What do you guys think the handling should be in GT5? Should it be better?

[Damien89]

I personally think that tyres should have more grip because when you are trying to drift in Gt4 its like at one moment its ok and in an instant your on ice,
and when you do a rolling burnout without using your breaks howcome the car does not swerve to one side or the other?

Feel free to comment on this topic

 

[Dave A]

MORE grip , hell no . The tyre's have issues as it is but this is the first time I've heared someone say they don't grip enough. It's not the fact the tyre's don't have enough grip that's messing up your drifts, it's the transition between good grip, low grip and no grip.

 

[Damien89]

what i mean is that if you have a very powerful car 1300hp+ when you use the stickiest tyres it still spins the tyres in 1st,2nd,3rd, as if it were on ice.
But seriously if you think that the handling in GT4 is perfect please try racing a car and then try to do the same thing in GT4

 

[JTSnooks]

Haha, well you're obviously new if you're making that comment to live4speed. See, the thing is, a 1300hp car WILL have the power to spin its tires up until about 80-100mph if you give it full-throttle without any kind of traction control of torque management. Actually, you're more likely to break an axle without torque management, but that's a whole other subject.

Any 1000hp+ drag racer has the ability to spin its tires halfway down the track even on the stickiest of wrinkle-wall slicks, so that's not unrealistic at all. As L4S said, GT4 tires have too MUCH grip if anything. The problem (again, as he said) is that the transition from static to dynamic grip is horrible. Once you get a tire spinning in GT4, it tends to stay spinning for a very long time. While that's somewhat the way it should be in real life, the dynamic grip levels in GT4 are indeed quite low, and the transition is somewhat severe due to the massive difference in the game.

So, if you're talking solely about dynamic grip, then you may be right. But statically, GT4 tires offer far too much grip, especially rear tires. As for the driving in a straight line with the tires spinning, that's a product of the fact that it's a video game, and the streets are mathematically flat, therefore there's no outside force causing one tire to have slightly more or less grip than the other resulting in your car "squirming" around. This is the same reason why if you take a car with an open diff (Merc 300SL or most of the old muscle cars) out to a track and do a burnout, it will spin both tires. In real life, it will only spin one due to the directional application of torque through the differential and the difference in grip of the road surface between the two tires.

 

[Wolfe]

As for the driving in a straight line with the tires spinning, that's a product of the fact that it's a video game, and the streets are mathematically flat, therefore there's no outside force causing one tire to have slightly more or less grip than the other resulting in your car "squirming" around. This is the same reason why if you take a car with an open diff (Merc 300SL or most of the old muscle cars) out to a track and do a burnout, it will spin both tires. In real life, it will only spin one due to the directional application of torque through the differential and the difference in grip of the road surface between the two tires.

Finally, some confirmation from you and Damien89 that I'm not the only one who's noticed this problem.

I have to disagree with one part of your argument, though, and that's the excuse that "it's a video game, and the streets are mathematically flat." Even if we ignore for a moment the fact that GT4 has some of the best road-bump modelling of any driving sim, the issue still cannot be explained away so simply -- if you steer left or right while spinning your wheels, your car will continue to travel straight and true. This shows more than a lack of bumps and variations on the road surface -- this shows a lack of understanding of the laws of inertia, as well as the mechanics of differentials and tire traction.

If the only issue was that GT4's roads were flat, high-HP RWD wheelspin/burnouts would behave like they do in Enthusia (which has flat surfaces but more-accurate wheelspin dynamics), allowing your car to travel straight forward if aligned perfectly, but going into a slide or spin as soon as you even touch the analog stick/wheel.

 

[Monteclaro]

I think that they GT should have more grip for FF cars, FF cars in GT4 are seriously advantaged in regards to grip and speed.

 

[Dimitrov]

Please guys. Will the next request be auto-pilot or someting like that?

GT4 has enough grip. It makes races too easy (besides AI and all that stuff, of course).

Less grip, more fun.

 

[Famine]

This is quite a strange thread.

"Should [the handling] be better"? Naaah, for a change let's have it worse on a game series that's always striven for accuracy...

Of course it should, and could, be better. But more grip? Not bloody likely. Do you seriously think it's unreasonable for a 1300hp car to spin the wheels in 3rd gear? F1 cars can spin their rear wheels in 4th with only ~800hp, and their rubber is stickier than napalm.

That's not to say that the handling model is perfect - nor should one assume that simply because someone doesn't agree with you that the game needs more grip thinks that it is perfect, as you just did with live4speed.

 

[JTSnooks]

Finally, some confirmation from you and Damien89 that I'm not the only one who's noticed this problem.

I have to disagree with one part of your argument, though, and that's the excuse that "it's a video game, and the streets are mathematically flat." Even if we ignore for a moment the fact that GT4 has some of the best road-bump modelling of any driving sim, the issue still cannot be explained away so simply -- if you steer left or right while spinning your wheels, your car will continue to travel straight and true. This shows more than a lack of bumps and variations on the road surface -- this shows a lack of understanding of the laws of inertia, as well as the mechanics of differentials and tire traction.

If the only issue was that GT4's roads were flat, high-HP RWD wheelspin/burnouts would behave like they do in Enthusia (which has flat surfaces but more-accurate wheelspin dynamics), allowing your car to travel straight forward if aligned perfectly, but going into a slide or spin as soon as you even touch the analog stick/wheel.

True, although what that seems to be from is a lack of front-wheel grip (I remember in another thread someone had hacked into GT4's code on their computer and deduced that the front wheels were given a smaller coefficient of friction than the rears) combined with too low of dynamic grip by the rear tires. In other words, when the rear tires are spinning, they aren't pushing the car forwards hard enough in GT4 to cause the rear to step out, while at the same time the front tires aren't biting hard enough to cause a large enough imbalance between front/rear lateral grip. I actually think that if they would just tweak their static/dynamic front/rear grip numbers they could improve the handling a LOT. For instance, the static grip of the front tires should be more than the dynamic grip of the rear tires, allowing you to do a burnout. But for some reason the front tires transition to dynamic grip while the rears are spinning (unless you do the reverse/forward trick). Whatever it is, there's something in there that's messed up, but wouldn't take much to fix.

 

[Wolfe]

True, although what that seems to be from is a lack of front-wheel grip (I remember in another thread someone had hacked into GT4's code on their computer and deduced that the front wheels were given a smaller coefficient of friction than the rears) combined with too low of dynamic grip by the rear tires. In other words, when the rear tires are spinning, they aren't pushing the car forwards hard enough in GT4 to cause the rear to step out, while at the same time the front tires aren't biting hard enough to cause a large enough imbalance between front/rear lateral grip. I actually think that if they would just tweak their static/dynamic front/rear grip numbers they could improve the handling a LOT. For instance, the static grip of the front tires should be more than the dynamic grip of the rear tires, allowing you to do a burnout. But for some reason the front tires transition to dynamic grip while the rears are spinning (unless you do the reverse/forward trick). Whatever it is, there's something in there that's messed up, but wouldn't take much to fix.

That sounds a bit like my theory, which is that PD took GT3's physics engine and :censored:ed it up for GT4. In which case, they could greatly improve the handling by tweaking a few things -- all they'd have to do is set it back to the way it was in GT3!

 

[JTSnooks]

I barely remember GT3, as I played it less than any of the other GT games in the series. But, I do remember that it was a shock going from slippy-slidey GT2 to the much more realistic GT3. Also, a lot of things were better in GT3 relating to a tire's grip, but body motions and the transition from oversteer to grip seemed less well-modeled. Mostly because controlling a slide was far too easy, although I think a lot of that has to do with the way they set up the controls. i.e. in GT4, if you're sliding and you turn in the opposite direction, it will let you go full opposite-lock. In GT3, I think they programmed in a variable limit to avoid you over-correcting. But yeah, the grip levels did seem a bit better in GT3, so that could be a good place to start.

 

[Wolfe]

GT3's problem was that it was rather vague, way too smooth and "artificial"-looking, and the steering compensation with the DS2 was a bit wonky, as you mentioned. So, despite the fact that it was pretty good as far as realism goes (I'd place it as the second-best console sim behind Enthusia), it felt a bit like driving underwater (which is part of the reason why it seemed so easy to play).

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I'm quite satified with the physics of GT4 than any GT series as of yet, but it still needs more tweaking. The cars are little bit twitchy on high speeds during transitions, and more prone to understeering (for MR's, and FR's). And also doughnuts are impossible on GT4. I'm also aware on the physics on GT2 and GT3. On GT2, the cars tend to drift A LOT! Just imagine my Spoon Integra drifting on Seattle Short Course (I miss that track thou) 90% of the time, and in GT3, the cars feel floaty and the trasitional response on those cars are kinda slow while GT4 is super-quick in which it is impossible to recover.

-> The statement above is just my personal opinion on the matter comparing GT2, GT3, GT4, and real-life. (:

 

[Monteclaro]

I reckon that GT prolouge had the best physics out of all of them, i play Enthusia and Gran Turismo, and when i fired up prolouge i liked the physics much better than Enthusia and GT4

 

[Earth]

The only part of the handling I didnt like was after you got 1000 miles on a chassis the car became way too twitchy.

 

[IMADreamer]

what i mean is that if you have a very powerful car 1300hp+ when you use the stickiest tyres it still spins the tyres in 1st,2nd,3rd, as if it were on ice.
But seriously if you think that the handling in GT4 is perfect please try racing a car and then try to do the same thing in GT4

If you are mashing the throttle with 1300hp it doesn't matter what tires you have, you will spin them in lower gears.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever driven anything with some real horsepower? Like 400+hp? Traction becomes a premium in a hurry with lots of horsepower.

As for the GT world, improvement is always good and until it is 100% perfect I will always welcome improvements.

 

[Damien89]

As somebody already said try doing a doughnut in Gt4, you just cant do it because for some reason or the other the car just doesn't find the nessacery grip to do it.
And yes i have driven 400+hp cars and if use slick tyres you just don't put it in 3rd gear and it spins like hell. If in real life it would do it, if the road isn't flat it would swerve to which side you turn the steering wheel not stay dead straight.
P.s I visit this forum to learn. These are just my opinions and i understand if somebody does not agree with them.

 

[Dave A]

A donut requires less grip on the driven wheels. In GT4 a 400bhp car with racing tyres won't spin like hell in 3rd, a 1300bhp car will, as it should do. Gt4 has too much grip, that's one of the games problems. Honestly you are the first person who's come here thinking GT4 needs more grip. It's the other way round. Regarding the road not being flat and the car turning as the power is delivered that is another problem in GT4, but it's not because the car doesn't have enough grip.

 

[Speed Drifter]

The biggest problem (among other problems) with GT4 is that spinning rear tyres have way too much lateral grip.
If you're coming to a corner with full throttle and your tires are spinning like mad, you start losing lateral grip only after halfway through the corner and that doesn't feel very realistic to me. that's also the reason why you can't do burnouts like in real life.
Also if you do a mistake and correct your slide before the corner exit, your car just starts to understeer and there's no way to get it sideways again. In real life the hand brake saves you in situations like those, in GT4 it doesn't do anything at all before you've gone past the apex of your turning radius, or something

 

[HKS_T51KAI]

There many factors that play into recreating a realistic feel. By far, GT4 has recreated the skyline GTR 4wd system (ATTESA-ETS on R34 GTR) really good, there other cars, but GTR is the perfect example. As for tires, there just to many factors, tire pressure, the flex of the sidewalls and size and width that go into making a good car. it gets worst for racing cars, so many factors.
And no, a hand brake doesnt save lives, its there to keep the car from rolling from stand still.
Just remember, its just a game.

 

[Dave A]

Yeah a normal cable handbrake will not lock the rear wheels while your driving, rather you'll just damage the hand brake.

 

[Speed Drifter]

There many factors that play into recreating a realistic feel. By far, GT4 has recreated the skyline GTR 4wd system (ATTESA-ETS on R34 GTR) really good, there other cars, but GTR is the perfect example. As for tires, there just to many factors, tire pressure, the flex of the sidewalls and size and width that go into making a good car. it gets worst for racing cars, so many factors.
And no, a hand brake doesnt save lives, its there to keep the car from rolling from stand still.
Just remember, its just a game.

Well, if you don't want to use the handbrake for recovering from sudden understeer, you can always use sheer power for that.. but neither one works in GT4 and it's this thing i was trying to say

I don't get it at all why people are mocking different driving techniques, the handbrake for example
There are times now and then when it comes in real handy and i don't see anything wrong with it. What I don't like is the people who abuse it because they're lacking in other driving techniques

Yeah a normal cable handbrake will not lock the rear wheels while your driving, rather you'll just damage the hand brake.

there's nothing wrong with a cable operated handbrake, I can lock the rear tires of my '89 Camry on a dry pavement every time I want.

The difference is between drum and disc brakes how the handbrake works. drum brakes are like designed to be used with a handbrake, but rear disc brakes need a complicated lever system to be operated at all and that makes it less effective.
That's what I've found out, please correct me if i'm totally wrong on this matter

 

[Michael88]

* The car feel WAAY too controlable, I could do almost anything and I would not get wheelspin (front and rear) if I can control the throtthle a bit. I can break + steer as hard as possible to the left @ 150mp/h and the front wheels are still grippy like chewing gum and go around the corner. A real car would lock the front tires and I would dive into the grass like an emergency landing airplane....

Too much oversteering.

* IMO The cars ovverreact to the steering wheel movement, the car follows every slightest movement even while going downhill at high speed.

* I could be wrong tough, I never raced in a race car.