applies to this game as well. I find myself wishing gran turismo had this or gran turismo had that while playing this game. :dopey:

The late breaking punishment that u speak about, with wheels locking up, loosing breaking power with fade, and realistic sandtraps are there. :scared:

The AI is awesome. racing against 19 other AI's that actually make mistakes, change their lines, and avoid crashing into other crashes, is truely an experience. especially using the steering wheel and with the volume turned up. 👍

i also wish some of the tracks were in GT, especially Bathurst. :guilty:

Collision detection is good to, i have gotten comfortalbe racing bumper to bumper, door to door, with lots of bumping, but there IS visible and operational damage to your car. :ouch:

your also criticized for to much wheel spin off the start. :dunce:
 
Just another complain to GT AI, that I forgot to mention on my post... it is a kind of cheat from AI, I would say... when you are racing some long races, you will pit in to change tires 2 to 3 times more often than the computer, that is IF it ever pit in (some cars just don't).
 
>But, you have forgotten one very nice - and maybe one of the "all-time favorites" - thing
>of F355 - Magic Weather option (7 different time-of-the-day settings per track). That
>option would rock the GT to the heaven.

Ahh, yes. I forgot about that one. Yes, it is very nice. The lighting in general is done very well in F355.
 
ppucci
Just another complain to GT AI, that I forgot to mention on my post... it is a kind of cheat from AI, I would say... when you are racing some long races, you will pit in to change tires 2 to 3 times more often than the computer, that is IF it ever pit in (some cars just don't).
Click to expand...

Use harder tires, or a lighter car. An elise on super hard tires can go for miles.
 
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